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deepblue1947
Member

Posts: 61

« on: January 14, 2019, 05:44:34 PM »

CAP Pamphlet 152 is a guide for using social media, not a regulation.  Other than this, is anyone aware of any CAP Regulation that dictates what can or cannot be said on a members personal facebook page in regard to their religious or political beliefs?

Thank you
DB
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etodd
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« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2019, 06:00:22 PM »

CAP Pamphlet 152 is a guide for using social media, not a regulation.  Other than this, is anyone aware of any CAP Regulation that dictates what can or cannot be said on a members personal facebook page in regard to their religious or political beliefs?

Thank you
DB

Good grief.  Please don't get this started.  What people do outside of CAP is none of CAP's business. We're just a bunch of CIVILIAN volunteers.

(Hoping to see this thread locked quick, as I'm afraid of how this could turn out.)
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abdsp51
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« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2019, 06:02:38 PM »

Don't post anything you wouldn't say to your family or that you wouldn't want a potential employer to discover.
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dwb
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« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2019, 06:06:45 PM »

What people do outside of CAP is none of CAP's business.

Obviously this is not 100% true. If you commit felonies outside of CAP, it is absolutely CAP's business.

@OP I don't know what you're fishing for here, but generally CAP is CAP and personal life is personal life. However, those aren't always exclusive boundaries and bad personal actions can affect your CAP membership (which is, after all, a privilege and not a right).
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2019, 06:13:30 PM »

It depends: is the content in respect to one's personal opinion reflecting themselves or one's opinions in direct representation of CAP (e.g., posting on your Facebook status "My CAP squadron commander is a *expletive*" can have consequences in CAP).

If you reference CAP, you're speaking on behalf of CAP. That includes wearing a uniform in your profile photo.

I'm fairly political on Facebook. I'll share CAP posts and photos from time to time. I don't mix the two. I won't share a political post with "so what CAP does is..." in the same post. I keep them separated.

Don't bring something to discredit the organization, because then it's no difference than a teacher discrediting their school. You don't talk about your chain of command; wear the uniform properly if displayed on social media; don't talk about others by name.

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PHall
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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2019, 06:15:23 PM »

CAP Pamphlet 152 is a guide for using social media, not a regulation.  Other than this, is anyone aware of any CAP Regulation that dictates what can or cannot be said on a members personal facebook page in regard to their religious or political beliefs?

Thank you
DB

Good grief.  Please don't get this started.  What people do outside of CAP is none of CAP's business. We're just a bunch of CIVILIAN volunteers.

(Hoping to see this thread locked quick, as I'm afraid of how this could turn out.)

What? You don't think CIVILIANS have to follow rules too?
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deepblue1947
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Posts: 61

« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2019, 06:58:18 PM »

Get what started e todd?  I just asked a question.  Why get so excited over a perfectly reasonable question?  You want to lock a thread down for asking a question?

DB
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Ned
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« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2019, 07:13:57 PM »

I think others have correctly pointed out that -- with a few exceptions -- CAP has little or no interest in your private life or how you express yourself on-line.

I actively participate on Facebook, and elsewhere in the social media universe.

Life is about balance, and I hope that is reflected on my FB page. 

CAP has been a major portion of my life for decades.  Heck, I met my beloved wife of 37 years in the program.  My kids were raised during and around CAP activates. I still typically do 3-4 weeks CAP "active duty" each year between COS, encampments, IACE, teaching at Command Council meetings, and generally waiving the CP flag whenever necessary.

That said, it can be hard to tell from my FB that I am in the organization.  Maybe 1-2% of my posts relate to CAP.  None of my profile pictures have ever shown me in CAP uniform.  It's not a secret of course, because I have literally hundreds of CAP friends who are also FB friends. 

But it is just that I have so many other interests.  I'm a major foodie.  I make award-winning wines from my own modest vineyard.  I travel extensively, mostly for my Uncle Sam.  And I do enjoy engaging with my friends in social media.

But given my day job as elected official under a fair amount of scrutiny, I also have rules.  My social media is locked down to friends only.  I don't friend cadets.  (Weird, huh?  But as the author of much of the CPP doctrine, it avoids issues.)  Nor do I friend people in the workplace over whom I have any control or input over their careers or cases.  And I don't discuss, share, or endorse partisan politics of any flavor or on matters of faith.  I don't "like" commercial ventures of any kind.  While I, on occasion, contribute to worthy causes endorsed by my friends, I never solicit charitable or political contributions. 

(Final note:  if you send me a friend request, and your profile picture and most of your posts are CAP-related, the odds are pretty good I will not accept.  Just as I favor balance, so too do I look for that in my friends.  Obviously, YMMV.  And you get to pick your own friends.)

