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bwana50
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« on: June 16, 2019, 12:18:12 PM »

I see a lot of discussion here about the status of the draft CAPR 70-1U, how it's still a draft (all true, it is).  But I haven't seen much about the content of it.  Since it is still a draft, let's discuss.  I'm curious what the group thinks of the draft as it stands now.

I like the fact that it allows cadets to participate.  Why not?  As I've said in our squadron, they probably have better eyesight and control skills than us oldsters do. 

I'm glad to see CAP finally admitting that it could/should/might (depending on your point of view) get involved in sUAS.  But it still feels like we're dragging.  IMO, CAP should get it published and give us something to work from and move forward.  We know it's not going to be perfect - nothing is - and we know it will have to be changed and updated as time goes on.  With that in mind, let's go with the 90% solution we have now, rather than trying to release a perfect product later.  Perhaps something like an interim regulation - "this intent of this document is to authorize and give guidance to units to begin training in sUAS operations.  A new regulation governing sUAS in ES operations will be released in ____ months, incorporating lessons learned during this trial period."

The 70-1U is clearly modeled on the 70-1, with similar procedures and restrictions.  Does it need to be that cumbersome?  IMO, no.  Perhaps the FAA serves as a model here:  Part 107 training is less detailed and Part 107 operations less regulated than their Part 61 cousins.  CAP could do the same.  Branching off from that, the intent appears to be to treat sUAS as an air asset, complete with FROs, etc.  Should it be?  Or should it be considered a ground asset that happens to partially operate in the air?  (Remember, the UASMP and UAST are on the ground.)  Changing our mindset to the latter would probably streamline the process.

Overall rating:  thumbs up.

What are your thoughts?
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sardak
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« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2019, 03:55:01 PM »

Quote
Branching off from that, the intent appears to be to treat sUAS as an air asset, complete with FROs, etc.  Should it be?  Or should it be considered a ground asset that happens to partially operate in the air?
By FAA definition, an sUAS is an aircraft that operates in the National Airspace. It operates 100% in the air, the fact that the crew is on the ground doesn't change that. CAP needs to treat sUAS as aircraft.

Mike
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CAP9907
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« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2019, 11:15:19 PM »

Quote
Branching off from that, the intent appears to be to treat sUAS as an air asset, complete with FROs, etc.  Should it be?  Or should it be considered a ground asset that happens to partially operate in the air?
By FAA definition, an sUAS is an aircraft that operates in the National Airspace. It operates 100% in the air, the fact that the crew is on the ground doesn't change that. CAP needs to treat sUAS as aircraft.

Mike

^^ this
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etodd
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« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2019, 11:28:48 PM »

Dittos to the above.  A drone falling from the sky can kill someone. We have to take all this very seriously. Whether its a training mission or an actual mission for a customer, we are operating using Mission Numbers, and as long as we are in uniform and following the rules are covered by the same insurance protections as we are when flying a C-182.

The whole process of ORMs, and  release by FRO, is to explicitly  keep safety at the forefront and not encourage "fun flying".

Cadets can be included, and encouraged. But it will be with Cadets who are of the caliber to fulfill all the many SQTR requirements. Only a few will be willing to do this. Its not ever going to be "hey lets have fun flying drones".   No one in my Wing touches a drone until they have completed all the pre-requisites.

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etodd
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« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2019, 12:16:55 AM »


 IMO, CAP should get it published and give us something to work from and move forward.


Well "if your Wing" is rolling out the Program like most others have, then your Wing Commander should be relaying the message on down to "consider it published" and get down to work.

We have been given most everything we need, there are some Wings who have already trained more than two dozen sUAS Mission Pilots, and are ready for actual Missions.  Some Wings are still sitting out. Its up to the Wing Commanders as to when they want to get involved.
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« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2019, 01:27:54 AM »




 IMO, CAP should get it published and give us something to work from and move forward.


Well "if your Wing" is rolling out the Program like most others have, then your Wing Commander should be relaying the message on down to "consider it published" and get down to work.

Except, of course, that's not how it works . That's not how any of this works.


Wing Commmanders are waiting on legitimate published guidance, not drafts. You know, things that have been coordinated, staffed, vetted and published as the directives of the National Commander.

