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francisderosa16
Member

Posts: 97

« on: January 03, 2019, 12:02:09 AM »

Hello,
For Cadets, at what rank can a cadet give orders/commands to another cadet? In my squadron, our current highest ranking cadet is a Cadet Chief Master Sargent, so would this change anything?

Also I can't find the regulations to this?

[I'm a C/A1C and I've been put in command when our high ranking leaders were not there for a meeting. Is that different compared to other Squadrons?]

Sincerely,
Cadet DeRosa
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Anthony@CAP
Recruit

Posts: 42

« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2019, 12:34:45 AM »

There isn't going to be a hard and fast rule here, and your squadron leadership will be able to provide the best answer.

But generally, the ability to give orders/commands are limited to what has been delegated down by higher authorities. If you are unsure what your limits are in a given situation, you should just ask the person who put you in charge. If you aren't comfortable or are unsure, it's a good sign you should ask.

Additionally, you are always limited to the authorities granted by regulations; so if you are delegated command authority you can't order something that contravenes the regulations, and subordinates shouldn't follow those orders if you do (instead they should consult you or a higher authority with their concern).
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francisderosa16
Member

Posts: 97

« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2019, 01:39:41 AM »

Thank you for your response and explanation!  :-)  I will get in touch with my squadron! Happy New Year!
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coudano
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,131

« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2019, 01:56:48 AM »

You can give a command on your first day.

There might not be anybody listening, or obeying... but that alone doesn't really stop you from proclaiming commands.


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MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,955
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2019, 04:56:33 AM »

if given a position or task, you have the authority to carry out the duties of that position or task.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,670

« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2019, 05:03:07 AM »

Okay.....a chance for a little leadership lesson.


Authority (the ability to give orders) comes from three sources.

Line.
Staff.
Function.

Line Authority is the chain of command.   C/AB X belongs to an Element Leader, who belongs to a flight sergeant, who belongs to a flight commander, etc et al.

Staff Authority is the based upon grade and rank.   All Generals can order around all cols and all cols can order around Lt Cols and so forth.

Functional Authority is based upon your job.   The Safety Officer can order you to do something when it is related to safety.

In a perfect world these forms of authority never come into conflict.   But we don't live in a perfect world.

Basically  Line authority trumps staff authority.   For example your C/SSgt Element Leader tells you to do something and some random C/MSgt (not in your chain of command) tells you to do something different....you do what your Element Leader told you to do.
Likewise functional authority generally trumps staff authority.
Staff authority only comes into play when and if it does not come into conflict with the chain of command and functional authority.

So.....at what rank can you give orders?    The answer is C/AB can give orders to those under him in the chain of command (line authority) to those he out ranks by Time In Grade/Time In Service (Staff Authority) and if appointed to a particular function to anyone when it is related to accomplishing his appointed function. 

So......a C/A1C is appointed to take over for the C/MSgt (the Flight Sgt let's say) so you are now the Flight Sgt.....and you are top dog in the chain of command....even if there are C/SSgt and C/TSgt under you.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,667

« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2019, 03:39:31 PM »

Okay.....a chance for a little leadership lesson.


Authority (the ability to give orders) comes from three sources.

Line.
Staff.
Function.

Line Authority is the chain of command.   C/AB X belongs to an Element Leader, who belongs to a flight sergeant, who belongs to a flight commander, etc et al.

Staff Authority is the based upon grade and rank.   All Generals can order around all cols and all cols can order around Lt Cols and so forth.

Functional Authority is based upon your job.   The Safety Officer can order you to do something when it is related to safety.

In a perfect world these forms of authority never come into conflict.   But we don't live in a perfect world.

Basically  Line authority trumps staff authority.   For example your C/SSgt Element Leader tells you to do something and some random C/MSgt (not in your chain of command) tells you to do something different....you do what your Element Leader told you to do.
Likewise functional authority generally trumps staff authority.
Staff authority only comes into play when and if it does not come into conflict with the chain of command and functional authority.

So.....at what rank can you give orders?    The answer is C/AB can give orders to those under him in the chain of command (line authority) to those he out ranks by Time In Grade/Time In Service (Staff Authority) and if appointed to a particular function to anyone when it is related to accomplishing his appointed function. 

So......a C/A1C is appointed to take over for the C/MSgt (the Flight Sgt let's say) so you are now the Flight Sgt.....and you are top dog in the chain of command....even if there are C/SSgt and C/TSgt under you.