 
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DKStoute
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« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2019, 07:26:47 PM »

Following
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OldGuy
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« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2019, 09:29:22 PM »

See https://www.cjonline.com/news/state-government/2017-09-17/kansas-civil-air-patrol-officer-reinstated-after-calling-legislator

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deepblue1947
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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2019, 09:54:57 PM »

Hi Old Guy,

All I can say after following that link is just, WOW.  The reason for my question was not anything quite as dynamic as that incident but did pertain to first amendment rights of expressing Christian beliefs and the meaning of Christmas. 

DB
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Simplex
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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2019, 10:35:05 PM »

With all the social media available today, and the impact that it can have on your life, I'd be very careful posting "anything" on social media.  College admissions reps and recruiters will look at your posts, prospective employers, maybe even military recruiters will check also.  Be careful!
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Eclipse
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« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2019, 10:35:39 PM »

The First Amendment does not apply, this is a common misnomer.

The First Amendment only applies to the Federal Government passing laws that restrict speech and religion.

CAP, per se, is a private organization, just like a business, and can place whatever restrictions it deems necessary
on its members, who then agree to abide by its rules, whatever those are.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2019, 10:43:36 PM »

FWIW, the only way to "win" Social Media is not to play.

How and why people don't understand that escapes me more each day with every divorce, drama, and "outing of whatever"
that happens more each day.
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Nor'easter
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« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2019, 10:54:40 PM »

FWIW, the only way to "win" Social Media is not to play.

How and why people don't understand that escapes me more each day with every divorce, drama, and "outing of whatever"
that happens more each day.

What is "winning" social media? Yes, it's chock full of issues and people of all ages acting like juveniles, but it seems to me that not participating in social media in the current age would be a "loss".  Managing one's social media and internet profile such as Nin said above essentially mitigates the nonsense - and you're left with the utility and connection that the platform provides. Choosing to abstain from all social media in this era doesn't seem like a "win" to me.

v/r, Capt Millennial
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Eclipse
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« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2019, 11:00:53 PM »

...it seems to me that not participating in social media in the current age would be a "loss". 

A loss of what?  Dopamine?
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OldGuy
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« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2019, 12:37:14 AM »

With all the social media available today, and the impact that it can have on your life, I'd be very careful posting "anything" on social media.  College admissions reps and recruiters will look at your posts, prospective employers, maybe even military recruiters will check also.  Be careful!
You get old enough and it does not matter.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2019, 12:39:38 AM »

Hi Old Guy,

All I can say after following that link is just, WOW.  The reason for my question was not anything quite as dynamic as that incident but did pertain to first amendment rights of expressing Christian beliefs and the meaning of Christmas. 

DB
Indeed. You have a great deal - near unlimited - freedom. That said, wing weenies will try to torment you. They have me. I make bad smells at them, metaphorically speaking, of course. And laughter, laughter helps.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2019, 12:40:20 AM »

...it seems to me that not participating in social media in the current age would be a "loss". 

A loss of what?  Dopamine?
Branding. Communication. Excitement. Laughter.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2019, 12:47:57 AM »

...it seems to me that not participating in social media in the current age would be a "loss". 

A loss of what?  Dopamine?
Branding. Communication. Excitement. Laughter.

Narcissism.

None of the things you mentioned is closed to people not wasting time in social media.

You share those things directly with actual friends and actual family, instead of
shouting at the windmills as
if anyone cares.

Grandma can see photos of the kids without subjecting the rest of the family to MLM pitches
via email of other direct sharing.

People use Twitbook for the gratification of the likes. 

Period.

Turn that useless site into a 1-way web experience with no "engagement" and it would die in a month.

To a point made above.  Why, on earth, would anyone get "political" on social media?
Beyond uncomfortable meals and alienated cousins, what the heck is the point?
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2019, 01:11:18 AM »

         /\
        /  \
       /    \
          |
          |
          |
          |
         /\


            :clap:

        :clap:    :clap:

  :clap:     :clap:     :clap:

Narcissism. Love it! The same reason why people take selfies.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 01:18:58 AM by Luis R. Ramos » Report to moderator   Logged
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Nor'easter
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« Reply #21 on: January 15, 2019, 01:32:16 AM »

...it seems to me that not participating in social media in the current age would be a "loss". 

A loss of what?  Dopamine?
Branding. Communication. Excitement. Laughter.

+1

It's ignorant to ignore the utility of these platforms, particularly for spreading awareness of our mission, Recruiting & Retention, PA, Marketing, and Strategic Communication. Not to mention its other numerous purposes, that are used by all levels of CAP echelon.

Turn that useless site into a 1-way web experience with no "engagement" and it would die in a month.

I feel compelled to engage on this subject, Eclipse. Narcissism, and being so severely one-sided across a discussion board, really can kill a site...
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SarDragon
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« Reply #22 on: January 15, 2019, 01:52:24 AM »

Facebook meets a need for me and my wife. We both have had significant health issues in the past five years, and FB has been a great vehicle for keeping friends and family up to speed on the latest happenings. I created closed groups that require vetting for membership, and the posts are available only to members.

