Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
February 22, 2019, 04:22:42 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: First Aid Training for Ground Team
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print
Author Topic: First Aid Training for Ground Team  (Read 1294 times)
Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,958

« on: January 02, 2019, 01:30:33 AM »

I searched the topic and threads were mostly 5+ years old, so...

I can't seem to find where exactly the requirements for "first aid training" are.  "Basic First Aid or equivalent" seems to come to mind, but where exactly does it state what equivalent is?  And what is a "first aid instructor?"

Years ago me and three others in my Squadron went to the ARC and got First Aid and CPR instructor qualified, but it was a crazy hassle and costly per person.  I have lapsed as an instructor by years and I'm not planning on going through that again.

Today, what is the best avenue for acquiring this qualification to meet the requirements for GTM?  I mean, although I'm not current, I've been an EMT for two decades, have completed two Tactical Combat Casualty Care courses, certified and recertified in Combat Lifesaver, been a Self Aid Buddy Care instructor in the Air Force, and like I said, spent several years as an ARC First Aid/CPR instructor.  If there was a curriculum, I'm confident I could teach it to standard with relevant hands-on training and even issue a cool certificate that could be uploaded as proof.

Since that's not gonna happen, what's the best go-to?
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,549

« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2019, 03:33:41 AM »

Per 60-3 it has to be an outside agency that meets the OSHA workplace FA standards.

IOW, it's not "someone in the unit who knows", or "mom who is a nurse", or the "local FD",
despite all three of those being presented regularly as avenues, nor do the AED certificates
that a lot of schools provide during health class as AED / CPR isn't even required for CAP ES.

If it is a member, during the training they have to be representing the certifying body,
not CAP, and in most cases their trainer agreement prohibits them from providing said training
without at least purchasing the requisite materials and cards, etc.

CAPR 60-3, Page 18:

"f. First Aid and Emergency Medical Care. CAP is not an emergency medical care or
paramedic organization and should not advertise itself as such. CAP will not be the primary
provider
of medical support on missions or training events though qualified personnel can be
used to support such activities.
The only type of medical aid that should be administered by
CAP personnel or by any other person at CAP's request is reasonable treatment deemed
necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering. This treatment must be executed by a person
qualified to attempt such medical care within their skill level. When first aid or higher medical
training is required for qualification in a particular specialty, the expectation is that the
qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken
on-line only are not acceptable
; though members are not considered employees when supporting
operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational
Settings available at http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf or ASTM F 2171-
02(2009), Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational
Settings.
CAP medical personnel are not provided supplemental malpractice insurance coverage,
and any care provided is at the members own risk. Though medical supplies and equipment are
not normally provided to responders, any reasonable supplies used on training or actual missions
may be submitted for reimbursement as long as sufficient justification is provided. "


The link in 60-3 is long since dead, however this KB article references an updates standard:
https://civilairpatrol.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/33000211381-online-first-aid-and-cpr-classes
https://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA3317first-aid.pdf

AHA and ARC have courses that meet the definitions, and in some areas units, groups, or wings have paid for
members to be certified as instructors who can then provide the training at the cost of the materials, however
the effective of this has been mixed at best as for starters these certifying agencies are for-profit bodies
not excited about having "free" instructors compete with people who do it for a living (YMWV based on the area).
Logged


Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,549

« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2019, 03:39:01 AM »

Years ago me and three others in my Squadron went to the ARC and got First Aid and CPR instructor qualified, but it was a crazy hassle and costly per person.  I have lapsed as an instructor by years and I'm not planning on going through that again.

A fried of mine who is a member had the same issue - he got certified primarily for CAP, and it was too much trouble and expense
to maintain the cert when he wasn't getting at least a few fully paid classes a year from outside CAP.

He used to be able to do classes for $10 a person, the cost of the book and the card, basically on-demand.

This is one of those areas where yo would like to think the MOU with the ARC would help get CAP where they need
to be, however just like with CFI's, competing too hard with people's livelihoods is a minefield at best.

Personally, I understand the need for at least the initial to be a full, in-face / hands-on class, especially for cadets
or other people new to ES and First Aid, but there's no reason recurrence can't be online.

