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Author Topic: ABU Fleece Jacket with insignia or not  (Read 6479 times)
Picy3
Recruit

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« on: December 04, 2018, 10:45:33 PM »

So as a recent uniform item to keep me warm I got the ABU Fleece Jacket ("FLEECE JACKET - FOLIAGE GREEN", as vanguard calls it.) and in the past I have seen cadets put their insignia on a Black (maybe dark blue, i haven't looked closely) square tab. Now I have heard a many of people saying "no you cant put it there" and "yes thats fine" so after some inconclusive asking around I decided I might as well ask here.

I have heard some people say its out of regs to not have your rank showing on the outside but also that you cannot put your rank on the jacket itself (come on cadets, make up your mind! ???)? I would just really like this clarified so when I receive it (its on order) I can wear it correctly, plus I am going to staff a winter encampment as Support staff and would not want any arguments about the subject without proof or anything so a definite answer would be very helpful.
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arajca
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2018, 10:59:49 PM »

Reference the ABU Wear instruction letter. While the rank wear is explicitly described, the graphic shows the rank being worn.
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BraveRifles19D
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2018, 11:53:58 PM »

Vanguard sells the blue Velcro square for the NCO rank. It's $1.30. Be careful pinning the rank on it, though. The material is very tough and it it is best to go very slow or you will bend the pins. Also pin it through the square and the fleece as well.

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Picy3
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2018, 11:57:41 PM »

Vanguard sells the blue Velcro square for the NCO rank. It's $1.30. Be careful pinning the rank on it, though. The material is very tough and it it is best to go very slow or you will bend the pins. Also pin it through the square and the fleece as well.

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Yeah I also ordered that though vanguard says that its on backorder and might not get to me for some time.  :-\
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SarDragon
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« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2018, 03:19:13 AM »

This is the rank placement for the black fleece, pre-color change. It describes, in detail, the placement of all three required items. The ICL image for the green fleece matches these instructions.

Quote
6.1.12.3. The black fleece is not authorized to be worn solely over a t-shirt, thermal
underwear, etc. When worn as an outergarment, it will have a cloth name tape in ultramarine with white
letters (only last name will be used) mounted on black Velcro between the zipper and sleeve seam on the
wearer‘s right chest. It will also have a 2 inch squared ultramarine cloth Velcro square flushed and
centered above the last name tape on the wearer‘s right chest. A “Civil Air Patrol” ultramarine blue tape
with white letters will be mounted on black Velcro even with the last name tape and centered between the
zipper and sleeve seam on the wearer‘s left chest.

6.1.12.3.1. Officer and NCO Rank Insignia. Officers will wear embroidered rank
insignia on ultramarine blue material on the front of the fleece as noted above. The General Officer rank
will be positioned horizontally with a point of each star pointing upward. General Officers will wear 1-
inch stars. General Officers unable to wear 1-inch stars will wear ¾-inch stars. The Colonel rank insignia
is worn with the eagle‘s beak pointed towards the wearer‘s right shoulder (indicates the eagle is facing
forward) and will be centered horizontally. The stem of the Major and Lieutenant Colonel rank will point
toward ground. The long end of the Flight Officer, Lieutenant and Captain bars will be positioned
vertically. NCOs will wear their rank device in metal on ultramarine blue material.

6.1.12.3.2. Cadet Rank Insignia. Cadet officers will wear embroidered rank
insignia on ultramarine blue material on the front of the fleece as noted above. Cadet officer insignia is
centered horizontally with the long points on the cadet field grade insignia positioned vertically, and each
subsequent circle of cadet company grade insignia added horizontally. Cadet NCOs and Airmen will
wear their rank device in metal on ultramarine blue material; cadet airmen basic wear no device.

6.1.12.3.3. The black fleece will be zipped no lower than the top of the nametape.
The collar will be folded over and resting on the shoulder, chest, and back when the zipper is not
completely zipped. The bottom length of the black fleece will match as closely as possible to the bottom
length of the Corporate Field Uniform shirt. It will be worn with the sleeves down, not pushed or rolled
up, and will remain in neat and serviceable condition at all times.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2018, 03:33:24 AM »

Try finding a black fleece with Velcro nametape and rank patches, lol!

