International Travel

Started by CdnNorthstar, June 03, 2019, 09:07:04 pm

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CdnNorthstar

We are relatively new squadron in a border town.  Our sister city in Canada has Bushplane Museum we would like to visit.  We have been looking for what seems forever, but can't find any guidelines for international travel. 

Anyone have any ideas of what we might need to do to get things started?

Thanks
Lt Gerald Boire
Commander, Chippewa County Composite Squadron

Ned

Take a look at the CAPR 60-1 Paragraph 8.7.8, which talks about international exchanges. 

For Canada, it looks like only the wing commander's approval is required.

But read the section carefully.

But absolutely seems like a good idea and the cadets should enjoy it.


Ned Lee
Col, CAP
National Cadet Program Manager

JacobAnn

I have been to the Bush Plane Museum on the Canadian side.  It is an awesome place to visit and will be well worth the effort.

xyzzy

I once planned a school trip to a planetarium in Canada. We ended up selecting a planetarium in Plattsburgh NY instead, but I recall a few bits if information, and knew some other teachers who did do field trips to Canada. A few thoughts.

  • The usual requirement for all travelers to have passports is relaxed for organized youth groups, but at least birth certificates will be needed. Try to get one of your senior members who attends nearly every meeting become a notary public well in advance, both for permission slips, and to assist airmen who need to obtain birth certificates. Don't just think about what it takes to get a birth certificate in your state; airmen will have been born lots of places. And check the latest border crossing rules, don't take my word for it.

  • Some of your airmen may be aliens who are lawful permanent residents or otherwise allowed to stay in the US for long periods. Their border crossing requirements, in both directions, will be different.

  • Have the notary, or better still, wing lawyer, review any permission slip. It's safer to have it notarized, and any advice you find on the internet about what wording to add for the notary to complete is wrong.

  • The uniform regulation 39-1 para. 1.2.6 begins "1.2.6. Overseas. Most foreign governments prohibit the wear of military uniforms by visitors." Canada isn't overseas, but it is foreign. The simple approach would be to wear civilian clothing.


Eclipse

Or you could just go there by your self, or with a couple of friends and enjoy yourself.

Presumably you're referring to this?: http://www.bushplane.com/

Honestly, I see little advantage and lots of hassle trying to make this a CAP activity,
which literally becomes a mini-IACE just to drive a couple hours across the bridge.



Eclipse

Quote from: xyzzy on June 04, 2019, 02:12:59 pm
The usual requirement for all travelers to have passports is relaxed for organized youth groups, but at least birth certificates will be needed. Try to get one of your senior members who attends nearly every meeting become a notary public well in advance, both for permission slips, and to assist airmen who need to obtain birth certificates. Don't just think about what it takes to get a birth certificate in your state; airmen will have been born lots of places. And check the latest border crossing rules, don't take my word for it.


Adults will still need a passport, Nexus card, etc., under 16 you just need proof citizenship (though personally I would not take my kids, or anyone else's, out of the country without an actual passport in this day and age (especially someone else'e), but what is a notary going to do?



CdnNorthstar

Thank you to all for your excellent responses.  Especially Ned for the Regulation.  This is the information I need.
Lt Gerald Boire
Commander, Chippewa County Composite Squadron

Eclipse

Quote from: CdnNorthstar on June 04, 2019, 03:48:46 pm
Thank you to all for your excellent responses.  Especially Ned for the Regulation.  This is the information I need.


What you're asking about is not an Exchange, and it's not necessary for a drive across a bridge.

If your parents have passports and you're under 16, you could jump in your car and just go.

If other people in the unit want to check it out, they can do the same.  Zero need for approvals or coordination.




TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on June 04, 2019, 03:57:01 pm
What you're asking about is not an Exchange, and it's not necessary for a drive across a bridge.

Zero need for approvals or coordination.


Correct. This is not an exchange; it's a field trip. There is no "receiving unit" or transfer of supervisory responsibility.

Per regulation, you do not need HHQ approval to conduct a field trip, regardless as to where that field trip goes. The CPP elements of CAPR 60-2 apply (with specific emphasis on supervision and overnight activity planning). The CAPF 60-80 Permission Slip must be used.

Similar elements apply under the regulation regarding hosting from the local unit in another state (e.g., a field trip from New York down to South Carolina). In the example, it's an activity hosted by a New York unit traveling to another state (not another Wing).

We should caution the differences between mandate and best practice.

Eclipse

^ It's not an Exchange, but what I meant is that the hassle of what is needed isn't worth the
effort when you can just go there without the drag of CAP.

While it may be "just across the bridge", this would still need NHQ approval since it is another country.



xyzzy

Quote from: Eclipse on June 04, 2019, 02:34:33 pm
...but what is a notary going to do?