CAP members aren't hanging IVs or putting in central lines, they are generally stabilizing and calling 911, and
between CAP, my kids (infant FA & CPR, etc), and my time as a motorcycle instructor, I mean how many different
ways are there to put pressure on a wound, elevate someone's feet, or not touch a live power line?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 03:42:44 AM by Eclipse » Logged


Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,549

« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2019, 03:45:57 AM »

One option:  https://emergencycare.hsi.com/first-aid-training
Logged


GroundHawg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 615

« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2019, 01:48:21 PM »

One option:  https://emergencycare.hsi.com/first-aid-training


The good thing about this is that once you get certified as an instructor with ASHI, you can have your squadron listed as a training center. At one time, we got quite a few new members from people wanting training and then finding out about us and joining. They also have a Wilderness First Aid program that is better suited for most GT operations. (and is required for the scouts)
Logged
LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,852
Unit: Earth

« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2019, 03:20:19 PM »

One option:  https://emergencycare.hsi.com/first-aid-training


The good thing about this is that once you get certified as an instructor with ASHI, you can have your squadron listed as a training center. At one time, we got quite a few new members from people wanting training and then finding out about us and joining. They also have a Wilderness First Aid program that is better suited for most GT operations. (and is required for the scouts)

Can you provide a bit more detail?  Cost to get members initially certified? Process to get members certified as instructors?  Process to get the training center?  Cost to members and/or squadron certified as instructors? Insurance needed for the squadron or instructors?  How much is the Wilderness First Aid? 
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,549

« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2019, 03:36:57 PM »

I don't know that it is a good idea to be listing a CAP unit as a training center, since by reg they can't be,
and members (per se) aren't allowed to provide training, especially to the general public.

If a unit member was / is providing training at a CAP unit location, I would hazard that's verboten,
even if it seems like no big deal, as it would certainly open the door to liability to CAP, Inc.

I don't see anything wrong with a member acting as an instructor handing out pamphlets, and / or
if the meeting space is a shared or public space doing it there, but it has to be made real clear that
people aren't getting insurrection from CAP or the USAF.
Logged


sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 942

« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2019, 04:16:06 PM »

Per 60-3 it has to be an outside agency that meets the OSHA workplace FA standards.

IOW, it's not "someone in the unit who knows", or "mom who is a nurse", or the "local FD",
despite all three of those being presented regularly as avenues, nor do the AED certificates
that a lot of schools provide during health class as AED / CPR isn't even required for CAP ES.

If it is a member, during the training they have to be representing the certifying body,
not CAP, and in most cases their trainer agreement prohibits them from providing said training
without at least purchasing the requisite materials and cards, etc.

CAPR 60-3, Page 18:

"f. First Aid and Emergency Medical Care. CAP is not an emergency medical care or
paramedic organization and should not advertise itself as such. CAP will not be the primary
provider
of medical support on missions or training events though qualified personnel can be
used to support such activities.
The only type of medical aid that should be administered by
CAP personnel or by any other person at CAP's request is reasonable treatment deemed
necessary to save a life or prevent human suffering. This treatment must be executed by a person
qualified to attempt such medical care within their skill level. When first aid or higher medical
training is required for qualification in a particular specialty, the expectation is that the
qualification course includes both knowledge and practical skills training; first aid courses taken
on-line only are not acceptable
; though members are not considered employees when supporting
operations, courses are expected to meet the National Guidelines for First Aid in Occupational
Settings available at http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/24000/24700/24757/ngfatos.pdf or ASTM F 2171-
02(2009), Standard Guide for Defining the Performance of First Aid Providers in Occupational
Settings.
CAP medical personnel are not provided supplemental malpractice insurance coverage,
and any care provided is at the members own risk. Though medical supplies and equipment are
not normally provided to responders, any reasonable supplies used on training or actual missions
may be submitted for reimbursement as long as sufficient justification is provided. "


The link in 60-3 is long since dead, however this KB article references an updates standard:
https://civilairpatrol.freshdesk.com/support/solutions/articles/33000211381-online-first-aid-and-cpr-classes
https://www.osha.gov/Publications/OSHA3317first-aid.pdf

AHA and ARC have courses that meet the definitions, and in some areas units, groups, or wings have paid for
members to be certified as instructors who can then provide the training at the cost of the materials, however
the effective of this has been mixed at best as for starters these certifying agencies are for-profit bodies
not excited about having "free" instructors compete with people who do it for a living (YMWV based on the area).

