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Author Topic: CPP and Caet Mentors  (Read 1670 times)
Azessarguy
Newbie

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« on: April 08, 2019, 05:05:01 AM »

Good evening,
   I am a new senior with almost 9 years as a cadet, I toll a break from CAP to allow the necessary time to adjust mind sets. So CCP is very confusing to me, I understand it is to prevent abuse and inappropriate behavior but I feel it affects our ability to develop perpsn realtionshos with the cadets. I might be wrong here but Iíve always been the one that likes to know the person on a very deep level before I can start mentoring cadets.

So I ask...

1) Can you and a cadet me in a public place outside of CAP one on one to mentor or tutor on CAP things

2) Are yoy allowed to call and text cadets About mentoring and CAP materials?

3) What If you form a new friendship with a cadet that is over 18 are you allow to be friends outside of CAP?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2019, 05:26:25 AM »

1) Can you and a cadet me in a public place outside of CAP one on one to mentor or tutor on CAP things
No.

2) Are yo allowed to call and text cadets About mentoring and CAP materials?
No.
3) What If you form a new friendship with a cadet that is over 18 are you allow to be friends outside of CAP?
Not really.

The majority of this is addressed directly in the required CPT training.

Personal relationships of the type you are espousing can be and are considered grooming behaviors
by those with less than honorable intent, and they are generally unnecessary.

You can be a mentor and example to great effect without them, and should save the friendships until after they are adults.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2019, 06:06:23 AM »

Presuming that you went from cadet to SM right at 21 with no break, this is material that you should have received before you turned 18. There have been some changes, but you should have stayed current with it.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2019, 04:37:35 PM »

2 people coaching a cadet is worth more than 1. Among other things, it provides you an opportunity to function as a mentor for a SM in the Cadet Programs track while at the same time you are coaching a cadet.
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Kayll'b
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« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2019, 05:03:08 PM »

I feel it affects our ability to develop perpsn realtionshos with the cadets.
Yes, it does.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2019, 07:18:02 PM »

21-year-olds don't need to be "friends" with teenagers. You're an adult; act like it.

There's a difference between being a friend with someone and being friendly with someone. Seniors may absolutely be friendly with cadets. You can answer questions and give guidance. But we don't go to the mall or movies with cadets.

I'm not grasping what's confusing here:
You don't hang out with cadets whom you did not know prior to both of you being in CAP.


Before we focus on mentoring cadets, let's focus on our technical writing mechanics.
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Slim
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« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2019, 07:55:57 PM »

Quote
So I ask...

1) Can you and a cadet me in a public place outside of CAP one on one to mentor or tutor on CAP things

2) Are yoy allowed to call and text cadets About mentoring and CAP materials?

3) What If you form a new friendship with a cadet that is over 18 are you allow to be friends outside of CAP?

No matter your intent, any of the three would be considered boundary violations per the CPP reg.  In my squadron, that would start with a talking to.  Further violations would lead to a review of the CPP, then to removal of any cadet programs positions, and ultimately, if uncorrected, could potentially lead to removal from the organization.

2 people coaching a cadet is worth more than 1. Among other things, it provides you an opportunity to function as a mentor for a SM in the Cadet Programs track while at the same time you are coaching a cadet.

This



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Slim
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2019, 03:20:12 PM »

If you have to text or email a cadet, include your a Commander and/or the parents on the cc/bcc line. Avoids the question, Why is some 50 year old contacting my 12/13 year old child.
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Michael P. McEleney
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2019, 03:25:40 PM »

If you have to text or email a cadet, include your a Commander and/or the parents on the cc/bcc line. Avoids the question, Why is some 50 year old contacting my 12/13 year old child.

+1 - activity planning can bring with it a lot of cadet discussions, just make an SMS group that includes other seniors and
only use that.

The regs allow for an occasional direct conversation when necessary, and in that case I would log it somewhere, and / or send
other leaders a message to that effect.
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Alaric
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« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2019, 04:25:44 PM »

21-year-olds don't need to be "friends" with teenagers. You're an adult; act like it.