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arajca
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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2018, 03:58:50 AM »

Try finding a black fleece with Velcro nametape and rank patches, lol!

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On my coat rack.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2018, 04:31:54 AM »

Try finding a black fleece with Velcro nametape and rank patches, lol!

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On my coat rack.

+1 (x's 2 actually)

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SarDragon
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2018, 05:13:10 AM »

Try finding a black fleece with Velcro nametape and rank patches, lol!

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Vanguard item CAP0991TS_
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Dave Bowles
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Stonewall
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2018, 02:24:20 PM »

I just spotted a full rack of foliage fleeces at Wright-Patterson AFB and none of them had Velcro.  I asked the MCSS lady about it and she said people are seweing name/AF tapes and drank directly to the jacket.  I have yet to see anyone so this, but then again, I’m the only one I’ve seen since 1 Oct with my tapes, badges, and rank sewn directly to my OCPs in lieu of the ever annoying hook and loop.
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mdickinson
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 12:20:43 PM »

Gov’t issue foliage-green fleeces are available on eBay (new and used) and they already have the three pieces of green Velcro on them.

Used ones in good condition are available for $18 and up. New ones are $32 - $49.


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NIN
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2018, 02:07:02 PM »

Gov’t issue foliage-green fleeces are available on eBay (new and used) and they already have the three pieces of green Velcro on them.

Used ones in good condition are available for $18 and up. New ones are $32 - $49.

This right here ^

Got mine on Ebay for like $15 or 18. Worth it!
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2018, 04:06:16 PM »

More often than not, I see cadets who keep a blank patch on it, or none at all, where insignia would go. This is technically out of uniform, as your insignia must be visible on all cadet uniforms and in the appropriate place.

If/when you get the fleece, wear it only with the appropriate accouterments---all of them, as required---and don't go around with the "Oh, yeah, I just haven't gotten around to getting the patches yet" attitude. It sets a really bad example.


For the others on the thread:
The one on Vanguard matches the government spec; it includes the placements for hook and loop attachments.

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Brit_in_CAP
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 02:15:53 PM »

Gov’t issue foliage-green fleeces are available on eBay (new and used) and they already have the three pieces of green Velcro on them.

Used ones in good condition are available for $18 and up. New ones are $32 - $49.

This right here ^

Got mine on Ebay for like $15 or 18. Worth it!
+1, fits well, looks good.
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BraveRifles19D
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« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 02:33:22 PM »

Can you wear the green one with the polo and gray pants, or does it have to be the black one?

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Eclipse
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« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2018, 03:01:29 PM »

Black.
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hamburgee
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« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2018, 03:02:23 PM »

Can you wear the green one with the polo and gray pants, or does it have to be the black one?

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It should be the black fleece, since the sage green fleece reasonably shouldn't be considered a "civilian" outergarment. It, however, doesn't have to be the exact black fleece that Vanguard sells:
Quote from: CAPM 39-1
5.2.2.9. Outergarments. Appropriate civilian outergarments are authorized as well as the
black leather jacket, light blue windbreaker, blue flight jacket, black fleece and the USAF-style cardigan
sweater.
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Picy3
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« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2018, 12:24:14 AM »

More often than not, I see cadets who keep a blank patch on it, or none at all, where insignia would go. This is technically out of uniform, as your insignia must be visible on all cadet uniforms and in the appropriate place.

If/when you get the fleece, wear it only with the appropriate accouterments---all of them, as required---and don't go around with the "Oh, yeah, I just haven't gotten around to getting the patches yet" attitude. It sets a really bad example.


For the others on the thread:
The one on Vanguard matches the government spec; it includes the placements for hook and loop attachments.



On another note, I just received mine but the Square Black tab (or whatever it is called; to put my rank on) is on backorder. I see what you mean here on wearing all or nothing, so what would you guys say to do in this situation? I have the nametapes just not the Black square. Should I wear it just with the intention of "its on order still" or go without it until it eventually arrives.
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BraveRifles19D
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« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2018, 12:49:12 AM »

More often than not, I see cadets who keep a blank patch on it, or none at all, where insignia would go. This is technically out of uniform, as your insignia must be visible on all cadet uniforms and in the appropriate place.

