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OldGuy
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Unit: TBKS

« on: February 26, 2019, 01:34:53 AM »

Here in WAWG we are hearing of a very public, horrific case of abuse.

The SM has been suspended, now what?

Who investigates? Who determines where the system broke down? When do we, as members, get briefed on this? What are the consequences to those who failed in their duties of supervision?

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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2019, 01:46:10 AM »

Let me ask you this---

Does your unit actually enforce Cadet Protection, or is it the general idea that it is enforced? Do you talk about it regularly, or only when a new member comes on board? Do your activity plans include a checklist item to make sure CPP is maintained and implemented into the master plan, or is it general knowledge as to what the requirements are?

It's very easy for abuse to slip through. Could there have been a rule that could have changed this situation? Perhaps. But would it have been feasible. Maybe it's more plausible, though, that situational awareness and conscious oversight of the staff is what contributed to the CPP failure. You can only control so much from the inside, though.

Ironically, this story broke as I was giving two new senior members their introductory CPP training along with my direct staff as a refresher, and a cadet turning 18 soon. I saw the headline when I got home that night. It goes to show that we present this stuff for a reason.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2019, 01:46:22 AM »

Here in WAWG we are hearing of a very public, horrific case of abuse.

The SM has been suspended, now what?

Now nothing, as far those not involved are concerned.

Who investigates?
CAP IGs, Legal officers, and the police if it involves a crime.

Who determines where the system broke down?
Anyone with common sense who is aware of the details, +the IG core and Legal Officers
who will recommend or require changes in policy or behavior, >if< the situation was within
CAP's control in some way.

When do we, as members, get briefed on this?
You don't, any more then you would know the details of something that happened down your street.

What are the consequences to those who failed in their duties of supervision?
Obviously it depends on the situation, but removal and prohibition from positions of authority, demotion, remedial training,
and membership termination are all possibilities.
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foo
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Posts: 173

« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2019, 01:47:54 AM »

I believe these questions are answered in the Cadet Protection Policy itself.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R060002_Cadet_Protection_1_MAR_18_C9DF90813A654.pdf

4.5. Internal Investigations. The complaint and investigation process for allegedly abusive behavior is explained in CAPR 20-2. After reporting a reasonable suspicion of abuse, members are prohibited from undertaking any further action on the matter without specific authorization from CAP/GC.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2019, 02:38:20 AM »

1 - the police have arrested the perp,
2 - it is public and the news has identified this case as a SM abusing a cadet over many years,
3 - it appears to have been a systemic breakdown,
4 - it has shaken my confidence in how the system is supposed to work,
5 - with regards to our local unit, we are rigorous in our training and in practice, hence my shock.

When the investigation is done, will there be consequences, will they be as public as the arrest and news reports and will there be changes that are meaningful? Are we truly serious about CPP? (As an organization - again, in our local unit, we are as serious as a heart attack. We treat the issue as seriously as strategic units treat nuclear weapons.)
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2019, 02:57:43 AM »

If this is a systemic failure, what system are we referring to? Specifically, which part of the system do you believe failed?
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OldGuy
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« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2019, 03:16:23 AM »

If this is a systemic failure, what system are we referring to? Specifically, which part of the system do you believe failed?
The command oversight. The perp was allegedly a squadron cc at the time the abuse started, got moved into a staff job at group. The nature of the reported abuse and subsequent moves are telling, if the press reporting is accurate. The length of time the abuse went on, the number of folks who are reported to have known all lead me to the rational belief that the system failed. Badly.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2019, 03:17:14 AM »

Here in WAWG we are hearing of a very public, horrific case of abuse.

The SM has been suspended, now what?

Now nothing, as far those not involved are concerned.

Who investigates?
CAP IGs, Legal officers, and the police if it involves a crime.

Who determines where the system broke down?
Anyone with common sense who is aware of the details, +the IG core and Legal Officers
who will recommend or require changes in policy or behavior, >if< the situation was within
CAP's control in some way.

When do we, as members, get briefed on this?
You don't, any more then you would know the details of something that happened down your street.

What are the consequences to those who failed in their duties of supervision?
Obviously it depends on the situation, but removal and prohibition from positions of authority, demotion, remedial training,
and membership termination are all possibilities.

The police are involved, the press is fully involved and we are kept in the dark?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2019, 04:54:03 AM »

The police are involved, the press is fully involved and we are kept in the dark?

Yes.
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Gunsotsu
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Posts: 124

« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2019, 04:56:53 AM »

...in our local unit, we are as serious as a heart attack. We treat the issue as seriously as strategic units treat nuclear weapons.

So did his former squadron and wing. The problem with monsters though is you don't know who they are until they're caught.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2019, 05:02:04 AM »

...in our local unit, we are as serious as a heart attack. We treat the issue as seriously as strategic units treat nuclear weapons.

So did his former squadron and wing.
I doubt that. Very much.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2019, 05:02:31 AM »

The police are involved, the press is fully involved and we are kept in the dark?

Yes.
How is that helpful?
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Mitchell 1969
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Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2019, 10:56:38 AM »

...in our local unit, we are as serious as a heart attack. We treat the issue as seriously as strategic units treat nuclear weapons.

So did his former squadron and wing.
I doubt that. Very much.