As for FB in general, I generally avoid engaging in political or religious discussions. I set my permissions to just Friends, or Friends of Friends. I don't think anything I post on my own timeline is Public. Posts to groups are available to group members.
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Dave Bowles
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2019, 01:59:18 AM »

The First Amendment does not apply, this is a common misnomer.

The First Amendment only applies to the Federal Government passing laws that restrict speech and religion.

CAP, per se, is a private organization, just like a business, and can place whatever restrictions it deems necessary
on its members, who then agree to abide by its rules, whatever those are.

Correctamundo

This is exactly why a school can terminate you for posting nasty/dirty selfies on Instagram.

The Congress cannot infringe (despite regularly doing so); not your employer/host organization.
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PHall
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« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2019, 02:14:55 AM »

With all the social media available today, and the impact that it can have on your life, I'd be very careful posting "anything" on social media.  College admissions reps and recruiters will look at your posts, prospective employers, maybe even military recruiters will check also.  Be careful!

Yes military recruiters do check, gives them a "heads up" on who they are dealing with.
If you apply for just about any kind of security clearance you will be checked.

There's been more then a few stories out there how "outstanding" students lost college scholarships and admissions from what they have posted on social media.
People seem to forget that the internet is your "permanent record". Once you post it you can never take it back.
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etodd
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« Reply #25 on: January 15, 2019, 05:00:14 AM »

Page two and just about everyone replying has sidetracked to something else. He didn't ask about recruiters or anything like that. LOL
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deepblue1947
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Posts: 61

« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2019, 05:14:44 AM »

etodd, I think you may have been right in your initial post of where this might go. 

DB
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Fester
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« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2019, 06:33:18 AM »

...  I'm a major foodie.  I make award-winning wines from my own modest vineyard...

As a Chef and Sommelier, how would I go about getting a bottle or two of those wines?   :)
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CAP9907
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« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2019, 08:25:31 AM »

ok, I am going to call this 'asked and answered' with thanks to Ned for the assist.

I don't really want to lock this thread, but would like any further comments to be on-point and directly related to the original concern.

~ 9907
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deepblue1947
Member

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« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2019, 02:34:47 PM »

Get what started e todd?  I just asked a question.  Why get so excited over a perfectly reasonable question?  You want to lock a thread down for asking a question?

DB

Edited:  My apologies, it appears as if your initial assessment was correct. 

DB
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JeffDG
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« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2019, 04:13:16 PM »

The First Amendment only applies to the Federal Government passing laws that restrict speech and religion.
That hasn't been true since the 1925 (Gitlow v. New York 268 US 652)

The First Amendment applies to the federal, state and local governments along with agencies thereof.

That said, it most certainly does NOT apply to CAP.
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OldGuy
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« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2019, 04:20:14 PM »

The First Amendment only applies to the Federal Government passing laws that restrict speech and religion.
That hasn't been true since the 1925 (Gitlow v. New York 268 US 652)

The First Amendment applies to the federal, state and local governments along with agencies thereof.

That said, it most certainly does NOT apply to CAP.
OTOH the Kansas CC incident illustrates that, unless there is a specific CAP nexus, the organization ought to have a "hands off" policy vis-a-vis personal, non CAP posts. That has not and probably will not stop Wing weenies from being stupid, but it should.
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JeffDG
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« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2019, 04:30:05 PM »

The First Amendment does not apply, this is a common misnomer.

The First Amendment only applies to the Federal Government passing laws that restrict speech and religion.

CAP, per se, is a private organization, just like a business, and can place whatever restrictions it deems necessary
on its members, who then agree to abide by its rules, whatever those are.

Correctamundo

This is exactly why a school can terminate you for posting nasty/dirty selfies on Instagram.

The Congress cannot infringe (despite regularly doing so); not your employer/host organization.
Schools are an interesting case.  Public schools in particular.  Private schools can freely ignore the 1st Amendment, unless there is some state law that applies it.

The case you cite is correct.  A school can do that, basically they have a lower burden in the employer-employee relationship.  However, a public school could not fire you for, on your own time, and implying no endorsement from the school, standing in a park with a sign saying "Politician X should be impeached".  A private employer can fire you for that, but a public school could not.

Naked selfies tends to impact order and discipline in a public primary/secondary school.  I would guess that a professor at a public university, however, would be free to post all the nasty selfies he/she wanted to without fear of termination.
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JeffDG
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« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2019, 04:34:06 PM »

The First Amendment only applies to the Federal Government passing laws that restrict speech and religion.
That hasn't been true since the 1925 (Gitlow v. New York 268 US 652)

The First Amendment applies to the federal, state and local governments along with agencies thereof.