Wishing something to be true doesn't put the legal authority of the corporation behind it until the General's signature goes on it. Until then, you're operating in the "avoid" region of the height-velocity diagram.

I have been in a situation where the word "indemnification" came up (multiple times), and my name (among others) was on a lawsuit as a result of my participation in CAP. It was my adherance to the legitimately published orders of the National Commander that was the difference between having legal representation for my actions on behalf of the corporation, or having my pants sued off me. I kind of like my possessions and my bank account.



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CAP9907
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« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2019, 01:43:49 AM »




 IMO, CAP should get it published and give us something to work from and move forward.


Well "if your Wing" is rolling out the Program like most others have, then your Wing Commander should be relaying the message on down to "consider it published" and get down to work.

Except, of course, that's not how it works . That's not how any of this works.


Wing Commmanders are waiting on legitimate published guidance, not drafts. You know, things that have been coordinated, staffed, vetted and published as the directives of the National Commander.

Wishing something to be true doesn't put the legal authority of the corporation behind it until the General's signature goes on it. Until then, you're operating in the "avoid" region of the height-velocity diagram.

I have been in a situation where the word "indemnification" came up (multiple times), and my name (among others) was on a lawsuit as a result of my participation in CAP. It was my adherance to the legitimately published orders of the National Commander that was the difference between having legal representation for my actions on behalf of the corporation, or having my pants sued off me. I kind of like my possessions and my bank account.

Can't agree more.. I suppose it's like this:

Let's say i'm an Incident Commander at a live Mission, say it's SAR/ELT mission 19M1999. I have Members with a CAP UAS that come to my command post and want to help search an area. Today, I thank them for their interest and ask them to leave. Why do I do this??  See above... if that UAS crashes into a park and injures a child, I personally am on the hook for allowing that.

For those of you training now, what happens to YOU when conducting your 10 minute flights if that drone malfunctions and hurts somebody? Flies out of control into a C-172?

The liability here will not be mine, because you're not working on my mission...  the liability well could be yours. A non-approved 'draft' memorandum aint gonna help you. Some food for thought, YMMV.

~9907
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etodd
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« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2019, 02:00:46 AM »



Wing Commmanders are waiting on legitimate published guidance, not drafts. You know, things that have been coordinated, staffed, vetted and published as the directives of the National Commander.


Ah yes, sorry I wasn't more explicit. Yes, the 30 or more Wing Commanders who are indeed already rolling this out ARE NOT doing it "on their own".  This is indeed all coming down from National Hdqs, and the National Commander.  Just this week  National DO, John “Moose” Desmarais, gave a great webinar outlining how all this has been rolling out. (I'm going to assume you would consider him to be authoritative.)

Again ... if your Wing isn't rolling out yet, this whole sUAS Forum isn't for you. Your time will come later.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 02:07:50 AM by etodd » Report to moderator   Logged
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etodd
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« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2019, 02:04:29 AM »


Let's say i'm an Incident Commander at a live Mission, say it's SAR/ELT mission 19M1999. I have Members with a CAP UAS that come to my command post and want to help search an area.


The should not happen. CAP members do not self deploy.  They should never leave their home unless they have a Mission number and Sorties with personnel and aircraft assigned to that Mission.  You don't just "show up". You would be correct in sending them home.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2019, 02:09:07 AM by etodd » Report to moderator   Logged
MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO

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Capmonkey
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« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2019, 02:18:13 AM »




 IMO, CAP should get it published and give us something to work from and move forward.


Well "if your Wing" is rolling out the Program like most others have, then your Wing Commander should be relaying the message on down to "consider it published" and get down to work.

Except, of course, that's not how it works . That's not how any of this works.


Wing Commmanders are waiting on legitimate published guidance, not drafts. You know, things that have been coordinated, staffed, vetted and published as the directives of the National Commander.

Wishing something to be true doesn't put the legal authority of the corporation behind it until the General's signature goes on it. Until then, you're operating in the "avoid" region of the height-velocity diagram.

I have been in a situation where the word "indemnification" came up (multiple times), and my name (among others) was on a lawsuit as a result of my participation in CAP. It was my adherance to the legitimately published orders of the National Commander that was the difference between having legal representation for my actions on behalf of the corporation, or having my pants sued off me. I kind of like my possessions and my bank account.