Love this explanation. I'm stealing it.
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francisderosa16
Member

Posts: 97

« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2019, 10:32:19 PM »

Okay.....a chance for a little leadership lesson.


Authority (the ability to give orders) comes from three sources.

Line.
Staff.
Function.

Line Authority is the chain of command.   C/AB X belongs to an Element Leader, who belongs to a flight sergeant, who belongs to a flight commander, etc et al.

Staff Authority is the based upon grade and rank.   All Generals can order around all cols and all cols can order around Lt Cols and so forth.

Functional Authority is based upon your job.   The Safety Officer can order you to do something when it is related to safety.

In a perfect world these forms of authority never come into conflict.   But we don't live in a perfect world.

Basically  Line authority trumps staff authority.   For example your C/SSgt Element Leader tells you to do something and some random C/MSgt (not in your chain of command) tells you to do something different....you do what your Element Leader told you to do.
Likewise functional authority generally trumps staff authority.
Staff authority only comes into play when and if it does not come into conflict with the chain of command and functional authority.

So.....at what rank can you give orders?    The answer is C/AB can give orders to those under him in the chain of command (line authority) to those he out ranks by Time In Grade/Time In Service (Staff Authority) and if appointed to a particular function to anyone when it is related to accomplishing his appointed function. 

So......a C/A1C is appointed to take over for the C/MSgt (the Flight Sgt let's say) so you are now the Flight Sgt.....and you are top dog in the chain of command....even if there are C/SSgt and C/TSgt under you.


THANK YOU SO MUCH! WE NEED MORE LEADERS LIKE YOU IN THE WORLD!
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JayT
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,339

« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2019, 10:58:44 PM »

WhT aspects of postive leadership traits did that post demonstrate?
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"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."
francisderosa16
Member

Posts: 97

« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2019, 12:26:24 AM »

WhT aspects of postive leadership traits did that post demonstrate?

The fact that is was somewhat a leadership lesson, with good information about CAP. I'd rather not argue, I made a compliment, let's just leave it at that.
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LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,852
Unit: Earth

« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2019, 02:31:59 PM »

WhT aspects of postive leadership traits did that post demonstrate?

The fact that is was somewhat a leadership lesson, with good information about CAP. I'd rather not argue, I made a compliment, let's just leave it at that.

JayT is not trying to argue with you, rather asking a follow-up question for your leadership development.  That is, what traits of positive leadership--e.g., integrity, honesty, decision-making, inspiring others, etc with more buzz-wordiness --did the post demonstrate?
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francisderosa16
Member

Posts: 97

« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2019, 08:34:09 PM »

WhT aspects of postive leadership traits did that post demonstrate?

The fact that is was somewhat a leadership lesson, with good information about CAP. I'd rather not argue, I made a compliment, let's just leave it at that.

JayT is not trying to argue with you, rather asking a follow-up question for your leadership development.  That is, what traits of positive leadership--e.g., integrity, honesty, decision-making, inspiring others, etc with more buzz-wordiness --did the post demonstrate?
Oh, sorry, I did not pick up on that.
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,670

« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2019, 08:09:14 AM »

Okay.....a chance for a little leadership lesson.


Authority (the ability to give orders) comes from three sources.

Line.
Staff.
Function.

Line Authority is the chain of command.   C/AB X belongs to an Element Leader, who belongs to a flight sergeant, who belongs to a flight commander, etc et al.

Staff Authority is the based upon grade and rank.   All Generals can order around all cols and all cols can order around Lt Cols and so forth.

Functional Authority is based upon your job.   The Safety Officer can order you to do something when it is related to safety.

In a perfect world these forms of authority never come into conflict.   But we don't live in a perfect world.

Basically  Line authority trumps staff authority.   For example your C/SSgt Element Leader tells you to do something and some random C/MSgt (not in your chain of command) tells you to do something different....you do what your Element Leader told you to do.
Likewise functional authority generally trumps staff authority.
Staff authority only comes into play when and if it does not come into conflict with the chain of command and functional authority.

So.....at what rank can you give orders?    The answer is C/AB can give orders to those under him in the chain of command (line authority) to those he out ranks by Time In Grade/Time In Service (Staff Authority) and if appointed to a particular function to anyone when it is related to accomplishing his appointed function. 

So......a C/A1C is appointed to take over for the C/MSgt (the Flight Sgt let's say) so you are now the Flight Sgt.....and you are top dog in the chain of command....even if there are C/SSgt and C/TSgt under you.