If/when you get the fleece, wear it only with the appropriate accouterments---all of them, as required---and don't go around with the "Oh, yeah, I just haven't gotten around to getting the patches yet" attitude. It sets a really bad example.


For the others on the thread:
The one on Vanguard matches the government spec; it includes the placements for hook and loop attachments.



On another note, I just received mine but the Square Black tab (or whatever it is called; to put my rank on) is on backorder. I see what you mean here on wearing all or nothing, so what would you guys say to do in this situation? I have the nametapes just not the Black square. Should I wear it just with the intention of "its on order still" or go without it until it eventually arrives.
If they don't have, nothing you can do about it. Just wear the name and CAP tapes until you get it. And BTW, it's navy blue. Also, depending if your rank insignia is big enough, you can get a c/2ndLt square and put your insignia over the dot.

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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2018, 03:45:06 PM »

More often than not, I see cadets who keep a blank patch on it, or none at all, where insignia would go. This is technically out of uniform, as your insignia must be visible on all cadet uniforms and in the appropriate place.

If/when you get the fleece, wear it only with the appropriate accouterments---all of them, as required---and don't go around with the "Oh, yeah, I just haven't gotten around to getting the patches yet" attitude. It sets a really bad example.


For the others on the thread:
The one on Vanguard matches the government spec; it includes the placements for hook and loop attachments.



On another note, I just received mine but the Square Black tab (or whatever it is called; to put my rank on) is on backorder. I see what you mean here on wearing all or nothing, so what would you guys say to do in this situation? I have the nametapes just not the Black square. Should I wear it just with the intention of "its on order still" or go without it until it eventually arrives.

If they don't have, nothing you can do about it. Just wear the name and CAP tapes until you get it. And BTW, it's navy blue. Also, depending if your rank insignia is big enough, you can get a c/2ndLt square and put your insignia over the dot.


Would that same consideration apply to wearing ABUs without ranks sewn on or a flight cap without insignia?

I'm not so sure that not having it excuses the uniform requirements. If you purchase an optional wear item that, if worn, has mandatory accouterments, you need to purchase everything that goes with it.

There is something that can be done about it: "Hey, don't wear it until you have the full uniform."

I'm one to give a week or two pass on something like that. Get the insignia. If you don't have the insignia after a reasonable couple of weeks, take it off until you wear it properly. Because at that point, it's becoming laziness. If there's an outstanding exceptional issue, such as "I just don't have the money," come talk to me.
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NIN
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« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2018, 04:36:48 PM »

I, for one, get it. I didn't even have nametags yet at my first encampment. (I was Cadet Green, for that big blank green spot over my right pocket)  I had gotten a full set of fatigues but that was it. Insignia didn't move quite as fast then,and I had to make due with a branch tape from the squadron supply box.  I had two cutouts and a flight cap device. That was it. No nameplate, yet, either.

Somehow, I survived my first encampment with 3/4 of my insignia.

I get "the stuff is on the way from Vanguard."  But you're right: that only lasts a couple weeks.
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francisderosa16
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« Reply #21 on: December 13, 2018, 01:45:55 AM »

I asked the same question..about the ABU fleece.. Here is my answers [along with other questions]:


http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=23068.msg413916#msg413916
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Stonewall
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« Reply #22 on: December 13, 2018, 07:57:20 PM »

For reference, I have seen Air Force enlisted/NCO/officers wearing issued fleeces with ABU/OCPs all the time and missing some or all insgnia. In fact, I saw an Airman (not sure what rank) with only a USAF tape on her fleece today, and Tuesday I saw a Capt (rank on ABU cap) with name tapes but no Velcro rank.

And I can’t tell you how many people mess up which side the name/USAF tape goes on.

Is there an excuse? Sure. Is it a good excuse? Meh, probably not. 

Perfect world, we’d like to have everything we are supposed to have.  But Vanguard charges A LOT for Velcro name tapes and a square piece of material to pin rank rank onto, which also costs money. And then there’s shipping costs.

Just a quick check from my phone, its roughly $15 to buy the insignia for a fleece, not including shipping.
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Slim
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« Reply #23 on: December 13, 2018, 11:06:29 PM »

Is there an excuse? Sure. Is it a good excuse? Meh, probably not. 