Can't agree more.. I suppose it's like this:

Let's say i'm an Incident Commander at a live Mission, say it's SAR/ELT mission 19M1999. I have Members with a CAP UAS that come to my command post and want to help search an area. Today, I thank them for their interest and ask them to leave. Why do I do this??  See above... if that UAS crashes into a park and injures a child, I personally am on the hook for allowing that.

For those of you training now, what happens to YOU when conducting your 10 minute flights if that drone malfunctions and hurts somebody? Flies out of control into a C-172?

The liability here will not be mine, because you're not working on my mission...  the liability well could be yours. A non-approved 'draft' memorandum aint gonna help you. Some food for thought, YMMV.

~9907

I agree with this wholeheartedly
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etodd
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« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2019, 02:23:06 AM »


I agree with this wholeheartedly

You must have missed my answer above:

The should not happen. CAP members do not self deploy.  They should never leave their home unless they have a Mission number and Sorties with personnel and aircraft assigned to that Mission.  You don't just "show up". You would be correct in sending them home.

Some are looking for problems that have already been answered over decades in other areas of CAP. You don't just show up.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO

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Capmonkey
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« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2019, 02:26:23 AM »


I agree with this wholeheartedly

You must have missed my answer above:

The should not happen. CAP members do not self deploy.  They should never leave their home unless they have a Mission number and Sorties with personnel and aircraft assigned to that Mission.  You don't just "show up". You would be correct in sending them home.

Some are looking for problems that have already been answered over decades in other areas of CAP. You don't just show up.

We still shouldn't be following drafts nonetheless..
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etodd
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« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2019, 02:31:09 AM »


We still shouldn't be following drafts nonetheless..


When your Wing starts the Program and begins using these draft docs, I'd enjoy being CC'ed on your emails back and forth to your Wing Commander discussing this. Maybe you will be the one ... that gets a Wing to stop. Might be the impetus Hdqs needs to delete the word draft.
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CAP9907
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« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2019, 02:31:43 AM »


Let's say i'm an Incident Commander at a live Mission, say it's SAR/ELT mission 19M1999. I have Members with a CAP UAS that come to my command post and want to help search an area.


The should not happen. CAP members do not self deploy.  They should never leave their home unless they have a Mission number and Sorties with personnel and aircraft assigned to that Mission.  You don't just "show up". You would be correct in sending them home.

I well know this and (you should well know) that self-deploying was not the issue, although it happens far too often for my comfort..

My issue is: how do these sUAS even leave the ground for training? There must be a mission number and symbol to document this training as well as some liability protection... or are those also in draft form?
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etodd
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« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2019, 02:37:20 AM »


My issue is: how do these sUAS even leave the ground for training? There must be a mission number and symbol to document this training as well as some liability protection... or are those also in draft form?

My Wing has assigned a Mission Number and symbol.  Yes.  And we document (on paper) sorties and flights. Hdqs has specifically told us we are covered with liability protection.

You folks obviously don't trust what I say (understandable). Why are you not emailing National DO, John “Moose” Desmarais all these questions? Let us know what he says.
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Capmonkey
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« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2019, 02:37:58 AM »


We still shouldn't be following drafts nonetheless..


When your Wing starts the Program and begins using these draft docs, I'd enjoy being CC'ed on your emails back and forth to your Wing Commander discussing this. Maybe you will be the one ... that gets a Wing to stop. Might be the impetus Hdqs needs to delete the word draft.

You'd be the last to be CC'd.
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CAP9907
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« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2019, 02:39:48 AM »

ok, ok.... civil please. I'm gonna take a step back and return to this in the AM... suggest we all do
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« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2019, 02:40:57 AM »

Sorry about that.
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etodd
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« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2019, 02:42:10 AM »

ok, ok.... civil please

Oh that was ok.  I was joking about the CC, knowing it wouldn't happen. Its all been good valid points of discussion.  :)
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etodd
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« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2019, 02:43:41 AM »

But I was serious about emailing National DO, John “Moose” Desmarais, or anyone else at National. Some of you will not believe any of this until you hear it from the top of the chain. Understandable.
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« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2019, 02:44:45 AM »

Chain of Command anyone?
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etodd
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« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2019, 03:08:01 AM »

Chain of Command anyone?