It isn't necessarily required, but many consider it a best practice that the signature of the parents on permission slips be notarized. Adults who lack a passport may need to order birth certificates or marriage licenses before applying for the passports, and some states require that the order form for the vital records be notarized. Cadets who will be traveling with just a birth certificate may need to obtain it, and the order form for the birth certificate may need notarization.

Eclipse

Notarizing signatures has never been a CAP requirement, let's not even insinuate it as a "best practice"
it's wholly unnecessary.

As to the parents, that's not CAP's problem, and also something I've never seen at the DMV, CBP, whatever.
We're living in a world now where you can get Pre-Check at Staples.

Those notary stamps are rusty for a reason.

With that said...

You are making the case why this should not be a CAP activity and they should just go a normal tourists.




xyzzy

Quote from: Eclipse on June 04, 2019, 10:41:49 pm
Notarizing signatures has never been a CAP requirement, let's not even insinuate it as a "best practice"
it's wholly unnecessary.

As to the parents, that's not CAP's problem, and also something I've never seen at the DMV, CBP, whatever.
We're living in a world now where you can get Pre-Check at Staples.

Those notary stamps are rusty for a reason.

With that said...

You are making the case why this should not be a CAP activity and they should just go a normal tourists.


CAP does not normally require notarization of permission slips, nor should it. But it is considered a best practice to have a notarized permission document when taking a minor across a border unless the minor is accompanied by both parents.

As for notarization being outdated, if your an adult US citizen who was born in California, and you don't have a birth certificate, you're not getting a birth certificate without either using a notary, or going in person to the appropriate county office; without the birth certificate you're not getting a passport. Presumably a person living near the Canadian border would not care for the in-person option.

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on June 04, 2019, 06:38:54 pm
While it may be "just across the bridge", this would still need NHQ approval since it is another country.


Can we have the regulatory citation on that?

It's not CAPR 60-1, 8.7.8.2.


Eclipse

No.  I missed "overseas" in the "related policies", however honestly, common sense would say that
at a minimum one would consult NHQ before taking cadets to another country, even if it's "just"
Canada or Mexico.

I'm not buying the notary stuff as it's got nothing to do with CAP, however the point about having minors
across a border, especially these days, is salient.



TheSkyHornet

No disagreement. But again, best practice and mandate are different, and carry different consequences/outcomes.

I agree with you on the notary part. I don't think that really carries a lot of weight. It won't change the CAP aspect.

Just have the appropriate paperwork, notify the appropriate people, and do your homework. It'll save you hassles at the border in either direction.

NIN

WIWAC, we went to Canada like some people go to their neighboring state. A drivers license was all you needed, and telling the nice border person your citizenship was "U.S."

Certainly things were a little more loosey-goosey back then, but we frequently did joint events with the RCAC. They came to our conferences and encampments, we went to their drill comps and Remembrance Day events.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

I have a client with a daughter who goes to school in upstate NY and driving back from IL
she wanted to take "the scenic route", which apparently takes you into Canada.

It wasn't until they were already in line to leave they realized they didn't have their passports,
etc.  Suffice to say they didn't just wave through on the way back.

Of course it didn't' help that daughter, who is a little "much", yelling from the back seat
"Why are they hassling us, we're citizens!"



NIN

Back in the 1990s, a bunch of us (not all CAP) were going to Windsor from Detroit.  My car goes thru customs and we go to our destination, and my buddies in the car behind aren't there. An hour later, they finally show up. Seems when the customs officer said "citizenship?" one of the guys in the back seat shouted "We're Libyans!"

The drive across Ontario from Niagara to Windsor or Sarnia is nice. When I went to the Michigan Wing conference in April, that route was my plan. Until my idiot buddy who decided to travel with me at the last minute said "my passport is expired." I had to travel thru the vast wasteland of Ohio.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Paul Creed III

Quote from: NIN on June 06, 2019, 10:18:19 am
I had to travel thru the vast wasteland of Ohio.


Hey now...
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
National Headquarters Cyber Curriculum Specialist
National Headquarters Photography Working Group

PHall

Quote from: NIN on June 06, 2019, 10:18:19 am
Back in the 1990s, a bunch of us (not all CAP) were going to Windsor from Detroit.  My car goes thru customs and we go to our destination, and my buddies in the car behind aren't there. An hour later, they finally show up. Seems when the customs officer said "citizenship?" one of the guys in the back seat shouted "We're Libyans!"

The drive across Ontario from Niagara to Windsor or Sarnia is nice. When I went to the Michigan Wing conference in April, that route was my plan. Until my idiot buddy who decided to travel with me at the last minute said "my passport is expired." I had to travel thru the vast wasteland of Ohio.


