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GaryVC
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« on: March 13, 2019, 09:22:12 PM »

Several of our members have not been able to buy ABUs at Nellis AFB recently. I am not sure how long this has been going on, but I think it is at least 6 months. Anyone else have a similar problem buying on base? The applicable AFIs say uniforms are supposed to be sold to CAP members. They have been able to buy blues.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2019, 10:09:34 PM »

Most bases are discontinuing the sale of ABUs.

CAP is entitled by AFI to base access, but CC has final say.
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PHall
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« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2019, 10:11:03 PM »

Nobody out here in Southern California has had any problems getting ABU's at March, Edwards or Los Angeles AFBs.
Has anybody actually talked to the clothing sales manager or is this all third hand?
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jeders
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« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2019, 10:11:55 PM »

Several of our members have not been able to buy ABUs at Nellis AFB recently. I am not sure how long this has been going on, but I think it is at least 6 months. Anyone else have a similar problem buying on base?

Considering that ABUs are being phased out and many if not most airman are already in OCPs, I'm not surprised.
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PHall
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« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2019, 10:18:03 PM »

Most bases are discontinuing the sale of ABUs.

CAP is entitled by AFI to base access, but CC has final say.

Actually, no and no. 

Bases are not discontinuing sales of ABU's but they're starting to run out of some sizes and AAFES only has what's left in their warehouses.
The AAFES contractors have or are in the process of converting over to make OCP's.

Yes, by reg CAP is entitled to access to the Exchange to buy uniform items, but getting on base is up to the Base Commander.
So if the Base Commander says no unescorted access to the base then ask nicely what it would take to be able to get to the Exchange.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2019, 10:42:13 PM »

I've always told CAP members near me or who may be coming near that if they need help getting on base to let me know. 

In fact I actually got CAP included into the base plan at Davis-Monthan... 
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Stonewall
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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2019, 01:34:50 AM »

I went to MCSS at Wright-Patt today to buy my son cadet a new ABU cap. They had 2 left, size 7. They’re “not selling OCPs” but they have OCP caps, OCP Gore-Tex, OCP fleece, coyote boots, coyote t-shirts, and all the OCP accouterments, but no OCPs.  They have about 1/4 of the ABU stuff they had a month ago.

Basically, you can’t buy a complete set of ABUs nor can you buy a complete set of OCPs.

But, after 32 years in CAP I finally have my CAP mess dress. I’ll be wearing my military medals for now, but I got my CAP mess dress nonetheless.
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PHall
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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2019, 06:37:31 PM »

Stonewall, it might be different at Wright-Patt but March ARB and Los Angeles AFB can both start selling OCP's to Air Force personnel starting 1 April.
The staggered "sell to Air Force" dates is to supposedly keep shortages from happening, especially on Army posts.
The Exchange there at Wright-Patt should be able to tell you what their sell to AF date is.
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Stonewall
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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2019, 02:08:01 PM »

Was just at the MCSS on base to inquire about ABU hard again. She said “we can only sell what we have on the shelf and that’s it, no new ABU stuff coming.”
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NIN
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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2019, 02:10:26 PM »

Was just at the MCSS on base to inquire about ABU hard again. She said “we can only sell what we have on the shelf and that’s it, no new ABU stuff coming.”

So, MCSS will no longer be a legit source for our uniforms once again?

*sigh*

Cotton non-colorfast offshore outfits for us, its seems.
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shuman14
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« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2019, 03:00:35 PM »

My recommendation is, do whatever it takes to get USAF approval for CAP to transition to OCP as soon as possible.

Continue to allow the wear of BDU and ABU for those who have them, but get ahead of the OCP issue while you can. Blue Tapes, Rank and Badges and black boots worked for ABU, they will work equally for OCP.
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Joseph J. Clune
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Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2019, 03:20:44 PM »

Was just at the MCSS on base to inquire about ABU hard again. She said “we can only sell what we have on the shelf and that’s it, no new ABU stuff coming.”

So, MCSS will no longer be a legit source for our uniforms once again?

*sigh*

Cotton non-colorfast offshore outfits for us, its seems.

Well that was to be expected, really.  Same thing happened with ABUs / NWUs.

MCSS sold out existing stocks and that was that.
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Dwight Dutton
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« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2019, 05:17:13 PM »

Was just at the MCSS on base to inquire about ABU hard again. She said “we can only sell what we have on the shelf and that’s it, no new ABU stuff coming.”

So, MCSS will no longer be a legit source for our uniforms once again?

I would not be surprised to see one final dump of ABU to CAP near the end of the transition process.
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mykef2
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2019, 09:05:47 PM »

Check the off post Military Surplus Stores and flea markets.  A lot of the airmen are offloading their ABUs outside the gates as they change over to OCPs.

CAP should also think about allowing the use of the Green and Coyote boots, as real military, black leather boots are becoming as scarce as hen's teeth now that none of the services are using them.

The newer styles are also a lot better designed for the feet and the field, also.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2019, 09:45:34 PM »

as real military, black leather boots are becoming as scarce as hen's teeth now that none of the services are using them.

Both the Navy and Coast Guard wear black combat-style boots, and the ones for CAP member wear
are hardly "scarce".
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SarDragon
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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2019, 02:44:59 AM »

Black boots are still plentiful. But they are no longer as inexpensive as they might have been in the past.


Uniformity can also be more of an issue, but the RealMilitary™ doesn't seem to care as much these days. I see a significant variation in black boots being worn by AD military folks. They are all black, but made by different manufacturers. They are more receptive to difference in fit and feet today.
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Dave Bowles
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PHall
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« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2019, 05:04:39 AM »

Black boots are still plentiful. But they are no longer as inexpensive as they might have been in the past.


Uniformity can also be more of an issue, but the RealMilitary™ doesn't seem to care as much these days. I see a significant variation in black boots being worn by AD military folks. They are all black, but made by different manufacturers. They are more receptive to difference in fit and feet today.

Same deal with the green and brown boots too.  They all meet the specification, but they're all slightly different.
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Stonewall
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« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2019, 08:36:05 AM »

I have had the toughest time trying to get black boots that are worth a [darn], for me and my son. Even my favorite expensive boots that I wore in Army/Air Force/CAP aren’t available and I’m willing to pay for them. For two decades I wore Wellco brand black jungle boots. Those finally wore out about 5 years ago so I started wearing my OD green jungle boots. But then, we went to ABUs with ONLY black boots. I bought a pair of knockoff black jungles and they were terrible. Couldn’t wear them for a meeting without hating them. Then I bought a surplus pair of standard issue black leather boots, the same kind I was issued in basic training 28 years ago. They suck, too.

Finally, I dropped $130 and bought the last pair of size 12 Oakley Assault Boots from LA Police Gear and I’m happy.  At least for any temps above 20°.

For my son, I got him Surplus huge boots that killed his feet. Then I found a new pair of black military issue boots on eBay for $60. They’ll last a year because we bought them a size too big. Screw the Walmart wrk boots or knockoffs. I need something that’s going to not kill my feet and look decent in uniform.  Easier for me since my feet stopped growing 25 year ago, but for my son, that’s going to be a tough task.
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sprmedic
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« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2019, 10:41:51 AM »

Another "on base" source of used uniforms would be the "Thrift Store" and "Airman's Attic".  You may have to make contact with the managers of those organizations before sending everyone over (usually run by private organizations like the spouses club).

Many people donate (or consign) to those locations.  If they have a way to offload something noone in the military needs, I'm sure they'd be happy to move the products to make room for something else.
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Dwight Dutton
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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2019, 05:05:30 PM »

Another "on base" source of used uniforms would be the "Thrift Store" and "Airman's Attic".  You may have to make contact with the managers of those organizations before sending everyone over (usually run by private organizations like the spouses club).Many people donate (or consign) to those locations.  If they have a way to offload something noone in the military needs, I'm sure they'd be happy to move the products to make room for something else.

In this case sending people to Airmans Attic is a good option.  Nobody in the USAF is going to be interested in buying even cheap ABU's at this point.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #20 on: March 29, 2019, 08:58:27 PM »

Re: Airman's Attic - be careful. There are reports on here of that venue on some bases being closed to CAP because of abuses. Do a search for "Airman's Attic" and look at the various posts, particularly the one from sardak on July 18, 2017, 12:34:32.
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Dave Bowles
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benjamin.petterborg
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« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2019, 10:24:46 PM »

My recommendation is, do whatever it takes to get USAF approval for CAP to transition to OCP as soon as possible.

Continue to allow the wear of BDU and ABU for those who have them, but get ahead of the OCP issue while you can. Blue Tapes, Rank and Badges and black boots worked for ABU, they will work equally for OCP.

Exactly. We are a part of the "total force" and are a USAF auxiliary, for what reason do we need outdated uniforms? As far as BDUs go, discontinue those if/when we get OCPs, we have enough patterns. For boots, I think we should move to sage or coyote boots, which don't look stupid and don't need polishing. AFJROTC has them, why shouldn't we?

Here are some ideas for OCPs, if/when we get them:
-Rank insignia   -   Use the velcro rank thing on the chest for ranks, dark blue background, white insignia.
-Name tapes   -   Same as ABUs.
-Boots  -   Coyote Brown.
-Patches   -   Velcro backing to go on all of the velcro on the sleeves.
-Fleece   -   Sage or Coyote. Give it 2-4 years before we care if they match.
-Backpacks   -   Olive Drab, Coyote Brown, or Black (or maybe just compliant with whatever AFI applies to that)
-Goretex   -   ABU or OCP, same stuff I said about the sage fleece.

That's just my opinion and I am completely open to criticism, if you have any. Lemme know if you want me to draw something up on what it would look like, let me know.
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PHall
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« Reply #22 on: March 30, 2019, 12:34:06 AM »

My recommendation is, do whatever it takes to get USAF approval for CAP to transition to OCP as soon as possible.

Continue to allow the wear of BDU and ABU for those who have them, but get ahead of the OCP issue while you can. Blue Tapes, Rank and Badges and black boots worked for ABU, they will work equally for OCP.

Exactly. We are a part of the "total force" and are a USAF auxiliary, for what reason do we need outdated uniforms? As far as BDUs go, discontinue those if/when we get OCPs, we have enough patterns. For boots, I think we should move to sage or coyote boots, which don't look stupid and don't need polishing. AFJROTC has them, why shouldn't we?

Because AFJROTC uniforms are shipped to the units and are issued to the cadets.
CAP members have to buy their uniforms. Finding sage or coyote boots off base is a pretty tall order.
There's about 20 or so states that do not have an Air Force Base. And most Guard or Reserve Bases don't have a uniform store.
So where would you find those boots in some place like Maine or Oregon?
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SarDragon
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« Reply #23 on: March 30, 2019, 12:37:14 AM »

PM sent. Let's avoid a dog pile.
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Dave Bowles
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shuman14
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2019, 09:47:41 PM »

So where would you find those boots in some place like Maine or Oregon?

As we say in the Military... G.T.S. ... Google That S***.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=5DShXO_DBMzesAWJmIrwAg&q=coyote+brown+boots&oq=coyote+brown&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0l10.2374.7098..10189...0.0..0.304.1202.11j1j0j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..35i39j0i131j0i3.e0Gwela6PjI
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Joseph J. Clune
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PHall
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« Reply #25 on: April 01, 2019, 12:37:51 AM »

So where would you find those boots in some place like Maine or Oregon?

As we say in the Military... G.T.S. ... Google That S***.

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=5DShXO_DBMzesAWJmIrwAg&q=coyote+brown+boots&oq=coyote+brown&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0l10.2374.7098..10189...0.0..0.304.1202.11j1j0j1......0....1..gws-wiz.....0..35i39j0i131j0i3.e0Gwela6PjI

I was in Clothing Sales at March ARB today. The price of the Sage and Coyote Boots ranged from $154 - $204.
Yeah, that will go over well with parents. We'll stick with the Black boots, they're much cheaper.
When you have to buy all of your uniforms, price matters.
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shuman14
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« Reply #26 on: April 01, 2019, 03:03:29 AM »

When you have to buy all of your uniforms, price matters.

As a Commissioned Officer I have to buy all my Uniforms too, so I feel your pain. When I was Enlisted, just before I got Commissioned, I DX'ed all my worn uniforms and got four brand new sets of BDUs and two new sets of black boots and I had nearly two footlockers filled with usable old BDU and four pairs of used boots.

Then we switched to ACUs and I gave all my BDUs to CAP to distribute to Cadets.

Now we're switching to OCPs, at least I can continue to use Tan boots and t-shirts with them and old BDU Brown t-shirts have faded to a "Coyote Brown" and work quite well with OCPs.

For CAP, Black Boots will most likely never go away but it would make sense to get CAP-USAF to approve Black, Coyote Brown and Tan  Boots for CAP wear with OCPs.

Blue/White Name Tapes, Blue/White CAP Tapes, Blue/White/Yellow Rank Patches, Blue/White Badges and Blue T-shirts will clearly mark CAP different from USAF on OCPs.

CAP needs to get on top of this now. Get OCPs approved ASAP and ditch BDUs and ABUs as fast as you can. Pretty sure you can get Blue "OCP Style" tops and Bottoms so the Corporate Blue BDU could be updated too.

And with Velcro, if you move from one Wing to another, so much easier to switch the Wing Patch on or off.
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Joseph J. Clune
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PHall
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« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2019, 05:17:28 AM »

You do know that at most bases an Airman on Active Duty can't buy OCP's right now.
They were supposed to start selling them at March ARB on 1 April. The date is now TBD. Even AAFES has no idea.
There's not enough in the system to outfit everyone in the Army and the Air Force right now.
The contractors who were making ABU's are in the process of converting over to make OCP's.
It may be late this year before the supply situation is resolved.
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shuman14
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« Reply #28 on: April 01, 2019, 09:37:29 PM »

You do know that at most bases an Airman on Active Duty can't buy OCP's right now.
They were supposed to start selling them at March ARB on 1 April. The date is now TBD. Even AAFES has no idea.
There's not enough in the system to outfit everyone in the Army and the Air Force right now.
The contractors who were making ABU's are in the process of converting over to make OCP's.
It may be late this year before the supply situation is resolved.

So CAP has some wiggle room to coordinate with CAP-USAF and come up with a plan for CAP's transition to OCP during this supply lag.

Have the plan in place with a TBD dates to authorize wear of OCPs and wear-out date for ABUs.
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Joseph J. Clune
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INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: April 01, 2019, 11:06:22 PM »

So CAP has some wiggle room to coordinate with CAP-USAF and come up with a plan for CAP's transition to OCP during this supply lag.

Have the plan in place with a TBD dates to authorize wear of OCPs and wear-out date for ABUs.

What "plan" do they need?  CAP goes to VG and asks them to start selling pink-hued / ultra-vivid OCPs from
whatever PAC-RIM supplier they are getting the pink-hued / ultra vivid CAP-ABU from and moves on.

AAFES and MCSS, while a portended possible source is not actually in CAP's supply chain for uniforms
(and has really never been much of a player for the majority of members anyway).

CAP could do it tomorrow and it would have zero effect on the USAF, the Army, or anyone else.

There's no shortage of OCPs in the retail space, any more then there's a shortage of BDU, ABU, or CFU.
The "shortage" is simply a situation where a very small number of members who used to be able to
have easier access to some pieces because they were / are in the service and could shop on base or AAFES
will have to get things like the rest of the membership.

Not an option for the vast majority of members, which as PHALL points out have no proximity to an MCSS
and who lost mail order access to AAFES years ago.

As long as Walmart can sell serviceable boots for $30 and the internet exists, CAP doesn't need to be making
more changes to the multiform, unless it's to eliminate the affectation of camo and reduce the number of options
to things members can actually easily procure.
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Stonewall
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« Reply #30 on: April 02, 2019, 12:38:38 AM »

You do know that at most bases an Airman on Active Duty can't buy OCP's right now.
They were supposed to start selling them at March ARB on 1 April. The date is now TBD. Even AAFES has no idea.
There's not enough in the system to outfit everyone in the Army and the Air Force right now.
The contractors who were making ABU's are in the process of converting over to make OCP's.
It may be late this year before the supply situation is resolved.

I was at Ft. Belvoir, VA three days ago and there's a big sign outside the MCSS that says, and I'm paraphrasing here, "OCPs will not be sold to the Air Force."

Many Airmen are ordering OCPs through places like US Patriot Tactical or Kel-Lac and those are made by Proper and TruSpec, which, I believe are authorized, but have some subtle differences.
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Fubar
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« Reply #31 on: April 02, 2019, 06:38:57 PM »

Many Airmen are ordering OCPs through places like US Patriot Tactical or Kel-Lac and those are made by Proper and TruSpec, which, I believe are authorized, but have some subtle differences.

Interestingly, those sites differentiate between army and air force OCP uniforms. Are they different? I thought one of the selling points in moving to the army's uniform was keeping it simple and using just one uniform for both branches.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #32 on: April 02, 2019, 06:54:31 PM »

There are (or were) several variants approved for wear depending on when they were issued.
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NIN
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« Reply #33 on: April 02, 2019, 07:52:24 PM »

There are (or were) several variants approved for wear depending on when they were issued.

Yeah, there were the OEF Multicams, and then OCP Multicams, or some such crazy terminology differences.
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NovemberWhiskey
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« Reply #34 on: April 02, 2019, 08:03:14 PM »

This is easy.

The uniform is the ACU; which either stands for Army Combat Uniform or Airman Combat Uniform, depending on context. As the Army Combat Uniform, it has been issued in the Universal Camouflage Pattern (UCP), the Operation Enduring Freedom Camouflage Pattern (which is actually MultiCam, but also known as OEF) and the Operational Camouflage Pattern (which is not MultiCam but Scorpion W2, and usually known as OCP). As the Airman Combat Uniform, it has only ever been issued in OCP.

Actually maybe it isn't so easy :)
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NIN
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« Reply #35 on: April 02, 2019, 09:12:35 PM »

Actually maybe it isn't so easy :)

I have a scorecard and I can't even....
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shuman14
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« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2019, 08:48:57 PM »

OCP is now the issued pattern.

The other Patterns are no longer being issued, but, as far as the Army is concerned, still authorized for wear. A "wear-out" date has not been announced.

Mix-n-match of patterns is not authorized.

You can wear the ACU tan t-shirts, belts and boots with OCPs but you can not wear coyote t-shirts, belts and boots with the ACUs. I think the "wear-out" date for the ACUs themselves is 01OCT2019 but there is talk of that being delayed. Not all USAR and NG Enlisted personnel have received their four sets of OCPs yet and the Army is not sure if it can meet the 01OCT2019 date to equip them all.

For CAP purposes, ACU in OCP Pattern should be the only thing discussed for getting CAP-USAF authorization for wear. Again, after the USAF roll out is complete.
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Joseph J. Clune
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Eclipse
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« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2019, 09:26:22 PM »

For CAP purposes, ACU in OCP Pattern should be the only thing discussed for getting CAP-USAF authorization for wear. Again, after the USAF roll out is complete.

Since when does CAP-USAF authorize CAP uniforms?
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Dwight Dutton
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« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2019, 11:28:40 PM »

For CAP purposes, ACU in OCP Pattern should be the only thing discussed for getting CAP-USAF authorization for wear. Again, after the USAF roll out is complete.
Since when does CAP-USAF authorize CAP uniforms?

I think if we want OCP's that's who we ask.  If not the actual approving authority they are at least who national would ask first.  But we have to debate it on captalk for a couple of years before they even consider doing anything.

I now have four sets of large regular ABU's I'm not even going to sew the insignia on.

Now the OCP drama starts where the ABU ended.  I want my $200 for passing GO.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2019, 11:47:00 PM »

I now have four sets of large regular ABU's I'm not even going to sew the insignia on.

Those ABUs would be fully worn in, if not out before OCPs are even considered let alone approved,
especially with the typical CAP-extended sundown.

There's no reason you can't use them.

OCPs are likely a 2025-2030 conversation at best.
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Gunsotsu
Forum Regular

Posts: 121

« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2019, 11:50:06 PM »

OCPs are likely a 2025-2030 conversation at best.

And by then the ever ADHD Ma Blue will have moved on to the next shiny new thing and CAP will once again be asking these same questions.

Lather.
Rinse.
Repeat.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,753

« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2019, 11:58:28 PM »

Weird, right?
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