What is the basis for your doubt?


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Mitchell 1969
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Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2019, 11:01:32 AM »

The police are involved, the press is fully involved and we are kept in the dark?

Yes.
How is that helpful?

It appears that at least two investigations are underway - criminal and internal/administrative. Releasing details from either one before completion could compromise one or both. It’s not as if CAP has suspended CPP pending the outcome of the investigations. If your “nuclear weapons” level of adherence to CPP is as you described, then continue with it.


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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
NIN
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Posts: 5,214
Unit: of issue

« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2019, 12:05:08 PM »

1 - the police have arrested the perp,
2 - it is public and the news has identified this case as a SM abusing a cadet over many years,

So these items are "facts": they guy has been arrested and CAP has been mentioned.

Quote
3 - it appears to have been a systemic breakdown,

This is an opinion. I don't precisely think we know if there has been or not. You're closer to the situation, so perhaps you're in possession of more "scuttlebutt," but there is an investigation ongoing (I assume) and you should probably not be putting out scuttlebutt on the Internet.

Quote
4 - it has shaken my confidence in how the system is supposed to work,

The system is only as good as the people operating it. Moreso, if someone is doing "BadThings™" they are likely doing whatever they can to hide those things so they won't come to the attention of others.

Now, if the investigation reveals that something was an "open secret" and people knew something shady was going on? Well, thats a different story.  But we don't know that yet.


Quote
5 - with regards to our local unit, we are rigorous in our training and in practice, hence my shock.

As you should be.

Look, if you're doing it right, this kind of thing shouldn't happen.

We have laws against murdering people, and we employ a vast apparatus to enforce those laws. And guess what? People still wind up murdering others.

Occasionally, someone is going to find a way to circumvent the rules, until they get caught.  You do what you can within the bounds of our program and hopefully you prevent all of it from happening.

Quote
When the investigation is done, will there be consequences, will they be as public as the arrest and news reports and will there be changes that are meaningful? Are we truly serious about CPP? (As an organization - again, in our local unit, we are as serious as a heart attack. We treat the issue as seriously as strategic units treat nuclear weapons.)

If you mean "Will my wing conduct a perp walk with anybody they've found was knowledgeable and did nothing to stop it?" No.

Some regs might change (after all, many of our regs are "written in blood" based on things like accidents and incidents) and some people might "disappear" from the program. And your wing, being closer to the situation than mine, will likely be spring-loaded into the "most restrictive interpretation of the policies ever" mode for a long time.

But there won't be a thing on the 6pm evening news.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2019, 01:05:35 PM »

Let's also consider something here:

CAP's internal processes are administrative.
The actual investigation underway are legal in nature.

There is a criminal investigation ongoing. The basic details of the story made the media. It's known. It's out there.

CAP has to cooperate with the investigation, to include various CAP members being interviewed as part of it.

CAP is not privileged to have access to the investigation content.

The suspect, despite how we all feel about the situation---and the administrative action CAP has taken at this time---is still not convicted in court. CAP has to be extremely delicate with how this gets handled and communicated out to its members, and avoid making any non-factual or incorrect statements that could result in a civil suit against the organization.


What need do you have to know right now? You don't. There is nothing occurring that is your direct, immediate concern. This is indicative as a one-off, isolated incident between two members whose relationship became inappropriate outside the scope of the weekly CAP meeting.

For the sake of the organization, I'd like to not see this blow up in the media on a national level. The less information CAP releases for the sake of providing general knowledge, the better. Read the news if you want details.
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Adam B
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2019, 01:25:52 PM »

Just wanted to my quick 2 cents.

It's fairly common (in the US at least) for crimes committed while in an organization to be investigated from two sides.
The police will investigate the crimes (violation of law), while the organization itself will investigate the policy violations (and possibly assist the police with their investigation).
The police might choose to release details during the investigation, but once the case is through court, most of the proceedings will be made public record.
On the other hand, the organization's investigation is usually confidential and kept private from both the media and the other members of the organization, unless some part of it is subpoenaed for the court.

I just wanted to mention this to point out that CAP isn't being shady by not sharing details on their investigation. It's typical, and it's done to protect the people and organization involved.
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Adam B
Capt, CAP
Gunsotsu
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Posts: 124

« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2019, 03:21:19 PM »

Here's the non-scuttlebutt facts of someone on the ground:

1. The perp has already been removed from membership.
2. The perp's former unit and wing have stellar adherence to CPP.
3. OldGuy's opinions on this matter have no basis in fact.

Shut this thread down, I think we're done here.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2019, 04:29:28 PM »

Shut this thread down, I think we're done here.

Second the motion.
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PHall
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Posts: 6,538

« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2019, 04:57:40 PM »

Yes, please kill this thread. Old Guy, please review the CPP regs. This is why we now have a requirement to take a CPP refresher course every four years, to keep everybody current on the current reg.
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jeders
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« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2019, 05:15:13 PM »

Motion to close has been seconded, motion carries.

Right now, any discussion on this particular case will only be speculatory and, as previously pointed out, doesn't help anyone. If and when new actual facts come out, if there is a reasonable request to do so, we will unlock the thread; until then, just make sure that you're doing everything you can to provide the best program for those you can affect.
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: What happens when CPP fails?
 


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