I would have left your buddy...    Renewing an unexpired passport is pretty painless.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: NIN on June 06, 2019, 10:18:19 am


The drive across Ontario from Niagara to Windsor or Sarnia is nice. When I went to the Michigan Wing conference in April, that route was my plan.


I got stuck trying to cross the Satin bridge back to the US on a three-day weekend. I heard estimates of 2 or 3 hours. I made a pit stop in Canada, and asked a restaurant hostess how locals manage it. That's when I learned about the Sombra- Marine City ferry.

Drive about 30 minutes south of Sarnia and there it was. They had two boats - one held about 9 cars, the other held 12. Fare was 6 bucks the first time I used it, eventually rising to $7. That could be US or Canadian, either direction, so I always paid in $CDN.

Took about 15 minutes to cross the St. Clair River (aka the border). After driving off, about 30 seconds worth of conversation with one of the two US Customs guys assigned there. Easy peasy.

I just looked it up. Their facility was damaged in 2018 and they are closed until they can raise $4 million. Too bad - I was planning on using it soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Slim

June 07, 2019, 06:03:44 am #22 Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 06:07:10 am by Slim
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 06, 2019, 11:36:48 pm
Quote from: NIN on June 06, 2019, 10:18:19 am


The drive across Ontario from Niagara to Windsor or Sarnia is nice. When I went to the Michigan Wing conference in April, that route was my plan.


I got stuck trying to cross the Satin bridge back to the US on a three-day weekend. I heard estimates of 2 or 3 hours. I made a pit stop in Canada, and asked a restaurant hostess how locals manage it. That's when I learned about the Sombra- Marine City ferry.

Drive about 30 minutes south of Sarnia and there it was. They had two boats - one held about 9 cars, the other held 12. Fare was 6 bucks the first time I used it, eventually rising to $7. That could be US or Canadian, either direction, so I always paid in $CDN.

Took about 15 minutes to cross the St. Clair River (aka the border). After driving off, about 30 seconds worth of conversation with one of the two US Customs guys assigned there. Easy peasy.

I just looked it up. Their facility was damaged in 2018 and they are closed until they can raise $4 million. Too bad - I was planning on using it soon.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Go another 20-30 minutes south of Sombra on Ontario Hwy 33, there's another ferry that runs from Walpole Island, On to Algonac, MI.  Just use a little caution, Walpole Island is a First Nation reservation, and it can kinda be the wild west sometimes.

www.walpoleislandferry.ca



Slim

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: NIN on June 06, 2019, 10:18:19 am
I had to travel thru the vast wasteland of Ohio.


Love you, too, Darin

NIN

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on June 07, 2019, 03:01:08 pm
Love you, too, Darin


My history with Ohio is.... chequered. :)

This is an example. :)

And we should probably get on topic, as travel thru Ohio hardly represents "International Travel."

However, I will leave this:

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Paul Creed III

Quote from: NIN on June 07, 2019, 06:21:58 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on June 07, 2019, 03:01:08 pm
Love you, too, Darin


My history with Ohio is.... chequered. :)

This is an example. :)

And we should probably get on topic, as travel thru Ohio hardly represents "International Travel."

However, I will leave this:




More like "Ohioans kick butt and want to explore the universe."
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
National Headquarters Cyber Curriculum Specialist
National Headquarters Photography Working Group

kcebnaes

Quote from: Paul Creed III on June 06, 2019, 12:06:40 pm
Quote from: NIN on June 06, 2019, 10:18:19 am
I had to travel thru the vast wasteland of Ohio.


Hey now...


I dunno, have you been to NW Ohio lately? It's all non-stop rain.
Sean Beck, Maj, CAP
Great Lakes Region sUAS Officer
Various Other Things™

NIN

No thanks. I'm good. In typical Ohio fashion, this time my "get out of Ohio" tax was a new tire. :). At least it wasn't a speeding ticket.



Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
Wing Dude
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
Nothing posted on CAPTalk should be considered policy unless otherwise stated
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2020 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Paul Creed III

Quote from: kcebnaes on June 10, 2019, 04:53:44 pm
Quote from: Paul Creed III on June 06, 2019, 12:06:40 pm
Quote from: NIN on June 06, 2019, 10:18:19 am
I had to travel thru the vast wasteland of Ohio.


Hey now...


I dunno, have you been to NW Ohio lately? It's all non-stop rain.


Same thing in NE Ohio.
Lt Col Paul Creed III, CAP
National Headquarters Cyber Curriculum Specialist
National Headquarters Photography Working Group

SarDragon

Well, let's see - we've heard from the Wolverine/Spartan fans and Buckeye fans, and the Q appears to have been adequately answered so we're outta here.
Buh-bye.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret