Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 26, 2019, 08:49:38 AM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadets Dating
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 [All] Send this topic Print
Author Topic: Cadets Dating  (Read 2570 times)
cadetcadet
Newbie

Posts: 2
Unit: Sq 9244888

« on: December 09, 2018, 10:38:48 PM »

Hi

A cadet officer in my squadron recently encouraged us not to date other cadets because he has been there and done that and even tho they are friends now he said he doesn't recommend dating other cadets.

This got me thinking.

How many other cadets (or maybe even senior) have dated.  Is it a common occurrence?
Report to moderator   Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,661

« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2018, 11:07:00 PM »

CAP is not a dating service.

Do cadets date each other? Yes.

Is it a good idea?  No.

Do seniors date each other?  Yes.

Is it a good idea?  No.

(We all know the answer to the inevitable third question).

For every tale of "I met my wife in CAP." you will find 10 more where the
situation ended poorly, negatively impacted good order and discipline, with
the ultimate consequences ranging from hurt feelings to former members.
Report to moderator   Logged


CAPDepCom
Member

Posts: 55

« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2018, 01:36:49 AM »

CAP is not a dating service.

No one implied it is.

Do cadets date each other? Yes.

Is it a good idea?  No.

Everyone's mileage varies on this.  The mileage which doesn't vary is that it isn't against regulations.  And that CAP also isn't a substitute for parenting.  As long as CAP regulations aren't being violated, parents get to make those decisions, not CAP.

Do seniors date each other?  Yes.

Is it a good idea?  No.

Consenting adults+America+free country+free will = no one else's business.  And still not against regulations.

For every tale of "I met my wife in CAP." you will find 10 more where the
situation ended poorly, negatively impacted good order and discipline, with
the ultimate consequences ranging from hurt feelings to former members.

Source?  Statistics to support this claim?

Bottom line: I wouldn't recommend cadet dating.  And just like I think dating a co-worker is a bad idea, dating a CAP senior member can turn out badly, and make for some severe awkwardness.  But, if what's happening isn't against regs, it's really no one else's business and not for anyone to decide for another.  Remember, CAP is a volunteer organization.  Leadership should not overstep boundaries.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 01:43:04 AM by CAPDepCom » Report to moderator   Logged
Slim
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 592

« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2018, 02:35:50 AM »

CAP is not a dating service.

No one implied it is.


Do cadets date each other? Yes.

Is it a good idea?  No.

Everyone's mileage varies on this.  The mileage which doesn't vary is that it isn't against regulations.  And that CAP also isn't a substitute for parenting.  As long as CAP regulations aren't being violated, parents get to make those decisions, not CAP.

He's not implying that it is against regulations, either.  Although it certainly could be in certain instances.  Ref CAPR 60-2 Para 2.2.1 and 2.


Do seniors date each other?  Yes.

Is it a good idea?  No.

Consenting adults+America+free country+free will = no one else's business.  And still not against regulations.

Again, I see no implications or hints that  it is against regulations.

For every tale of "I met my wife in CAP." you will find 10 more where the
situation ended poorly, negatively impacted good order and discipline, with
the ultimate consequences ranging from hurt feelings to former members.

Source?  Statistics to support this claim?

I think anyone would be hard pressed to come up with statistics to back up that claim.  However, much like Eclipse, I'll go with what my years of experience has shown.  Which is, for every successful CAP relationship, you'll find a significant number of utter failures.  Some of which have in fact had significant adverse effects to the unit involved.

Bottom line: I wouldn't recommend cadet dating.  And just like I think dating a co-worker is a bad idea, dating a CAP senior member can turn out badly, and make for some severe awkwardness.  But, if what's happening isn't against regs, it's really no one else's business and not for anyone to decide for another.  Remember, CAP is a volunteer organization.  Leadership should not overstep boundaries.

As a wise old sage in my chosen profession, I'm often looked to for advice on a wide variety of topics, to include workplace relationships.  And, much like CAP, where they can-and often do-end badly, my advice is always "Don't get your money and your honey from the same source."  In a CAP context, my advice to the couple in question-cadet or senior-is always "Do what you're going to do, just keep it out of my squadron."  As the unit commander, when a relationship problem from outside gets drug into the squadron, and begins to affect things like good order and discipline, or the smooth and proper functioning of the unit, then it absolutely becomes a problem for leadership to deal with.
Report to moderator   Logged

Slim
CAP9907
Global Moderator

Posts: 131

« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2018, 02:43:35 AM »

To answer the OP:

Does it happen: Yes.

How often: it varies.

Is it a good idea: YMMV.

-9907
Report to moderator   Logged
19 yrs of service

Our Members Code of Conduct can be found here:   http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=13.0
CAPDepCom
Member

Posts: 55

« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2018, 03:47:06 AM »

for every successful CAP relationship, you'll find a significant number of utter failures.

Well golly, isn't that pretty much true in all walks of life, period?  For every successful relationship with another person, you'll find a good number of utter failures.  Few people find their significant other on the first try.  It's called playing the romance game and it's been going on like that for time immemorial.
Report to moderator   Logged
OldGuy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 561
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2018, 03:51:15 AM »

As that  "oldguy" I agree with Eclipse. I married my cadet sweetheart though so back when I was younger (well, a LOT younger) I paid no attention to that kind of well meaning advice. (And yes, our squadron Chaplain suggested I not go down the path I did. I married her anyway.)

Maybe better are ways to help our cadets understand and manage their issues?

For example my wife and I as unmarried cadets NEVER exhibited PDA in uniform or at sponsored events - as in NEVER.  Our rule and it helped.

Again, Eclipse is right. But then there is reality.

(PS 42 years and counting, if you want to know!)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 03:55:08 AM by OldGuy » Report to moderator   Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,661

« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2018, 03:58:05 AM »

for every successful CAP relationship, you'll find a significant number of utter failures.

Well golly, isn't that pretty much true in all walks of life, period?  For every successful relationship with another person, you'll find a good number of utter failures.  Few people find their significant other on the first try.  It's called playing the romance game and it's been going on like that for time immemorial.


And it's a game best played away from CAP.

The same goes for Scouts, work, or any place else people have to work closely together and
may wind up in situations that breed nepotism, favoritism, or worse, exclusion.

People will do what they do, but anyone who pushes back too much on the "you can't make me"
side of something common sense says is a poor idea, that raises eyebrows, regulations or no.

There are also any number of states and situations where specific kinds of contact between cadets is illegal.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 04:03:18 AM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


OldGuy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 561
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2018, 04:11:28 AM »


People will do what they do, ....
I did.


Yep. As is often the case, Eclipse is right. (Maybe not terribly relevant, but right!)
Report to moderator   Logged
CAPDepCom
Member

Posts: 55

« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2018, 04:14:20 AM »


anyone who pushes back too much on the "you can't make me"
side of something common sense says is a poor idea, that raises eyebrows, regulations or no.

And with teens/young adults, that's exactly why you don't want to hammer away on the "don't do it" part of your personal opinion message on this issue.  The more you say "don't", the more likely they *will*.  It's the "don't stuff beans up your nose" effect.

In regard to adults: it's a volunteer program.  Aside from set rules and regulations, it's best to not tell grown adults what they can and can't do when you are in a volunteer environment.  Tick them off over something you didn't need to tick them off about and you risk losing them.  CAP already has an attrition issue and statistics show that too large a percentage of senior members leave after their first six months.  Why create a problem where there doesn't have to be or isn't one?

There are also any number of states and situations where specific kinds of contact between cadets is illegal.

Pretty sure most, if not all reading this, already know that.
Report to moderator   Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,661

« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2018, 04:16:26 AM »

Why create a problem where there doesn't have to be or isn't one?

Exactly.
Report to moderator   Logged


I_Am_Twigs
Forum Regular

Posts: 117
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2018, 05:22:02 AM »

I have been through this experience as well, I would not recommend it, in fact I'd highly advise against it.

Having said that, there are a few cadets in my squadron that are dating each other, I really don't care what they do, or when they do it, as long as they keep it outside of CAP and outside of uniform.
Report to moderator   Logged
Mitchell #68874
Encampment 2016, 2017, 2018
C/2nd Lt, CAP
 
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,689

« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2018, 03:35:26 PM »

I've had cadets date in my unit, and it didn't work out...fairly badly, actually. One ended up leaving (among other reasons, not just dating, but it contributed).

I've had cadets pass love letters to each other---one of the same individuals from the above relationship---and pulled them aside to have the "I don't care what you do outside of CAP, but it ends at the parking lot" discussion.

Honestly, I think it's something not to even bring up internal to CAP (outside of Cadet Protection Program policies regarding adult relationships). If cadets date, and it doesn't seem to be an issue, whatever; not my business. If cadets date, and there are signs that it's affecting CAP, there's going to be a chat.

I wouldn't warn anyone not to date until it actually becomes an issue, or if someone asks me for advice (and I've had that one as well). I'm not going to be 'that person' throwing weight around like I'm policing something that hasn't yet occurred.
Report to moderator   Logged
CAPDepCom
Member

Posts: 55

« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2018, 04:44:48 PM »

Why create a problem where there doesn't have to be or isn't one?

