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Author Topic: CAPR 60-1 and PRB's?  (Read 6320 times)
i_am_a_politician
Recruit

Posts: 23

« on: December 21, 2018, 07:32:30 AM »

Hi all,

I noticed the old 52-16 had a section regarding PRB's and specifically says that one must be performed.  However, with the new 60-1, I can't seem to find anything about review boards. Are they still authorized?  If so, are we allowed to ask aerospace-related questions from their AE modules or do we still have to follow the guidelines set forth in the old 52-16?
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C/2d Lt Politician
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,389

« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2018, 04:06:03 PM »

Check out Para 5.7.2  They're now called "Mentoring Meetings".
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,461

« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2018, 04:07:40 PM »

"Door knock promotion boards" aren't really a "thing" anymore, and a lot of units abandoned the practice
ages ago.

Between the required 60-90 series leadership feedback sessions, and feedback meetings, not to mention
ongoing SDA performance reviews, etc., that should provide the information a Commander needs to
assess a promotion approval.

Units still choosing to do "door knocks" should (as a best practice) have it documented as an SOP and
insure they are applied consistently to all cadets.

See page 19 of CAPP 31 and Page 27 of CAPR 60-1.

Personally I have seen a lot of PRBs used as a hammer and excuse not to promote a cadet,
and far less situations where the feedback tools are used to help cadets.  In many cases this is
because of inconsistency in application, not to mention improper attitude of the receiver.
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baronet68
Forum Regular

Posts: 130
Unit: PCR-WA-001

McChord.org
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2018, 09:09:16 PM »

...are we allowed to ask aerospace-related questions from their AE modules or do we still have to follow the guidelines set forth in the old 52-16?

Why would you want to "re-test" a cadet on materials which they have already been tested and passed?
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Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
Secret Wing Staff Dude, WAWG
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,461

« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2018, 09:12:41 PM »

...are we allowed to ask aerospace-related questions from their AE modules or do we still have to follow the guidelines set forth in the old 52-16?

Why would you want to "re-test" a cadet on materials which they have already been tested and passed?

A handy way to "gotcha" a nervous cadet.   That rule has been in the regs for a long time, yet people
still do it, especially newer cadet officers boarding other cadets in the mistaken belief that if you can't rattle
off some random knowledge point under pressure you shouldn't be promoted.

My question would be what an "aerospace related question" has ever had to do with a promotion board.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,461

« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2018, 09:17:27 PM »

((*snip*)) or do we still have to follow the guidelines set forth in the old 52-16?

To this specific point, you never use anything from a superseded regulation except for kindling or
as a general-curiosity reference as to what changed.

The only rules and processes in force are the ones that are indicated as the current revision.
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baronet68
Forum Regular

Posts: 130
Unit: PCR-WA-001

McChord.org
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2018, 09:28:26 PM »

I recently stumbled across what I consider to be an excellent pool of open-ended promotion board questions.

These questions are from Wisconsin's La Crosse Composite Squadron (WI-037):

Quote
    Question Bank
  • Identify a goal you have achieved during the past three months.  How did you achieve this goal? What did you learn in the process of achieving this goal?
  • What is your greatest strength?  How do you put this to best use to improve our squadron?  What is your greatest weakness?  In what ways do you plan to improve or work on this weakness?
  • What does integrity mean to you?  Cite an example of how your integrity has been challenged or where having integrity has helped you?
  • What does excellence mean to you?  Give an example, since your last promotion, of how you have lived the Core Value of Excellence?
  • What are three ways in which you feel the squadron could improve?  Have you taken any steps to improve the squadron since your last promotion that relate to one of these areas?  If yes, what did you do and what was the result.  If no, why not?
  • What level of leadership/followership is expected of a cadet in your phase?  Explain how you have met that standard over the past three months.  Cite examples.
  • What is the most important idea or concept you have learned in the CAP Cadet Program so far?  How has learning that affected your life outside of CAP?
  • Identify all your ribbons.  Explain what each ribbon you have is for and how you earned it.
  • What are the CAP Core Values?  Give an example, from the past three months, of how you have lived each one of the Core Values in your life outside of CAP.
  • What has been the hardest idea/skill/concept for you to master in CAP?  Have you fully mastered it yet?  If yes, how did you do that?  If no, what is your plan to improve?
  • Identify three self-improvement goals you have for yourself over the next 12 months.  Pick one of those goals and explain your plan for achieving it.
  • Identify someone, outside of CAP, who is a role-model for you.  Why is this person a role-model?  What do you learn by watching them?
  • In your life outside of CAP, who is a mentor in your life?  What have you learned from this mentor?
  • If you see a cadet wearing the uniform with a major uniform infraction, how do you react?  Would you see this as a “teachable moment”?  If you do, what can you use the moment to teach about?
  • If a new cadet was to join CAP, what advice would you give him/her?


Asking one or two of these should truly identify opportunities for improvement and shed some light on a cadet's readiness for their next steps in CAP.
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Michael Moore, Maj, CAP
Secret Wing Staff Dude, WAWG
i_am_a_politician
Recruit

Posts: 23

« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2018, 09:33:39 PM »

...are we allowed to ask aerospace-related questions from their AE modules or do we still have to follow the guidelines set forth in the old 52-16?

Why would you want to "re-test" a cadet on materials which they have already been tested and passed?

A handy way to "gotcha" a nervous cadet.   That rule has been in the regs for a long time, yet people
still do it, especially newer cadet officers boarding other cadets in the mistaken belief that if you can't rattle
off some random knowledge point under pressure you shouldn't be promoted.

My question would be what an "aerospace related question" has ever had to do with a promotion board.

To follow up on that, I was asked on a Lindbergh Achievement about airport lighting about 2 years ago.  I did point out to the senior conducting it that such a question was not allowed but I still had to answer it.  I was wondering because I wanted to be prepared for other PRB's I might have to sit in on.
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C/2d Lt Politician
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,461

« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2018, 11:31:46 PM »

I recently stumbled across what I consider to be an excellent pool of open-ended promotion board questions.

These questions are from Wisconsin's La Crosse Composite Squadron (WI-037):

Quote
  • Question Bank
  • Identify a goal you have achieved during the past three months.  How did you achieve this goal? What did you learn in the process of achieving this goal?
  • What is your greatest strength?  How do you put this to best use to improve our squadron?  What is your greatest weakness?  In what ways do you plan to improve or work on this weakness?
  • What does integrity mean to you?  Cite an example of how your integrity has been challenged or where having integrity has helped you?
  • What does excellence mean to you?  Give an example, since your last promotion, of how you have lived the Core Value of Excellence?
  • What are three ways in which you feel the squadron could improve?  Have you taken any steps to improve the squadron since your last promotion that relate to one of these areas?  If yes, what did you do and what was the result.  If no, why not?
  • What level of leadership/followership is expected of a cadet in your phase?  Explain how you have met that standard over the past three months.  Cite examples.
  • What is the most important idea or concept you have learned in the CAP Cadet Program so far?  How has learning that affected your life outside of CAP?
  • Identify all your ribbons.  Explain what each ribbon you have is for and how you earned it.
  • What are the CAP Core Values?  Give an example, from the past three months, of how you have lived each one of the Core Values in your life outside of CAP.
  • What has been the hardest idea/skill/concept for you to master in CAP?  Have you fully mastered it yet?  If yes, how did you do that?  If no, what is your plan to improve?
  • Identify three self-improvement goals you have for yourself over the next 12 months.  Pick one of those goals and explain your plan for achieving it.
  • Identify someone, outside of CAP, who is a role-model for you.  Why is this person a role-model?  What do you learn by watching them?
  • In your life outside of CAP, who is a mentor in your life?  What have you learned from this mentor?
  • If you see a cadet wearing the uniform with a major uniform infraction, how do you react?  Would you see this as a “teachable moment”?  If you do, what can you use the moment to teach about?
  • If a new cadet was to join CAP, what advice would you give him/her?


Asking one or two of these should truly identify opportunities for improvement and shed some light on a cadet's readiness for their next steps in CAP.

These are all pretty good.

(I can't figure out why that list tag is hanging.  I delete and it comes back.)

Fixed.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 11:54:25 PM by SarDragon » Logged


Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,461

« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2018, 11:35:49 PM »

To follow up on that, I was asked on a Lindbergh Achievement about airport lighting about 2 years ago.  I did point out to the senior conducting it that such a question was not allowed but I still had to answer it.  I was wondering because I wanted to be prepared for other PRB's I might have to sit in on.

Yeah, asking something like that would definitely be verboten, and I'd be impressed by the cadet who
respectfully reminded me I wasn't allowed to ask that.

With that said, as a cadet, you need to tread lightly in those situations, perhaps addressing it
with reg in hand (and maybe parent in tow) outside the promotion process.

There are very good reasons why this has been a rule for a long time, but there are always
people who are uninformed, or just "know better" and ignore the rules.
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jeders
Global Moderator

Posts: 2,142

« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2018, 06:00:21 PM »

Hi all,

I noticed the old 52-16 had a section regarding PRB's and specifically says that one must be performed.  However, with the new 60-1, I can't seem to find anything about review boards. Are they still authorized?  If so, are we allowed to ask aerospace-related questions from their AE modules or do we still have to follow the guidelines set forth in the old 52-16?

The information you are looking for is found in paragraph 5.7.2 in CAPR 60-1, as previously mentioned, as well as in Section 2.7 of CAPP 60-31.

In short, promotion review boards, now termed leadership feedback meetings, are still required at least once per phase. If conducted in conjunction with a promotion it is highly recommended, though not necessarily required, that the cadet be informed of whether or not they are going to be promoted at the very beginning of the meeting. In other words, the feedback meeting is not a test that you must pass, it is simply an opportunity for your leadership to give you feedback as well as for you to give feedback to your leadership.

I recently stumbled across what I consider to be an excellent pool of open-ended promotion board questions.

These questions are from Wisconsin's La Crosse Composite Squadron (WI-037):

Quote
  • Question Bank
  • Identify a goal you have achieved during the past three months.  How did you achieve this goal? What did you learn in the process of achieving this goal?
  • What is your greatest strength?  How do you put this to best use to improve our squadron?  What is your greatest weakness?  In what ways do you plan to improve or work on this weakness?
  • What does integrity mean to you?  Cite an example of how your integrity has been challenged or where having integrity has helped you?
  • What does excellence mean to you?  Give an example, since your last promotion, of how you have lived the Core Value of Excellence?
  • What are three ways in which you feel the squadron could improve?  Have you taken any steps to improve the squadron since your last promotion that relate to one of these areas?  If yes, what did you do and what was the result.  If no, why not?
  • What level of leadership/followership is expected of a cadet in your phase?  Explain how you have met that standard over the past three months.  Cite examples.
  • What is the most important idea or concept you have learned in the CAP Cadet Program so far?  How has learning that affected your life outside of CAP?
  • Identify all your ribbons.  Explain what each ribbon you have is for and how you earned it.
  • What are the CAP Core Values?  Give an example, from the past three months, of how you have lived each one of the Core Values in your life outside of CAP.
  • What has been the hardest idea/skill/concept for you to master in CAP?  Have you fully mastered it yet?  If yes, how did you do that?  If no, what is your plan to improve?
  • Identify three self-improvement goals you have for yourself over the next 12 months.  Pick one of those goals and explain your plan for achieving it.
  • Identify someone, outside of CAP, who is a role-model for you.  Why is this person a role-model?  What do you learn by watching them?
  • In your life outside of CAP, who is a mentor in your life?  What have you learned from this mentor?
  • If you see a cadet wearing the uniform with a major uniform infraction, how do you react?  Would you see this as a “teachable moment”?  If you do, what can you use the moment to teach about?
  • If a new cadet was to join CAP, what advice would you give him/her?


Asking one or two of these should truly identify opportunities for improvement and shed some light on a cadet's readiness for their next steps in CAP.

Only a few of these are actually appropriate to a leadership feedback meeting and some are strictly forbidden as the cadet has already answered these questions through the achievement tests. Remember, these meetings are to be guided by the CAPF 60-90 series which was filled out prior to the feedback meeting.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2018, 07:03:34 PM by SarDragon » Logged
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,461

« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2018, 06:32:16 PM »

In other words, the feedback meeting is not a test that you must pass, it is simply an opportunity for your leadership to give you feedback as well as for you to give feedback to your leadership.

This.
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i_am_a_politician
Recruit

Posts: 23

« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2018, 03:51:04 AM »

In other words, the feedback meeting is not a test that you must pass, it is simply an opportunity for your leadership to give you feedback as well as for you to give feedback to your leadership.

This.

My leadership actually changed to this mindset/style recently.  Basically, I was told that if you passed your F60-9 review, you will walk in and know you are going to be promoted and that the meeting was going to be more of a "discussion".  This essentially is the new "PRB" correct?
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C/2d Lt Politician
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,461

« Reply #13 on: December 28, 2018, 04:47:50 AM »

My leadership actually changed to this mindset/style recently.  Basically, I was told that if you passed your F60-9 review, you will walk in and know you are going to be promoted and that the meeting was going to be more of a "discussion".  This essentially is the new "PRB" correct?

Very simply put, however the 60-90 isn't a "pass/fail" - you've done that work in the academics and PT.

It sounds like they have the right idea but some old nomenclature is being stretched to fit the new process.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,389

« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2018, 04:49:31 AM »

In other words, the feedback meeting is not a test that you must pass, it is simply an opportunity for your leadership to give you feedback as well as for you to give feedback to your leadership.

This.

My leadership actually changed to this mindset/style recently.  Basically, I was told that if you passed your F60-9 review, you will walk in and know you are going to be promoted and that the meeting was going to be more of a "discussion".  This essentially is the new "PRB" correct?