Love this explanation. I'm stealing it.
Feel free.   I wish this lesson was more clearly spelled out in our CAP leadership manuals.   Especially as CAP has so many instances where line/staff/functional authority come into conflict.     
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Idkreally
Newbie

Posts: 2

« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2019, 09:51:20 PM »

On this note what do you do if youre 3rd highest ranking (im the same ranks as my 1st/sgt at C/Msgt) and leader roles are given to people below you who arent NCOs
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jeders
Global Moderator

Posts: 2,158

« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2019, 09:55:35 PM »

On this note what do you do if youre 3rd highest ranking (im the same ranks as my 1st/sgt at C/Msgt) and leader roles are given to people below you who arent NCOs

Salute and execute as appropriate.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Idkreally
Newbie

Posts: 2

« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2019, 10:04:45 PM »

Even if theyre a C/Sra being rude?
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Shawn W.
Forum Regular

Posts: 102

« Reply #16 on: January 20, 2019, 02:27:37 AM »

First work on gaining respect of your peers. Worry about giving/issuing command and directives later.

The definition of Leadership as I learned it as a Cadet:

The art of influencing and directing people in a way the wins their kindness, respect and loyal cooperation in achieving a common objective.
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Shawn W.
Forum Regular

Posts: 102

« Reply #17 on: January 20, 2019, 02:30:31 AM »

Okay.....a chance for a little leadership lesson.


Authority (the ability to give orders) comes from three sources.

Line.
Staff.
Function.

Line Authority is the chain of command.   C/AB X belongs to an Element Leader, who belongs to a flight sergeant, who belongs to a flight commander, etc et al.

Staff Authority is the based upon grade and rank.   All Generals can order around all cols and all cols can order around Lt Cols and so forth.

Functional Authority is based upon your job.   The Safety Officer can order you to do something when it is related to safety.

In a perfect world these forms of authority never come into conflict.   But we don't live in a perfect world.

Basically  Line authority trumps staff authority.   For example your C/SSgt Element Leader tells you to do something and some random C/MSgt (not in your chain of command) tells you to do something different....you do what your Element Leader told you to do.
Likewise functional authority generally trumps staff authority.
Staff authority only comes into play when and if it does not come into conflict with the chain of command and functional authority.

So.....at what rank can you give orders?    The answer is C/AB can give orders to those under him in the chain of command (line authority) to those he out ranks by Time In Grade/Time In Service (Staff Authority) and if appointed to a particular function to anyone when it is related to accomplishing his appointed function. 

So......a C/A1C is appointed to take over for the C/MSgt (the Flight Sgt let's say) so you are now the Flight Sgt.....and you are top dog in the chain of command....even if there are C/SSgt and C/TSgt under you.

+1

Im stealing this too.. Well put and thank you for taking the time to expalin it.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,667

« Reply #18 on: January 20, 2019, 09:07:21 PM »

Even if theyre a C/Sra being rude?

If the C/SrA steps out of line, address it with their Flight Sergeant.

If the C/SrA steps out of line and it requires immediate correction right then, address it with that cadet. Then, go talk to the Flight Sergeant.

Don't discipline someone else's report unless it's an immediate crisis (safety matter or inappropriate conduct). Always go to the person's superior to let them know about the incident.
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OldGuy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 550
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #19 on: January 20, 2019, 10:31:19 PM »

Even if theyre a C/Sra being rude?
1 - rude is a 'subjective' term and without context here,
2 - the short answer is "yes" if it is a legal order,
3 - if there is an issue, politely and privately address that first with the order giver, if that fails then to your joint superior at the lowest level (flight sergeant or first sergeant), again with manners and in private.

Why "yes"? First you may have misinterpreted the 'rude' part, and second you are learning - and getting the "taking orders" side of having a "jerk" as a supervisor is, in fact, a learning experience. For both sides, btw.

Good luck as you grow in experience and wisdom, may your cadet career be filled with gentle tailwinds and lead to a wonderful life as an adult.
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Kayll'b
Recruit

Posts: 25
Unit: PCR-WA-080

« Reply #20 on: January 21, 2019, 06:01:24 AM »

Back to this are we.

I will just say, (and I want to say this respeclfully) that you don't seem to get the idea of how leadership works.

You don't join cap to order other cadets, you join cap to make the organization, the people in the organization, and the nation better. Again, not to order people around.

And that doesn't just apply to CAP.