Exactly.

"Exactly"... you're missing my point (intentionally?).  What does seem to be happening with your response is you trying to twist my words to suit your point - please don't (it would be appreciated).

What people do in their personal lives is none of CAP's business as long as it isn't against the law, isn't against regulations, and isn't negatively affecting their participation in CAP.  I say again: CAP is a volunteer service.  Joining CAP doesn't mean CAP has control over member's personal lives - we are a volunteer auxiliary of the USAF, we aren't the USAF.  Further, members may have an opinion of how other CAP members conduct their personal lives, but that's neither here nor there.  What people do on their own time away from CAP is beyond CAP's purview and control (with the exceptions I listed above).  It's simply not the business of other CAP members (with the exceptions I listed above).  To try and push a personal moral and ethical standard belief system onto other members is wrong and should never be tolerated.  Indeed, it is a form of discrimination and discrimination is simply not condoned or tolerated in CAP.  In other words... when it comes to the personal lives of CAP members, other members should keep their opinions to themselves and butt out.  Even in this forum.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 04:57:50 PM by CAPDepCom » Report to moderator   Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,661

« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2018, 06:26:23 PM »

What people do in their personal lives is none of CAP's business as long as it isn't against the law, isn't against regulations, and isn't negatively affecting their participation in CAP.

So Commanders and leaders should just look the other way regarding a legitimate issue that
regularly affects squadrons and members in a negative way?  Just wait until things are broken
to bring it up?

This is how you "lead"?

One of the primary roles of the CP is to provide good examples and guide adolescent
members to making good choices. This is literally the intent of the CDI program.

Further, 60-2 has language that actively discourages cadet fraternization in a number
of specific and very common cases, and 265-2 has several sessions which include discussions
of cadet dating relationships, including one which reinforces why these relationships are poor choices
and can negatively impact both individuals and the organization as a whole.

More to the point, "suggesting a common-sense best practice" "enforcing your will" or any
of the other leaps made, it's the responsibility of Commanders and other leaders as defined by the curriculum.

If and when people won't listen, at least no one can make the claim that it was never addressed or discouraged.
Report to moderator   Logged


THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,904

« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2018, 06:56:37 PM »

The same can be said for any membership organization, team, or the classroom. Want to put a bunch of highly motivated teenagers together and expect that they won't form personal relationships? Not gonna happen. It's worse in schools. At least with CAP, they're only forced together for an hour or so every week. Part of dabbling in relationships, is learning how to manage them when they end. That also, is leadership.
Report to moderator   Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Slim
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 592

« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2018, 09:04:51 PM »

and isn't negatively affecting their participation in CAP
There's the key, right there.  When these relationships do go south, and start to negatively affect their participation in CAP, it's incumbent upon those of us in command positions to take the necessary steps to ensure that it stops.
Some people are successful at managing their relationships in and out of CAP.  Others are not.  When they are not, and it starts affecting CAP, then its time to have some uncomfortable conversations.

Report to moderator   Logged

Slim
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,689

« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2018, 01:05:26 AM »

and isn't negatively affecting their participation in CAP
There's the key, right there.  When these relationships do go south, and start to negatively affect their participation in CAP, it's incumbent upon those of us in command positions to take the necessary steps to ensure that it stops.
Some people are successful at managing their relationships in and out of CAP.  Others are not.  When they are not, and it starts affecting CAP, then its time to have some uncomfortable conversations.

And at that time, if it develops to become an issue that fails to stop, we take disciplinary action, if required.

If you're so infatuated with another cadet that you're not taking your tests or promoting, not my issue. We'll have that discussion when the time comes to address your lack of progression.

If you guys broke up, and you don't leave the other cadet alone, and it becomes a case of harassment, we're going to have a serious chat, and I might have to get parents involved to talk about where this can escalate if it isn't fixed.

But until that stuff happens, I'll keep an eye out for it. I'm not going to intervene. I won't pull you aside and give a lecture until I see an issue starting to develop.


It's literally permitted under CAPR 60-2. Let's leave it at that and move on.
Report to moderator   Logged
OldGuy
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 561
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2018, 01:35:09 AM »

It's literally permitted under CAPR 60-2. Let's leave it at that and move on.

2.2.2. Cadet-to-Cadet Fraternization. It is not inherently improper for cadets to have personal or romantic relationships with other cadets; however, ...

...relationships between cadets of substantially different ages or grades, or between cadets within the same chain of command, are discouraged.

Cadets will not engage in inappropriate touching or displays of affection by kissing, hugging, or similar conduct while at a
CAP activity
Report to moderator   Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,661

« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2018, 01:47:06 AM »

CAPR 265-2, Page 31-32
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P265_002_91CF616EC6FAD.pdf


"SUMMARY
In this case study we saw a cadet struggle with choosing the right person for the job or choosing a
personal friend. In some cases, the friend might also be the right person for the job. But this opens
you up to the appearance of choosing favorites. In other cases, if the friend is not the best person for
the job, this can put a strain on your relationship.

REMOTIVATION
Friendships and dating relationships can confuse our choices in CAP, especially when those close
friends are above or below you in the chain of command. The best choice is always the one that puts
the needs of the squadron ahead of personal desires. "


Page 46:

"OBJECTIVE
The objective of this lesson is for cadets to discuss the hazards of fraternization."


"REMOTIVATION
While Civil Air Patrol does not want to invade the private lives of its members, there are some
relationships that must be prohibited or discouraged for reasons of safety, decorum and unit
efficiency."


Clearly indicates what NHQ considers as the best practice, banned or not.

Further to this, consider the times in which CAP exists - not the days gone by
where cadets went home after a meeting and were removed from other members
and various pressures, but one where many cadets are intimately involved in all aspects
of each other's lives thanks to social-media, and even worse, the
hyper-sensitive nature of that same media in which the most minor transgressions and
well-intention-ed mistakes become grounds for the pitchfork mobs.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 01:56:31 AM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,904

« Reply #20 on: December 11, 2018, 01:05:00 PM »

Further to this, consider the times in which CAP exists - not the days gone by
where cadets went home after a meeting and were removed from other members
and various pressures, but one where many cadets are intimately involved in all aspects
of each other's lives thanks to social-media, and even worse, the
hyper-sensitive nature of that same media in which the most minor transgressions and
well-intention-ed mistakes become grounds for the pitchfork mobs.

Which makes preventing, regulating, prohibiting, or frowning upon relationships between members (cadets and SM) even more impossible. It's prohibited by an actual LAW with real consequences in the RM. Doesn't seem to stop it from happening. How do your local schools handle bad break ups? Mine offers a schedule change, but in a lot of cases, the participants are both a part of the same social circles or academic or athletic teams. Can't keep them out of the same airspace at all times. Same with CAP. So what is the answer? CAP is ill equipped to offer relationship counseling or advice (see our relationship with the USAF as an example of why), can't really effectively keep cadets away from each other....In larger units, they could offer a change of assignment (i.e make Suzie the Cadet ES Assistant and Johnny the Cadet Admin Assistant) but that's about it. Much like the real world that CAP is a microcosm of, teens are gonna teen....
Report to moderator   Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
CAPDepCom
Member

Posts: 55

« Reply #21 on: December 11, 2018, 02:16:20 PM »

CAPR 265-2, Page 31-32
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P265_002_91CF616EC6FAD.pdf


"SUMMARY
In this case study we saw a cadet struggle with choosing the right person for the job or choosing a
personal friend. In some cases, the friend might also be the right person for the job. But this opens
you up to the appearance of choosing favorites. In other cases, if the friend is not the best person for
the job, this can put a strain on your relationship.

REMOTIVATION
Friendships and dating relationships can confuse our choices in CAP, especially when those close
friends are above or below you in the chain of command. The best choice is always the one that puts
the needs of the squadron ahead of personal desires. "


Page 46:

"OBJECTIVE
The objective of this lesson is for cadets to discuss the hazards of fraternization."


"REMOTIVATION
While Civil Air Patrol does not want to invade the private lives of its members, there are some
relationships that must be prohibited or discouraged for reasons of safety, decorum and unit
efficiency."


Clearly indicates what NHQ considers as the best practice, banned or not.

Further to this, consider the times in which CAP exists - not the days gone by
where cadets went home after a meeting and were removed from other members
and various pressures, but one where many cadets are intimately involved in all aspects
of each other's lives thanks to social-media, and even worse, the
hyper-sensitive nature of that same media in which the most minor transgressions and
well-intention-ed mistakes become grounds for the pitchfork mobs.