Yes, please. Its the CAP way.  Everything I have done in this Program has come from Hdqs. Every ... single ... thing.

My Wing has made me the DO for the Wing sUAS Program. Every single thing I do comes from Hqds, through Region, to Wing, to me.

i's dotted and t's crossed.
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« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2019, 03:15:44 AM »

Chain of Command anyone?

Yes, please. Its the CAP way.  Everything I have done in this Program has come from Hdqs. Every ... single ... thing.

My Wing has made me the DO for the Wing sUAS Program. Every single thing I do comes from Hqds, through Region, to Wing, to me.

i's dotted and t's crossed.

Yet you suggested to email NHQ directly...
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etodd
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« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2019, 04:15:16 AM »



Yet you suggested to email NHQ directly...


... for those here who continue to think I'm running wild renegade "on my own", and do not believe its coming down from Hdqs.

One would think those folks would get tired of months of arguing with me and just go ahead and get the answers from on high. LOL
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« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2019, 04:17:10 AM »



Yet you suggested to email NHQ directly...


... for those here who continue to think I'm running wild renegade "on my own", and do not believe its coming down from Hdqs.

One would think those folks would get tired of months of arguing with me and just go ahead and get the answers from on high. LOL

Or we're smart enough to wait for NHQ...
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etodd
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« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2019, 04:29:51 AM »



Yet you suggested to email NHQ directly...


... for those here who continue to think I'm running wild renegade "on my own", and do not believe its coming down from Hdqs.

One would think those folks would get tired of months of arguing with me and just go ahead and get the answers from on high. LOL

Or we're smart enough to wait for NHQ...

Or just don't want to get the email confirming everything I've been saying here for months. ;)
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etodd
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« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2019, 04:42:52 AM »


I like the fact that it allows cadets to participate.  Why not?  As I've said in our squadron, they probably have better eyesight and control skills than us oldsters do. 


Often the control skills are minimal.  Had a customer (outside of CAP) that wanted a vertical of 180 acre site. I flew it yesterday at 400 feet and it took nearly 400 photos. Programed the flight lines at home on my computer in Drone Deploy online.  Onsite, adjusted camera and everything in DJI Go 4, then opened the DroneDeploy app.  Opened the presaved file, pressed fly.  The drone starts up, takes off, flies the entire site, then auto lands and shuts down.  I held the controller "just in case" I needed to take over. But my thumbs never moved.  Total auto operation.  Such will be many, if not most, of CAPS flights for FEMA and others. Grid searches or survey images, programmed in. 

Learning to "fly a drone" is important. But in typical usage, there is so much more to learn and know.
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Fester
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« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2019, 06:50:55 AM »



Yet you suggested to email NHQ directly...


... for those here who continue to think I'm running wild renegade "on my own", and do not believe its coming down from Hdqs.

One would think those folks would get tired of months of arguing with me and just go ahead and get the answers from on high. LOL

Or we're smart enough to wait for NHQ...

THIS.  There is NO WAY I am doing anything that poses the risk of liability unless I see a vetted, approved and final regulation.  Not a draft.
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« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2019, 01:30:34 PM »



Yet you suggested to email NHQ directly...


... for those here who continue to think I'm running wild renegade "on my own", and do not believe its coming down from Hdqs.

One would think those folks would get tired of months of arguing with me and just go ahead and get the answers from on high. LOL

Or we're smart enough to wait for NHQ...

THIS.  There is NO WAY I am doing anything that poses the risk of liability unless I see a vetted, approved and final regulation.  Not a draft.

^^ +1
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etodd
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« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2019, 02:23:08 PM »


THIS.  There is NO WAY I am doing anything that poses the risk of liability unless I see a vetted, approved and final regulation.  Not a draft.

Then don't.  Simple as that.

As I've said many times here, this sUAS Forum is information for members in Wings that have everything approved by Hdqs to move forward, and are doing so.  Nothing here applies to your Wing yet.

The Uniform Forum is not my sandbox. ;)
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jeders
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« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2019, 09:04:01 PM »

I think we're done with this one for now.

If anyone has some relevant discussion about the CONTENT of the proposed 70-1U, then let one of the mods know and we will consider reopening this thread. In the meantime, everyone hit the showers.
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