I want to say this again, I don't want to be disrespectfull, while still trying to build up my fellow cadets.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,430

« Reply #21 on: January 21, 2019, 06:39:00 PM »


You don't join cap to order other cadets, you join cap to make the organization, the people in the organization, and the nation better. Again, not to order people around.


^^^ This. Well stated, and should be emphasized very early in CAP life of both Cadets AND Seniors when they join.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,667

« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2019, 08:07:32 PM »


You don't join cap to order other cadets, you join cap to make the organization, the people in the organization, and the nation better. Again, not to order people around.



I'm not so sure that was the cadet's intent in his OP.

I think he was asking---in maybe not so clear words---whether he was allowed to issue orders during his unit meeting if the cadet command leadership was absent and he was placed in charge of that particular meeting, without the corresponding duty assignment.

No Cadet Commander, no First Sergeant, no Flight Commander, no Flight Sergeant...he's it. He wants to know how he can run the meeting if that's what senior members expect (and this is where your cadre should be supervising...rather than going "Hey, kid, run the meeting; you're senior cadet" and disappearing).
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,549

« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2019, 08:16:26 PM »

If that's the actual question then I would say "no", from both a structural and practical perspective,
any more then a random senior should start trying to "Al Haig" things just because he happens to be the only
one there.

Granted, there is an inference of authority with cadet grade vs. how it's handled in the senior ranks,
but regardless, a unit meeting isn't a foxhole.  In the given example, the Senior Members should exhibit the
control they always have, and just get things done.

Absent anyone from the leadership senior or cadet being there, then at best everyone should just work together
to get whatever needs to be done, done, vs. getting tied up in grade and authority.

In that rare case that the seniors can't exert their authority and run a meeting, are there even enough people there to bother with a meeting?
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,667

« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2019, 08:23:23 PM »

If that's the actual question then I would say "no", from both a structural and practical perspective,
any more then a random senior should start trying to "Al Haig" things just because he happens to be the only
one there.

Now that was a heck of a reference.  :clap:

Quote
Granted, there is an inference of authority with cadet grade vs. how it's handled in the senior ranks,
but regardless, a unit meeting isn't a foxhole.  In the given example, the Senior Members should exhibit the
control they always have, and just get things done.

Absent anyone from the leadership senior or cadet being there, then at best everyone should just work together
to get whatever needs to be done, done, vs. getting tied up in grade and authority.

In that rare case that the seniors can't exert their authority and run a meeting, are there even enough people there to bother with a meeting?

This is why you establish the practice of succession of command, and you communicate the person in charge when absences will occur.

If the entire cadet leadership doesn't show up, without notice, that's when the cadre should intervene and later address it with the cadet staff that they left nobody in charge nor did they communicate it (particularly with the command staff).

If the leadership did, in fact, announce it, they should have an alternative plan of action.

But I totally agree, to have a bunch of "junior enlisted" airmen as the only ones present, that's a concern in itself. But I take that narrative with a grain of salt, particularly when it's coming from a C/A1C who may not have insight on the behind-the-scenes construct of the meeting.
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francisderosa16
Member

Posts: 97

« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2019, 09:45:44 PM »


You don't join cap to order other cadets, you join cap to make the organization, the people in the organization, and the nation better. Again, not to order people around.


^^^ This. Well stated, and should be emphasized very early in CAP life of both Cadets AND Seniors when they join.

That is spoken solid. I joined CAP to serve.
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FW
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,185

« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2019, 10:05:36 PM »


You don't join cap to order other cadets, you join cap to make the organization, the people in the organization, and the nation better. Again, not to order people around.


^^^ This. Well stated, and should be emphasized very early in CAP life of both Cadets AND Seniors when they join.

That is spoken solid. I joined CAP to serve.
True, however I joined for the coffee and donuts... >:D
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francisderosa16
Member

Posts: 97

« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2019, 10:45:25 PM »


You don't join cap to order other cadets, you join cap to make the organization, the people in the organization, and the nation better. Again, not to order people around.


^^^ This. Well stated, and should be emphasized very early in CAP life of both Cadets AND Seniors when they join.

That is spoken solid. I joined CAP to serve.
True, however I joined for the coffee and donuts... >:D

Coffee and Donuts!  ;D ;D ;D ;D Another good reason!
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τε
Global Moderator

Posts: 802
Unit: PCR-CA-205

« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2019, 11:13:56 PM »

This topic has run its course.
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