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Author Topic: MS initial training - on local pilotsí dime?  (Read 2249 times)
hfriday
Member

Posts: 50
Unit: NER-VT-034

« on: February 02, 2019, 09:27:17 PM »

I have been in CAP for not quite a year and have been doing ground work toward MS. As an Army UH-60 crew chief, a lot of the job to this point has been immediately familiar.

We have had trouble getting acces to an airplane at my unit, but we recently were assigned a 182. Looks like I will finally be able to do some real training and get a sense of what is different in fixed-wing aircraft.

Oops - flag on the play: as an MS trainee, I cannot train on the Air Forceís funding, but am restricted, I am now told, to C flight codes - paid out of pocket by the pilot.

Is this a factual/clerical error at the wing level, or is it just the dumbest policy a shrinking organization could possibly take? We pay out of pocket for the dues and uniforms required to serve. Must we also fund our own basic aviation training (or, as I have been fortunate, rely on the generosity of our pilots)? Thatís not a particularly sustainable model.

Thanks for any clarification. As I am seeing things, it makes very little sense.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2019, 10:56:35 PM »

Oops - flag on the play: as an MS trainee, I cannot train on the Air Forceís funding, but am restricted, I am now told, to C flight codes - paid out of pocket by the pilot.

You were told wrong.

MS Trainees qualify to fly in AFAMs the same as fully qualified members.

You can't be signed into >any< mission, funded or not, until you are in trainee status,
but once you are you can fly in training or actual missions, including earning find credit
and related decorations (within the rules of supervision and trainee ratios).

In fact the majority of members do their FAM / PREP on the ground, and then fly
AFAMs of one sort or another for their tasks and sorties that require flying.

This includes, by design, wings running monthly funded A12 proficiency missions.
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etodd
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Posts: 1,528

« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2019, 11:42:24 PM »

You didn't mention what type of pilot you are, PPL ASEL?

When I joined three years ago as a PPL, I did my first Form 5 through my initial Form 91 for Mission pilot all as C-12s. (Subsequent Form 91s are A-12s)

Now, in the interim, when I started on Mission Scanner, I worked through the SQTR sheet with a local SET and then for the two flights at the bottom, I waited until the next SAREX, and did them there so I didn't have to pay. Same with MO, and then AP. Luckily we had SAREXs often enough that I didn't have to wait long.

Another option as Eclipse mentions, is the funded proficiency flights for existing MPs. Make nice with the pilots in your Squadron and sit back seat and practice MS while they are practicing their thing. Of course ideally the MO needs to be a SET, so he can sign you off after the flight.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO

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Eclipse
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2019, 11:55:46 PM »

You didn't mention what type of pilot you are, PPL ASEL?

He's training for Scanner.
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etodd
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« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2019, 12:20:21 AM »

You didn't mention what type of pilot you are, PPL ASEL?

He's training for Scanner.

Right. I covered that in paragraphs three and four. But if he is a pilot, you have to do MS before starting on MP, hence my adding the other in.  :)
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO

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OldGuy
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« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2019, 12:51:14 AM »

My MS trainee flights were done on live missions. AF funded missions.
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CAP9907
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« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2019, 12:55:08 AM »

A1 missions or other types?
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OldGuy
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« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2019, 01:49:29 AM »

A1 missions or other types?
A1
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hfriday
Member

Posts: 50
Unit: NER-VT-034

« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2019, 01:13:12 PM »

Sorry I posted and then vanished - a lot going on with the family at the moment.

Thanks for the information; I am not a pilot, and have no designs on becoming one, which seems an expensive process. Iím happy to serve in other capacities.