None of this is permission for senior members to tell cadets they can't date each other outside of CAP or to take on the role of a parent/family member.  When you think about it, doing so is crossing a boundary and, while not against regulations, it's a real dangerous road to go down.  Be a mentor but don't attempt to parent or replace parents/family by advising on matters not directly related to CAP.  Doing do is unwise and quite unprofessional.  Leave the subject to be dealt with by the chaplains and CDIs through character trait tips/curriculum presented during meetings.
Report to moderator   Logged
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,613
Unit: Classified

« Reply #22 on: December 11, 2018, 02:54:17 PM »

CAPR 265-2, Page 31-32
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/P265_002_91CF616EC6FAD.pdf


"SUMMARY
In this case study we saw a cadet struggle with choosing the right person for the job or choosing a
personal friend. In some cases, the friend might also be the right person for the job. But this opens
you up to the appearance of choosing favorites. In other cases, if the friend is not the best person for
the job, this can put a strain on your relationship.

REMOTIVATION
Friendships and dating relationships can confuse our choices in CAP, especially when those close
friends are above or below you in the chain of command. The best choice is always the one that puts
the needs of the squadron ahead of personal desires. "


Page 46:

"OBJECTIVE
The objective of this lesson is for cadets to discuss the hazards of fraternization."


"REMOTIVATION
While Civil Air Patrol does not want to invade the private lives of its members, there are some
relationships that must be prohibited or discouraged for reasons of safety, decorum and unit
efficiency."


Clearly indicates what NHQ considers as the best practice, banned or not.

Further to this, consider the times in which CAP exists - not the days gone by
where cadets went home after a meeting and were removed from other members
and various pressures, but one where many cadets are intimately involved in all aspects
of each other's lives thanks to social-media, and even worse, the
hyper-sensitive nature of that same media in which the most minor transgressions and
well-intention-ed mistakes become grounds for the pitchfork mobs.

None of this is permission for senior members to tell cadets they can't date each other outside of CAP or to take on the role of a parent/family member.  When you think about it, doing so is crossing a boundary and, while not against regulations, it's a real dangerous road to go down.  Be a mentor but don't attempt to parent or replace parents/family by advising on matters not directly related to CAP.  Doing do is unwise and quite unprofessional.  Leave the subject to be dealt with by the chaplains and CDIs through character trait tips/curriculum presented during meetings.

You've got to be tired of this SJW agenda by now.
Report to moderator   Logged
CAPDepCom
Member

Posts: 55

« Reply #23 on: December 11, 2018, 03:03:09 PM »

You've got to be tired of this SJW agenda by now.

Trying to follow the non-sequitur here.  Care to explain and/or elaborate with clarity on what you're trying to say?
Report to moderator   Logged
Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
*
Posts: 762

« Reply #24 on: December 11, 2018, 03:47:27 PM »

I'm about to shut this one down if it spirals anymore. There is a clear difference of opinion here. If we can't agree, then agree to disagree and move on.
Report to moderator   Logged
Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,689

« Reply #25 on: December 11, 2018, 05:12:09 PM »

Bottom Line:
Suggestions and discouragements are not mandates.

Cadets may date. Seniors can address boundary concerns and internal issues that result from cadet relationships when necessary to benefit the parties involved in their participation in CAP and to protect the privacy of their members.


Examples of when it might be appropriate for seniors to intervene in cadet relationships:
- Cadets are holding hands during an activity that does not warrant physical contact
- Cadets in a known relationship are having frequent semi-private discussions during meetings
- Cadets in a relationship are serving on one another's review board and/or common staff pairings where command authority and professionalism may be jeopardized
- A cadet is sharing personal information or photos of another cadet with others
- An older cadet in a higher staff position is suggesting a junior cadet dates him/her to advance in the program

Examples of when it really isn't my business, as a senior, to intervene:
- Cadets are standing outside after a meeting talking in a polite, professional manner while waiting for their rides home
- Cadets are in a public relationship outside of CAP activities but show no emotional attachments during CAP activities


Really, if there's nothing to say what's occurring inappropriate or unprofessional, and it isn't demonstrated at CAP, it's not my concern.

If there's an issue outside of CAP to where I think inappropriate activities may be occurring which jeopardizes the safety and/or well-being of the persons involved, then I can bring it up.

Honestly, if there's hanky panky going on with cadets outside of CAP, I don't want to know. Leave it at the door. Don't make it my issue by bringing it up at CAP.

Report to moderator   Logged
Pace
CAPTalk Moderator
Dark S'Member Lord
*
Posts: 762

« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2018, 06:26:47 PM »

Nice summary. Let's stop while we're ahead. If someone feels there is something else significant to contribute, PM me.
Report to moderator   Logged
Lt Col, CAP
Former C/Lt Col
Former this & that
Squadron guy
Pages: 1 2 [All] Send this topic Print 
CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Cadets Dating
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.079 seconds with 26 queries.
click here to email me