Though in the confines of CAP I get it, the above is a ridiculous statement.  Anyone who has been to college has probably been friends with someone in their teens when they were 21.  Particularly people who are on competitive teams.  I was in Speech and Debate and guess what so were some freshman.  We practiced together and yes (horror) became friends even to this day, where the 2 - 3 year difference in our ages means alot less
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Eclipse
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« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2019, 04:39:16 PM »

^ People "in college" are generally adults (legally), and often peers (academically).

Those same colleges have rules that restrict interactions when peers change into the teacher / counselor / RA, etc. - student relationship.

In CAP, there is literally no other relationship between "adults" (seniors) and "not-adults" (cadets) then the mentor-leader / student paradigm.
It's not a social situation, it's a mission-focused organizaiton.
 
When you see anything else, those are the red flags.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2019, 07:39:24 PM »

So the 19 year old cadet and 19 year old brand new SM can't socialize outside of CAP. Makes perfect sense.
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Strup
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Toad1168
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« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2019, 07:51:33 PM »

So the 19 year old cadet and 19 year old brand new SM can't socialize outside of CAP. Makes perfect sense.

This actually brings to light something I have been thinking about.  In the pure sense, CPPT is clear.  But our delivery and conversations need to be structured differently depending on the age of the senior or adult member.  We need to be very clear on the "bright lines" when we are training the 18 and older cadet and the 18 and older senior.  While societal norms don't see an issue with the interaction, the supervisory relationship does.  We have to be clear that even if it is an 18yo cadet and an 18yo senior, there are specific rules that govern that interaction.
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Toad
Eclipse
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« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2019, 08:00:18 PM »

So the 19 year old cadet and 19 year old brand new SM can't socialize outside of CAP. Makes perfect sense.

Correct - why would they?  There is no prior relationship, and the SM is in a position of authority over the cadet.

And when would they?  Their duties in the unit are different and segregated, and they are not "in the trenches" together.

If the activities are properly run, they will not train "together", go to encampment "together", or any of the other things
that tend to engender a friendship. 

In all cases the SM will be in a supervisory role over that cadet, and separate from an experiential standpoint.

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THRAWN
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« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2019, 08:19:53 PM »

All of this would be true if CAP was a full time job....or a job....

By that logic, many "CAP couples" never would have gotten together. There have been plenty of "supervisor/subordinate" relationships that have been going on for a long time, and the planet didn't stop spinning. CAP is, as has been repeated, not the military. Silly attempts at imposing military rules like "fraternization" just don't work in this environment.

So the 19 year old cadet and 19 year old brand new SM can't socialize outside of CAP. Makes perfect sense.

Correct - why would they?  There is no prior relationship, and the SM is in a position of authority over the cadet.

And when would they?  Their duties in the unit are different and segregated, and they are not "in the trenches" together.

If the activities are properly run, they will not train "together", go to encampment "together", or any of the other things
that tend to engender a friendship. 

In all cases the SM will be in a supervisory role over that cadet, and separate from an experiential standpoint.
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Strup
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2019, 08:21:02 PM »

I think the emphasis here is on the role of seniors and cadets when both are over 18.

The way you talk and train with a 13-year-old cadet as a senior may differ from your engagement with an 18-year-old cadet. You can have a greater "adult" level conversation with them; mentoring happens on a different level, primarily because of maturity. There's more life experience, and a greater comprehension of concepts. You don't need to "dumb it down" as much for the younger age.

An 18-year-old senior member may need to have a more "junior level" conversation than a 40-year-old senior member. This is a "Know your audience thing." But while you may still be mentoring that senior, you're working with them in a much different capacity in most regards than you are when working with cadets.

The Cadet Program at its heart is a youth leadership program. Cadets may still be above 18, but that's only because they stayed in and accepted themselves to remain in leadership trainee status.


The Senior Program is not a youth leadership program. It's not even an adult leadership program (the leadership building comes as part of the Professional Development program); it's a mission/task-oriented organization at that point.


I recently had a cadet who was 17 leave the Cadet Program. He returned after he turned 18 to become a Flight Officer. Totally different relationship at this point. It needs to be. How I talk with him might not have drastically changed, but what we talk about and the types of projects he faces are vastly different. And I'm expecting him to act in a more supervisory and facilitating capacity than as a cadet leader and cadet mentor of other cadets.