So, Iíll pass this info along to our our MPs and, unless they are hellbent on paying, weíll just make a WMIRS mission with the A code. I can then cite the flight ops and training regulations if higher command wishes to make things difficult. Much obliged as always.
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coudano
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« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2019, 01:51:48 PM »

I would not recommend going and putting in an A-mission request into WMIRS without guidance or authorization from up your chain of command (wing level operations shop)

You still need a funding source from wing if you want wing to pay for it.
For example, my wing distributes annual training funds to the group level, and then a quarterly group sarex is held.
We just flew four MS(T)'s (first time flyers in CAP) on that funded group sarex, and qualified 3 of them, funded by CAP.

If your wing/group doesn't have any funds for training,
or doesn't have any funds to allocate to your training,
then there won't be any funds to do this sort of thing.

Maybe your wing holds all of its funds up top and does 2 or 3 big wing-wide exercises a year...  In this case you would have to go to one of those big wing-wide exercises in order to get funded training.  If this is the case, then you would have to find another funding source to do training on (maybe you put a MS Trainee on board a maintenance ferry or cadet orientation ferry flight --as long as someone on the flight is a qualified SET)...  or alternatively you fund it yourself. 

The FAA only prevents the pilot in command from paying less than the pro-rata share, so one MS could split the cost of the flight halfsies with the pilot.  Or if three of you went you could go out of pocket for 1/3 each.

Hope this is helpful.
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hfriday
Member

Posts: 50
Unit: NER-VT-034

« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2019, 04:10:56 PM »

I think so...

In other words, like all things CAP, procedures vary widely depending on where you are assigned.

Having looked through CAPR 60-3 this morning, I didn't really see much in Chapter 3 - Air Force-Assigned Training and Evaluation Missions - that mandated anything in particular of the keepers of the purse-strings. This was the best I could find:

3-5. Scheduling and Requesting Air Force-assigned Training or Evaluation Missions.
  a. General. Subject to availability of funds and other necessary resources, each wing and region is authorized the following evaluation and training missions during the federal fiscal year:
   (1) Evaluations [...]
   (2) Optional (wing/region commanders will prioritize available training funds to meet the wing/regionís most critical training requirements):
     (a) Emergency Services and other Operations training missions; this training is expected to prepare members to meet AFAM requirements and earn emergency services specialty qualifications; any training for tasks required to become qualified may be included in this category. For example, communications user training for personnel that will operate radio equipment on missions would be acceptable as well as water survival training for aircrew members in coastal states, or first aid training for ground teams. A full mission staff to provide
selective task training is generally not required but certain staffing or other safety requirements may be required by the mission approval authorities.

Not the kind of specific directive regarding who pays for qualification flights.

So, I stand by my statement that this is a foolish policy in light of retention problems, but it seems like the policy we have.

Thanks once again, folks!...
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Eclipse
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« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2019, 04:17:53 PM »

In other words, like all things CAP, procedures vary widely depending on where you are assigned.

In this case, not really.

In most wings the average pilot or member can't just go in and create AFAMs (or any other mission) on their whim.

For starters, every mission has to have an IC assigned, and every sortie is part of a mission number of one kind or another.

In your case, most likely the pilot and / or crew would be assigned to a pre-existing sortie which is based
within their training framework and budget.  May wings now have quick-spin-up A12 sortie plans (mine can
turn around a sortie in about an hour, or even less).

The thing to do is to reach out to your ops folks at Group or Wing and get the whole story and process
before making any assumptions or statements about policies, etc.

An organization like CAP can't just allow their limited budget to be spent without some plan or forethought.
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hfriday
Member

Posts: 50
Unit: NER-VT-034

« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2019, 04:28:19 PM »

Of course. We have had such trouble getting an airplane to our neck of the woods, we are also particularly anxious to get as much training out of any given flight as we possibly can, training multiple crew members simultaneously. I don't suppose it had occurred to me that CAP crews were considered a fraud-waste-and-abuse threat, though from the big picture, it must always be a concern.

The systemic problem is that in my squadron, nobody seems to know most of this stuff, so I find myself turning to you guys a lot for guidance. As a veteran, I have a strong Pavlovian response to the idea of jumping the chain of command to get guidance from wing. Maybe that's something I need to get over (while of course remaining respectful).

Thanks for continuing to set me on the right path.
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husker
Forum Regular

Posts: 172
Unit: NHQ-007

« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2019, 04:42:25 PM »

An organization like CAP can't just allow their limited budget to be spent without some plan or forethought.

 ^ This
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Michael Long, Lt Col CAP
Deputy Director, National Emergency Services Academy
nesa.cap.gov
mlong (at) nesa.cap.gov
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,528

« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2019, 06:10:57 PM »


In most wings the average pilot or member can't just go in and create AFAMs (or any other mission) on their whim.


Oh for sure, I cannot create a Mission. But our Wing has an existing Mission called "Misc", that any CAP pilot can go into and enter a C-12  "Sortie" into it without asking prior. Request a FRO, and when the FRO approves, you're all set to fly. "Clear sky and smooth air tonight. Think I'll go get night current." Yes, it can be done that quick.

We also have another Mission for A-12s, like my Form 91 renewal coming up next week. Simple email to get approval for that. Then jump into WMIRS, enter the sortie, talk to FRO, and then go fly.

Some folks try to overcomplicate it. We try to keep it simple.



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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO

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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,762

« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2019, 06:30:08 PM »

As a veteran, I have a strong Pavlovian response to the idea of jumping the chain of command to get guidance from wing. Maybe that's something I need to get over (while of course remaining respectful).

It is. Just repeat "there is no spoon".

Yes, there are practical realities to span of control and management of an organization as large and geographically
diverse as CAP.  You can't have every member emailing the Wing CC asking hot to wear their ribbons.

But I have no time for Group or Wing Staffers starts shouting about "chain of command" for issues which are important and
clearly not being communicated properly downstream. If no one in your unit knows, there is someone in your unit
responsible for asking up, if no one else it's the CC, and he's free and clear to designate you to be the asker.
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BJD
Recruit

Posts: 8
Unit: NER-NH-056

« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2019, 08:49:16 PM »

There are a number of helpful replies here that are correct that you have available options to complete your MS qualification on funded sorties.  There have also been a number of statements that are not quite right.  Most aircrew ES training and qualification should and does take place on A5 missions that are approved in advance annually through CAP USAF and NHQ.  They are generally monthly missions and opened, funded and closed for the relevant time frames.  Your wing has a number of those and your Squadron ES Officer may be a good first stop to see the steps your wing has for you to be involved in your A5 Missions.

A few posts mention training on an A12 Proficiency sortie.  While it is possible, to receive MS training on an A12, your Pilot in Command can NOT be your trainer.  You must have another MS SET on board. All A12 sorties must follow one of the USAF approved Pilot Proficiency Profiles.  This may or may not allow the opportunity for the training you need. 

F91 evaluations are not conducted on A12 sorties.  While they may be done on A5s, they are normally done on A7s.  A statement was made that the FAA prevents the pilot from paying less than the pro-rata share of the cost of the flight.  FAA Exemption 11037A granted to CAP allows private pilots to fly "A" and "B" mission sorties without the need to pay their pro-rata share.  This exemption does NOT apply to "C" missions.  Commercial pilots do not need this exemption.  Pilots do not create or enter missions in WMIRS.  They enter sorties on previously approved and open missions.

Our wing has a close working relationship with your wing.  I know your wing has several opportunities for you to receive all of your aircrew training and qualifications on funded missions.  If timing or temporary aircraft allocations are preventing you from flying, please ask your squadron to allow you to participate with adjoining wings.  Trainees from other wings are always welcome to join us at our A5 exercises every month.

Please don't get discouraged.  As a new member it is always hard to navigate through the CAP system.  We are all volunteers and not everyone has the access to the right information all the time.  If something doesn't sound right to you, keep asking.  There is no reason you or any other volunteer would need to pay for you to become qualified as a MS.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2019, 08:51:45 PM »

A few posts mention training on an A12 Proficiency sortie.  While it is possible, to receive MS training on an A12, your Pilot in Command can NOT be your trainer.  You must have another MS SET on board. All A12 sorties must follow one of the USAF approved Pilot Proficiency Profiles.  This may or may not allow the opportunity for the training you need. 