Well it is called a "Mentoring Meeting", so what do you think? Mentoring is not usually one way. You need feedback to know if it's working or not.
Unlike a PRB you get to ask questions too. The object is for you to learn something and to show you're ready for the promotion.
We're talking about things like maturity level and attitude. Remember, your Squadron Commander does not have to promote you if they don't think you're ready.
And attitude and maturity levels are part of the answer.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,626

« Reply #15 on: December 28, 2018, 07:27:32 PM »

You'll always have people who walk in going "I'm not sure if I'll 'pass'"...that's a nerves thing. Nerves can get the best of anyone, and all logic goes out the window.

Nobody should be scared about going in to hear something they don't want to hear---because that's the stuff that should have been addressed well before they enter a board. If someone goes into a board, and the staff knows that this cadet will be sustained in grade, and the cadet doesn't, there's a feedback breakdown occurring along the way.

I've had the "Can I get a review board" to which I've replied, "Let's meet next week...informal..." *meet up* "Okay, so let's not worry about boards and promoting just yet; let's go over some things here, okay?" Situations like that, I feel, work better in a mentoring position where you're being informal enough to get the point across in a relaxed environment using the form as the rubric/guidance. Then, I'll close it out with "So, I don't have promoting authority, but I'll be the one to recommend to the Commander what I think he should do...but what would you recommend based on what we just talked about if you were me?"

If they say "I think I need to improve on some things," we can hold off on scheduling a board because they already recognize that they're not ready to advance yet. If they think they should promote, let's conduct the board and go over it formally. And, often times, in cases like that, I'll let the board do its thing and sit off to the side and not contribute; leave it for others' perspective.

You have to be flexible and dynamic with how you handle feedback based on the feedback needed at that time. Feedback toward promotions should reflect on readiness for increased responsibilities that come with increased rank and possible changes to duty assignments. Feedback, say, following running a class or an activity should be relative to that event, and should be handled differently from promotion feedback.

If you're running a quality leadership program to where you're putting people in positions of responsibility that take them to the edge of their comfort level, you should have a lot of feedback being provided---both written and verbal as necessary. Nobody should be shocked along the way except for their own performance at the time of occurrence.

Remember: You offering feedback about a person's readiness should also reflect on the assignments that you, as a superior cadet or senior, placed that person into. If they seem to be struggling in higher-level roles, are you preparing them to take those on before assigning them, and that's stuff you can absolutely discuss in those feedback sessions.

Boards can be formal when it comes to reporting and whatnot. But the feedback component should be relaxed so they're focusing on what you're saying and not sitting rigid taking none of it in because they're worried they're shirt is untucking in the back.
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NIN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 5,071
Unit: of issue

« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2018, 03:22:07 AM »

Before they were "mentoring meetings" I wound up on our promotion board and cadets were straight up frightened of me (part was my rep, part was stories that weren't true).

I had one troop come in for his SSgt board and he was just a pile of nerves.  A raw pile of nerves.  Couldn't report, couldn't spit his name out, etc. 2-3 minutes in, he's in total kernel panic. Nothing he's going say, or we're going to say is going to make this go better.

I held up my hands, said "Airman, let's have a little do-over here. You go out, send the next guy in, and you collect yourself and we'll do your board after him, OK?"

Before the next guy came in, I went out and  talked to him, got him calmed down, breathing etc. He came back in and was smooth with some minor issues, which we covered.

He later became my cadet commander and is halfway thru his sophomore year at the Zoo.

There's a difference between productive and wasteful, and his board was going to be wasteful if we didn't change the vector on the spot. Some folks don't get that and won't deviate, much to the detriment of the cadet.

.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2019 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,665

« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2018, 04:35:42 AM »

Much as NIN is stating.....that is was what I saw a lot of as cadets "met the board".    I just stopped it all together.

We held promotion boards once a month per the schedule.  We pulled the records of each cadet eligible for promotion and we discussed their readiness to be promoted.  We then called in the cadet discussed their progress in the program, gave them feed back via the CAPF 50 and sent them on their way.    If they were not going to be promoted they knew why, how we expected their behavior to change and in what time frame we expected it to change.   If they were going to be promoted they knew how they were meeting the expectations of the program and what we expecting out of them at their next rank.   We did a formal promotion ceremony the following week.

We did make them report in and we made them recite the cadet oath....but that ended the "formal" portion of they board.

We had already made the decision to promote/retain before they even knocked on the door. 
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 177

« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2018, 08:32:07 AM »

As a cadet from '92 to '97 who earned my Eaker in '96, i don't recall ever sitting before a PBR for a promotion.  I do remember a few when applying for Encampment Staff positions, but that's it.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,389

« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2018, 02:04:26 PM »

As a cadet from '92 to '97 who earned my Eaker in '96, i don't recall ever sitting before a PBR for a promotion.  I do remember a few when applying for Encampment Staff positions, but that's it.

Totally depended on what squadron you were in. Some units did them and some didn't.
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: CAPR 60-1 and PRB's?
 


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