Some lessons may still apply regardless of one's membership status, but the program elements are not even close.

It's not about the age (despite that being frustrating at times); it's about the relationship between membership training programs.
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2019, 08:25:25 PM »

Some members just don't get it.

It is a position of power.

CAP is not the only organization outside of the military adhering to the "non-fraternization" model.

It is wrong for a college professor to fraternize with their students. Just like CAP. Because it becomes easier to take advantage, instead of starting a "really consensual" relation. And because of that advantage, what appears "consensual" is not. Many, many times what appears "consensual" is not. Instead it is abuse.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2019, 08:27:59 PM »

I should clarify an opinion here (after typing out that novel of mine above)---

I do not think the relationship boundaries need to be relaxed. I wouldn't favor seniors and cadets over 18 hanging out 1-on-1. I think that's an unprofessional training relationship at that point due to the intents of the two programs.

I do think the Cadet Protection elements need to be relaxed for cadets over 18. I think there are some "adulting moments" where this person doesn't need a babysitter, and can have a 1-on-1 chat, perhaps even a ride share. But CAP says no; so be it. Is a closed-door 1-on-1 between a 19-year-old cadet and a 25-year-old senior really that big of a hazard? Absolutely not. But for the sake of simplicity, it's easier to just say "Nope...not with a cadet, period." And it's because someone screws it up with a person under 18....so here we are with universal "Nope" policies.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2019, 08:34:21 PM »

All of this would be true if CAP was a full time job....or a job....

By that logic, many "CAP couples" never would have gotten together. There have been plenty of "supervisor/subordinate" relationships that have been going on for a long time, and the planet didn't stop spinning.

Honestly, if you have never been involved in a situation where this nonsense didn't' go sideways, count yourself
lucky and just heed the advice, because once it does, you're cooked, and in some cases the situation can
decimate a whole squadron, major activity, or even effect an entire wing for years.

CAP is, as has been repeated, not the military. Silly attempts at imposing military rules like "fraternization" just don't work in this environment.

First, this isn't about military fraternization per se, but last time I checked CAP is a paramilitary organizaiton.
This is about common sense and good order. FWIW, there are issues when older high school students
have romantic relationships while both are in high school.  In some case with serious legal consequences.

First A: The rules say if you want the opportunities, you follow the rules. If that's too much to ask, then the oath and core values have no meaning for you.

Second citing anecdotal times when something that is clearly a bad idea didn't go sideways doesn't make it a "good" idea.
Pro Tip: "Soulmates" aren't a thing, and there isn't one in your squadron.

I think it's fair to ask how much of this is simple "You can't tell me what to do!" Which in and of itself is a lesson
that adolescents need to learn, because yes, CAP can, and so can and will the rest of the world.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2019, 09:52:56 PM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


Ned
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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2019, 09:16:27 PM »

Great conversation.  Substantive and respectful. All too often this particular discussion can go south.

Much of what I usually point to has been said here, but it is worth remembering that CPP is simply a form of ORM.  The CP comes with a variety of risks; sometimes cadets become injured while playing athletics or on an obstacle course.  With our existing safety protocols, we look at each injury and learn from it.  While we will never completely eliminate injuries in a vigorous and challenging cadet program, we can and should take prudent steps to reduce injuries to a minimum.  This leads to rules like discouraging horseplay and pre-inspecting obstacle courses.

Similarly, although it is very, very rare, we have injured cadets during flying operations.  Sometimes severely.  So we have developed special rules about pilot qualification and training for things like orientation flights.

And finally, although it is also very rare, from time to time cadets are abused by senior members or other cadets.  Sometimes severely.  And the part of the CPP we are discussing here was developed to minimize the number of cadets abused while still allowing the vital coaching and mentoring from experienced CP leaders whose voices are being heard here.

We fully and completely understand that the only way to guarantee that no cadets are injured or abused during CAP activities is to stop having CAP activities.  And obviously that's just silly to even think about.  But we can and must carefully consider ORM principles to continue a challenging program for cadets while minimizing the number of negative outcomes.

I'm pretty sure we all agree on that.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Program Manager
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