Cite please.
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BJD
Recruit

Posts: 8
Unit: NER-NH-056

« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2019, 09:31:07 PM »

CAP Pamphlet 71-4:

Intent
The primary focus of these profiles is aircrew proficiency. Although some of these profiles
support general proficiency flying, most are designed to prepare crews to fly operational
missions. As appropriate, those flights should include a Mission Observer and Scanner.
Opportune training for other aircrew positions may be accomplished in conjunction with a
proficiency sortie; however, under no circumstances will an aircrew member working on
their own proficiency also serve in an instructor capacity for a trainee on the same sortie.
For example, if flying Profile #1 (Visual Search Mission), a Scanner or Observer trainee
with a dedicated instructor may accompany the flight to accomplish Scanner or Observer
training tasks.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,762

« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2019, 09:35:36 PM »

CAP Pamphlet 71-4:

Intent
The primary focus of these profiles is aircrew proficiency. Although some of these profiles
support general proficiency flying, most are designed to prepare crews to fly operational
missions. As appropriate, those flights should include a Mission Observer and Scanner.
Opportune training for other aircrew positions may be accomplished in conjunction with a
proficiency sortie; however, under no circumstances will an aircrew member working on
their own proficiency also serve in an instructor capacity for a trainee on the same sortie.
For example, if flying Profile #1 (Visual Search Mission), a Scanner or Observer trainee
with a dedicated instructor may accompany the flight to accomplish Scanner or Observer
training tasks.

Where does that say a Mission Pilot / PIC, per se, cannot be the evaluator?

Profiles 1, 2, 3, 8, & 9 are routinely flown with the intention of proficiency or qualifying for
the mission crew, not the pilot.

Not every A12 is a pilot proficiency sortie.  Plenty are flown with a fully qualified pilot
who is also an SET for the benefit of APs, GIIEP, MOs, and in some case even Ground Teams.

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etodd
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Posts: 1,528

« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2019, 09:44:28 PM »



Not every A12 is a pilot proficiency sortie.  Plenty are flown with a fully qualified pilot
who is also an SET for the benefit of APs, GIIEP, MOs, and in some case even Ground Teams.

I hope so. As a MP & SET, I've been doing the above. :)
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO

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etodd
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Posts: 1,528

« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2019, 09:46:21 PM »


F91 evaluations are not conducted on A12 sorties.

Yeah .. but the MISSION number our Wing has us doing this, is setup for A12s only and when entering a sortie doesn't give me a place to change it.

So ... I just do as I'm told, and go fly.  ;)


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BJD
Recruit

Posts: 8
Unit: NER-NH-056

« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2019, 09:47:45 PM »

If your CAP USAF LR allows that, good for you.  We are not able to do so.
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etodd
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« Reply #23 on: February 04, 2019, 09:58:13 PM »

If your CAP USAF LR allows that, good for you.  We are not able to do so.

Its amazing the differences on many topics where Wings can vary widely. And then within Wings, how the Squadrons can vary as well.  Being a strong believer in grass roots, often it works out best that way. LOL
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coudano
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2019, 01:20:45 AM »

our Wing has an existing Mission called "Misc", that any CAP pilot can go into and enter a C-12  "Sortie"

Yep you said it here.   C-12.
That's pilot self-funded (or sub-commercial-pilot minimum pro rata share funded)

Yes you can complete aircrew training like this.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2019, 03:23:22 AM »


F91 evaluations are not conducted on A12 sorties.

Yeah .. but the MISSION number our Wing has us doing this, is setup for A12s only and when entering a sortie doesn't give me a place to change it.

So ... I just do as I'm told, and go fly.  ;)

Doing 91s and 5s on the A12 is a big no-no "doing what I'm told" could wind up being an issue during a CI.