So you have made this statement before, but I dont see where in the 60-3 it actually says that.  Yes they have to be an instructor from one of those "certifying bodies"  but no where does it say they cant be a member of the organization.  I teach ACLS and CPR thru my work, they issue an AHA card.  I am not an AHA employee when I teach the class, they authorize my teaching institute to offer the certification and qualifiy me as an instructor as part of their agreement with the AHA (as long as we teach using thier curriculum and materials)  The references in 60-3 only talk about being a provider of medical support.

More over: 160-1
Quote
1-7. General Duties of Health Service Personnel. CAP health service personnel are
responsible for advising CAP commanders and unit personnel on the health, fitness, disease and
injury prevention and environmental protection of CAP members relevant to CAP activities, with
special emphasis on those members involved in flying, emergency services and disaster relief
activities, field exercises, encampments and special activities.
a. Provide advice in writing via memorandum or email; verbal advice may be given in an
emergency, but will be documented as soon as possible; advice or other guidance will be limited
to the memberís area of expertise, and appropriate consultation should be sought otherwise.
b. Provide or arrange for the provision of training in first aid, CPR and other life-saving
measures by a certifying agency (American Red Cross, American Heart Association, American
Safety and Health Institute, National Safety Council, etc.).

c. Provide or arrange for the provision of OSHA compliant blood-borne pathogen/disease
prevention training, primarily to support operational mission needs for task based training (see
CAPR 60-3, CAP Emergency Services Training and Operational Missions, and ground team
Specialty Qualification Training Record requirements within eServices and Ops Quals).

Yes we have debated many times here there are regs that contradict each other, but there is no contradiction here.  One reg says provide or arrange, one doesnt say anything about it. Maybe I am missing where it says that a CAP element cant be a teaching center based on agreement

MK
Logged
Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 942

« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2019, 04:25:13 PM »

One option:  https://emergencycare.hsi.com/first-aid-training


The good thing about this is that once you get certified as an instructor with ASHI, you can have your squadron listed as a training center. At one time, we got quite a few new members from people wanting training and then finding out about us and joining. They also have a Wilderness First Aid program that is better suited for most GT operations. (and is required for the scouts)

Can you provide a bit more detail?  Cost to get members initially certified? Process to get members certified as instructors?  Process to get the training center?  Cost to members and/or squadron certified as instructors? Insurance needed for the squadron or instructors?  How much is the Wilderness First Aid?

HMRS (and I think NESA) use Emergency Care and Safety Institute
https://www.ecsinstitute.org/
There is no cost to create a training center, complete the application and they will approve you in a few days

Instructors can be grandfathered based on current/previous teaching experience or complete an instructor trainer course provided by another ECSI training center.

Costs are must have the required instructor resource program for whatever course you are teaching and then students have to buy the book (the course completion card is included as part of that course.  The cost per book is reduced if purchased direct by the training center vs the strudent and if more than 10 at a time.  (you can charge whatever rate you want for a course on top of the cost of the book, there is no minimum or maximum)  So no its not"free" but if an individual member starts their own training center or a CAP element of some level, the cost can be limited to the cost of the teaching package and the book price per student.

They offer a multitude of relevant course options including Basic and Advanced First Aid, Wilderness first aid (the same one the BSA uses, and it has 8, 16 and 32 hour course options) Emergencey Medical Responder, and the full realm of CPR and AED
(there is one package that is First aid and CPR in one, so 1 cost for teaching package and 1 book option and you can teach everyting you would minimally need)

I have found over the years they are the easiest to work with in regards to instructors materials costs etc.

MK
Logged
Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,549

« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2019, 04:45:27 PM »

Yes we have debated many times here there are regs that contradict each other, but there is no contradiction here.  One reg says provide or arrange, one doesnt say anything about it. Maybe I am missing where it says that a CAP element cant be a teaching center based on agreement

The underlined and rest of that sentence above is unambiguous.  CAP does not provide medical care or training.

The training required has to be from an outside certifying body.

Of course there are plenty of CAP members who are also instructors, however when providing that
instruction they are doing so under the auspices of the certifying body, not as a CAP member, should not be in a
CAP uniform, and need to make it clear that they are not acting as a CAP member during the training.

Anything else would open CAP up to liability they are literally and specifically disavowing.

The whole point here is that in the case of injury or death related to first aid, either by omission or commission,
the corporation has a legitimate cause to be removed from the suit at least in as much as they did not provide the training.
Logged


sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 942

« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2019, 04:53:48 PM »

.....

Since that's not gonna happen, what's the best go-to?