That said, it most certainly does NOT apply to CAP.
OTOH the Kansas CC incident illustrates that, unless there is a specific CAP nexus, the organization ought to have a "hands off" policy vis-a-vis personal, non CAP posts. That has not and probably will not stop Wing weenies from being stupid, but it should.
When asked for an opinion by the Wing Commander or other "wing weenies", I know that I advise a "mind your own business" approach.  If there is some expressed or implied endorsement of CAP, then that's CAP's business.

As an example, a member spouting off about politics...go ahead and enjoy.  If reading it offends you, you have plenty of options to mute/block such content yourself.  That same member puts themselves obviously in a CAP uniform in their profile pic, and you have an implied endorsement, and a simple request to change your profile pic is about as far as it should go.

I can also remember an instance that I was not involved in where a squadron commander was complaining about how much of a waste of time a "command call" meeting was while the Wing Commander was speaking, with a picture of the Wing King to boot.  IIRC, he received some...counselling...on decorum.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2019, 05:13:41 PM »

That same member puts themselves obviously in a CAP uniform in their profile pic, and you have an implied endorsement, and a simple request to change your profile pic is about as far as it should go.

Do you though?  Where's the line?

Is the mere awareness of affiliation with a given organization enough to imply endorsement of opinions by that same org?

Does listing your employer on Linked-In, along with 10 others, mean your post about "Which pop tart is best?" (frosted cinnamon, hands down)
imply that the plumbing contractor you work for feels the same?

Does a mere profile photo in uniform mean that anything you say on a given site = that service's opinion?

(This is separate from whether the org prefers you don't, or that people will try to make hay with the employer or org for "reasons".)

To some extent the through line on this would be that if you want to espouse "opinions", you should not be seen in public (IRL or online)
affiliated with any org that doesn't want the heat (which, BTW, law, regs, or otherwise, is what is referred to as "common sense").
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2019, 06:28:36 PM »

etodd, I think you may have been right in your initial post of where this might go. 

Totally.

ok, I am going to call this 'asked and answered' with thanks to Ned for the assist.

Indeed.

Naked selfies tends to impact order and discipline in a public primary/secondary school.  I would guess that a professor at a public university, however, would be free to post all the nasty selfies he/she wanted to without fear of termination.

Incorrect. You don't have a right to employment at the public institution; you have the right not to be legally punished/persecuted.


We're on the subject now of Constitutional rights vs. CAP policy. I feel like I'm back on my Facebook feed. We should lock this one.

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deepblue1947
Member

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« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2019, 07:34:02 PM »

I am truly sorry that this thread has taken the direction it has.  I really regret posting my question.

DB
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JeffDG
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« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2019, 07:36:26 PM »

Naked selfies tends to impact order and discipline in a public primary/secondary school.  I would guess that a professor at a public university, however, would be free to post all the nasty selfies he/she wanted to without fear of termination.

Incorrect. You don't have a right to employment at the public institution; you have the right not to be legally punished/persecuted.
Actually, no.

You have the right to the government not punishing you for your speech.  If that punishment is termination of your employment, that's also illegal for the government to do.

Go ahead and read Pickering v Board of Education if you disagree.  Teacher sent a letter to the editor criticizing the school board for their decisions.  In a private context, a company would be completely free to dismiss for that.  School Board did so, the 9 men in black disagreed and ordered reinstatement.  This was somewhat narrowed by Garcetti v. Ceballos in 2006, but that only permits dismissal if a teacher speaks as part of their job duties (ie. they do so in the classroom).
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Eclipse
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« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2019, 07:55:33 PM »

I am truly sorry that this thread has taken the direction it has.  I really regret posting my question.

?

A factual and respectful discussion of the actual issue?
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husker
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« Reply #39 on: January 15, 2019, 08:26:20 PM »



FWIW, the only way to "win" Social Media is not to play.


Eclipse is always good for a War Games quote. 

 https://youtu.be/6DGNZnfKYnU

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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deepblue1947
Member

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« Reply #40 on: January 15, 2019, 09:09:04 PM »

I am truly sorry that this thread has taken the direction it has.  I really regret posting my question.

?

A factual and respectful discussion of the actual issue?

"is anyone aware of any CAP Regulation that dictates what can or cannot be said on a members personal facebook page in regard to their religious or political beliefs?"

That was the original question, pretty much a yes or no question.  Do you see an answer somewhere in this thread to that specific question?

DB
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Eclipse
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« Reply #41 on: January 15, 2019, 09:29:38 PM »

At least three of the responses directly answered the question.

See also CAPR 35-3, Page 2 & 4, CAPM 39-1, Page 10, and CAPR 60-2.
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CAP9907
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« Reply #42 on: January 15, 2019, 09:31:29 PM »

... and that'll do it. Thanks for the replies everybody
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