By design the initials are supposed to be member-funded, and re-currency funded separately.
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etodd
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« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2019, 05:05:29 AM »



Doing 91s and 5s on the A12 is a big no-no ...


So after some inquiry, I've been pointed to another Mission Number that will indeed put this in as an A-7. It was not obvious at all.

Thanks Eclipse, for the heads up.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO

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hfriday
Member

Posts: 50
Unit: NER-VT-034

« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2019, 04:15:41 PM »

Thanks, BJD - a lot of this information has gone further over my head as it has progressed, but that's just part of being the new guy. I still have to learn the mission codes with all their nuances and caveats.

One ironic glitch in all this is that I AM my unit's ES officer (and PD officer), but I'm still figuring things out and don't actually know how to access my counterpart at wing for ES. We are extremely small, and so once I hit a dead-end with the regs or WMIRS, I usually come to CAPTalk to see if someone can clarify procedure. Sometimes that's a yes - there's a ton of experience here - sometimes a no.

I have been to a couple of wing SAREXes equipped to fly and for various reasons have been tasked instead to ground teams. I have no heartburn with working on a GTM qualification, of course, but with no SET in my unit for that, I can't make any progress BETWEEN SAREXes on that. With my ground/familiarization stuff complete for MS, I'm eager to do something that feels productive, but not if I have to pay $88/hour to do it...that's just more than I can really swing.

It's slow going, but we'll stay the course with the SAREXes and see how it comes together.
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BJD
Recruit

Posts: 8
Unit: NER-NH-056

« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2019, 05:46:00 PM »

Your squadron CC should be able to get you the contact information for the wing DOS.  Again, you should not have to pay anything for MS training.

Good luck.
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Tim Day
Seasoned Member

Posts: 259
Unit: MER-VA-102

Prince William Composite Squadron
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2019, 08:50:20 PM »

Our Wing has passed a sheet of amplifying instructions that clarifies that the proficiency profiles are considered for the proficiency of the pilot. I believe - but cannot prove - that this interpretation was coordinated with CAP-USAF or at least CAP/DO. That may be because we are typically allocated only 1.5 hours per month per Mission Pilot, with the rationale for the funding being pilot proficency. Bottom line, your wing has control over how that mission is flown. In our wing, A12 sorties are requested by MPs and approved by Wing Ops. I suppose that as an MP I could request an A12 sortie for the proficiency of an MO, then conduct training with an MS trainee but it would be up to Ops to approve that request.

There are also USAF-funded sorties for ES training, which are A5 sorties. As an MP who is a MO&MS evaluator, I can fly a USAF-funded A5 sortie and sign of both MO & MS tasks. Sorties on the ES Training mission are approved by our Wing ES Officer. Or, I could fly a self-funded C12 sortie on the "VA Misc" mission, take along a trainee, and sign off tasks.

If you pull up WMIRS, you could find the "SAR Training" mission - it will list "A5" in the mission symbol column. Click on the mission number and on the mission information page you should be able to find the name of the person who requested the mission. At the bottom of the page, you should see a "Customer Information" section with that person's email address and phone number. The "customer" should be able to vector you to the right person to request a sortie and fill you in on the correct process.
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Tim Day
Lt Col CAP
Prince William Composite Squadron Commander
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,528

« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2019, 11:06:29 PM »

Our Wing has passed a sheet of amplifying instructions  ....


As I've said earlier, looks like every Wing does things differently. All within regs of course, just different procedures. Some simpler and streamlined, others more burdensome.  I always wondered why I would see "former" CAP pilots who complained about so much bureacry and paperwork. I never understood what they were talking about.Since then, I've learned the differences in Squadron personalities, and Wings.  Thats why I encourage newcomers to try and visit several Squadrons if possible before deciding to join. Its a good thing. :)
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sUAS MP - sUAS Instructor - sUAS Check Pilot
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