The other route I have persued in the past is the USAF SABC course.  There is an allowance for non CBT course conduct of SABC (at least the last time I was an instructor).   Citing the AFI 10-2701: installation support.  included but not limited to.. they could make available instructors and training equipment and provide an AF course completion certificate.  (if you have a really good relationship with an AF entity, they might even be willing to make some of your personnel instructors and you can conduct the class on your own, just reporting back numbers trained)

This was easy when I was a Cat A reservist and SABC instructor trainer, others may have to jump thru a few more hoops.  Personally, though its likely very low on the prioroity list, this is one of those things that I think CAP and CAP-USAF could try to work out between the organizations. (and much easier than the ARC angle) to provide no cost First Aid training to CAP members, that would meet the standard of expectation.  (since in fact is designed for application on among other things, USAF missions)

MK
Logged
Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,549

« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2019, 05:03:17 PM »

This was easy when I was a Cat A reservist and SABC instructor trainer, others may have to jump thru a few more hoops.  Personally, though its likely very low on the prioroity list, this is one of those things that I think CAP and CAP-USAF could try to work out between the organizations. (and much easier than the ARC angle) to provide no cost First Aid training to CAP members, that would meet the standard of expectation.  (since in fact is designed for application on among other things, USAF missions)

I totally agree that this makes sense, and depending on what service a unit is near would be a great way to make contact,
increase visibility, etc., etc., however I would also guess that the same aversion to liability would keep the USAF
out of training CAP members as well.

The pockets there are even deeper and the line even more direct.
Logged


sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 942

« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2019, 05:04:27 PM »

...

The underlined and rest of that sentence above is unambiguous.  CAP does not provide medical care or training.

...


OK maybe I'm being dense, it doesnt say training.  It says training events, and that is stated in relation to providing medical support.  And again a seperate reg states that a member CAN provide training.  I know you have a hard case for HSO's, but here is one case where it does actually say they can do something


MK
Logged
Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 942

« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2019, 05:06:49 PM »

This was easy when I was a Cat A reservist and SABC instructor trainer, others may have to jump thru a few more hoops.  Personally, though its likely very low on the prioroity list, this is one of those things that I think CAP and CAP-USAF could try to work out between the organizations. (and much easier than the ARC angle) to provide no cost First Aid training to CAP members, that would meet the standard of expectation.  (since in fact is designed for application on among other things, USAF missions)

I totally agree that this makes sense, and depending on what service a unit is near would be a great way to make contact,
increase visibility, etc., etc., however I would also guess that the same aversion to liability would keep the USAF
out of training CAP members as well.

The pockets there are even deeper and the line even more direct.

I imagine that the agreement would have to be at the wing level, and then either delegated or administered below that level within CAP.  The wing HSO being the POC/report back to the USAF element they are working with.

MK
Logged
Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,748

« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2019, 05:07:01 PM »

I am in agreement with SARMED.

I am an American Heart Association BLS Instructor. As such I can teach part-time for Organization X BLS, CPR, and First Aid. I also offer the same class with the same standards to CAP units in my area. I offer the class at a discount, charging only what it costs me to acquire materials. The costs are, per person:

1. Manual. About $12.
2. Certificate. About $15.
3. Manikin  lungs, gloves, safety valve for CPR mask. About $5.

I tell my CAP students we will follow AHA standards, and that is what I follow, if not, my Teaching Center will not issue cards.

I do not teach brothers, sisters, parents or friends of CAP members. If known by other companies that I am doing this at a discount they will be pretty upset. And there is potential of liability as this is a CAP activity.

To answer another question, initial costs for someone to get certified depend on the organization. But they include, for the AHA:

1. Take the basic CPR class. $80.
2. Take a CPR instructor class. $380.
3. Manikins. Depending on brand, they can cost as little as $100 to as much as $1,000. You would need an adult and baby manikins, at a minimum.
4. AED trainer. Depending on brand, somewhere between $100-$150.
5. Manikins require cleaning materials and other materials to keep them sanitary. Includes practice masks, lungs, and safety valves.

When I took the American Red Cross CPR First Aid class, a few years ago, we had to:

1. Take the basic class.
2. Pay for a pre-instructor class. Basically being tested to see whether you knew the info taught in the basic class.
3. Pay for the instructor class.

Do not remember the cost of each but would be about $500 for all.

ASHI costs are lower. And as someone else posted, ASHI Wilderness First Aid may be a better class for our members than the ones taught by AHA and ARC.

And lastly, did I say it is also suggested that when you become an instructor, you insure yourself? I have a policy of $1,000,000. If something happens during class, I could get sued.

I also have my own company but there are a lot of companies teaching CPR First Aid in this area.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 05:16:24 PM by Luis R. Ramos » Logged
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,549

« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2019, 05:11:02 PM »

This is old road not solvable here.  I read the regs as unambiguous.

When I've spoken to the Ops directorate and NHQ about this over the years, the answer
was decidedly "CAP doesn't provide the training directly". 

Considering this is literally a life and death issue, and I like my house, this is a thread I am
not willing to split, nor would I allow anyone in my charge to split it.

With that said, get your Wing CC to approve it and then at least you're theoretically covered from that aspect.

Logged


Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,549

« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2019, 05:13:05 PM »

I am in agreement with SARMED.

On which point?

When you are teaching class you are not a CAP member.  I guarantee you if you asked your teaching center the
question directly they would tell you the same thing.
Logged


Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,748

« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2019, 05:50:43 PM »

They do not care what CAP is. They expect me to behave as if I am teaching for them, any other student. But unlike when I teach for them they set the price, it is my class, and they say I can charge my own price.


Logged
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,549

« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2019, 06:58:05 PM »

They do not care what CAP is. They expect me to behave as if I am teaching for them, any other student. But unlike when I teach for them they set the price, it is my class, and they say I can charge my own price.

Yep, that's how it works.
Logged


Stonewall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 3,958

« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2019, 01:50:49 AM »

Okay, I'm caught up. I followed a little on my phone, but my work network doesn't allow CAP Talk, so I didn't reply.

When I (and 3 others in my Sq) were ARC FA/CPR instructors we exclusively catered to CAP and held countless FA/CPR classes for my wing. Probably certified as many as 100 people over the course of 2-3 years. It was a CAP activity (approved by wing) and we were instructors certified by ARC and we paid their required costs, which was not cheap.

BTW, I looked up FA/CPR classes locally given by ARC and they're $110 for 3-4 hours of training. What a crock! But I guess that's how they make a living.

I'm going to explore some of the options and get it done. This shouldn't be that hard. First aid is first aid these days. My first exposure to "Basic First Aid" as a CAP member was as a cadet at Camp Blanding, FL in 1987 with a Vietnam Veteran Combat Medic who basically had us running a 60 hour full-on Expert Field Medic Badge program to include three "mass" incidents with moulage, including squirting blood and amputations. Only thing missing was scorched earth and care under fire.

We basically need to know that we (CAP) is NOT a "medical care or response" agency and therefore not covered for malpractice, etc.  Sign that, and go forth and do good first aid things.
Logged
BraveRifles19D
Member

Posts: 66

« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2019, 05:22:59 PM »

Contact one of the local volunteer fire departments that are a training center, explain who you are and that you would to become an instructor and run classes under their training center for your unit. You would need to take the instructor class again. Don't forget about the instructor student ratio, either.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Logged
sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 942

« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2019, 11:44:48 PM »

Contact one of the local volunteer fire departments that are a training center, explain who you are and that you would to become an instructor and run classes under their training center for your unit. You would need to take the instructor class again. Don't forget about the instructor student ratio, either.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

Without some kind of intro by a mutually affiliated/known person the likelihood of success of this model is low.  For a multitude of reasons.  First is just the random guy shows up and says this this and this and wants something basically for free.  Secondly, everyone's area is different:  In my current area for example, 99% of the fire departments don't do anything medical except assist EMS, so they have usually minimal medical training as well, let alone be their own training site for any kind of first aid training.  If you find one, you are still likely to have to pay for the classes, instructor certification etc.  I would say top end they may agree to provide the training to the squadron at a limited cost.  Maybe eventually they might come around to allowing someone(s) from the local unit become an instructor once they get to know them. But, that's a big maybe; and likely a relationship cultivated after numerous courses and coordination (aka years)

Using that model, you are basically more likely to find assistance from a BSA troop or crew for their Wilderness First Aid certification from ECSI; but same thing, the likelihood that the local troop/crew is the actual training center vs the local council is also low and they aren't likely to allow you to be an instructor free reign under them.  (more of a mutual exchange of assistance, they provide first aid in exchange CAP helps provides assistance with SAR or aviation merit badge sort of deal)

MK

Logged
Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print 
CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: First Aid Training for Ground Team
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.103 seconds with 25 queries.