Perfect world, we’d like to have everything we are supposed to have.  But Vanguard charges A LOT for Velcro name tapes and a square piece of material to pin rank rank onto, which also costs money. And then there’s shipping costs.

Just a quick check from my phone, its roughly $15 to buy the insignia for a fleece, not including shipping.

In a perfect world, we'd have a supply room we could send our troops to that would (should?) have what our cadets need in stock, and they'd be able to go hit the embroidery shop in the PX/BX, or right outside the gate, and get the tapes they need made in a day or two, or while they wait.

But, ours isn't a perfect world, and even I had to twist the rules about mixing and matching for a few weeks by wearing the old UMB insignia (tapes too) on my fleece while I waited for whomever at Vanguard to glue (yes, glue) a Lt Col rank to a square of velcro and mail it to me.  No idea why they couldn't have taken an extra couple minutes and done that at the same time they were gluing my name tape to it's velcro strip.

While I agree that the rules are the rules, the world has yet to stop spinning because we looked the other way for a week or two while someone waits for our friendly sole-source supplier to get them what they need.
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Slim
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« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2018, 12:59:15 PM »

Just a quick check from my phone, its roughly $15 to buy the insignia for a fleece, not including shipping.

When one of my LTs gets promoted, and they buy insignia to replace on their uniforms (2 sets of bars) I always take the 4th insignia and make them a fleece rank.  Takes 10 minutes and a square of velcro.  And mine are stitched.
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Jester
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« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2018, 01:19:43 PM »

Just a quick check from my phone, its roughly $15 to buy the insignia for a fleece, not including shipping.

When one of my LTs gets promoted, and they buy insignia to replace on their uniforms (2 sets of bars) I always take the 4th insignia and make them a fleece rank.  Takes 10 minutes and a square of velcro.  And mine are stitched.

What kind of needle do you use for sewing fabric to Velcro?  I assume a regular old-school Kenmore machine is strong enough for it. I use a denim needle for putting name tapes on heavyweight ABUs.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2018, 05:29:48 AM »

Use a sharp needle, not a ball point. The denim needle should work.
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Dave Bowles
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arajca
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« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2018, 04:04:21 PM »

Also, don't use the adhesive backed velcro. It gums up the needles.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2018, 04:28:39 PM »

I've never had any issues piecing the plastic, my issues are usually with the bobbin side of the thread
bunching up on the hooks.

+1 on not using adhesive velcro.

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NIN
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« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2018, 04:29:08 PM »

What kind of needle do you use for sewing fabric to Velcro?  I assume a regular old-school Kenmore machine is strong enough for it. I use a denim needle for putting name tapes on heavyweight ABUs.

You know, I don't even know. The general needles that you get in JoAnn's or Walmart are all I use.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They seem to work fine thru doubled-up nametag & temperate-weight ABU. I even use them to sew down the pockets (shhhh), so  when you're going thru the sides of the pocket flap, thats 2 layers of fabric on the flap, at least, plus 2 layers of fabric of the pocket.  Nary a problem.
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Jim Lahaie
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« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2019, 02:43:11 PM »

Whenever I need new name tapes, I just cut them to pocket size and spray-adhesive them onto my blouse/field jacket. It saves so much time, and not having to spend $15 a pop on getting them sewed makes it that much easier.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2019, 02:51:29 PM »

If it works for you, great, but this is not good general advice.

"5.1.1.3.1. Nametapes will be in white thread on ultramarine blue cloth. The
nametapes will be sewn
immediately above the upper BDU coat pockets. Fold tapes underneath to match
pocket width. The “Civil Air Patrol” nametape will be worn above the upper BDU pocket on the
wearer’s left. The last name nametape will be worn above the upper BDU pocket on the wearer’s right. "

Also, how often do you need new tapes that it's onerous to do them properly?

Hand sewing them isn't optimal, but it's also not that hard, and a skill that would serve you for a lifetime.
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NIN
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« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2019, 03:51:49 PM »

Gaaaah. Don't do that!
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baronet68
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« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2019, 05:01:35 PM »

Whenever I need new name tapes, I just cut them to pocket size and spray-adhesive them onto my blouse/field jacket. It saves so much time, and not having to spend $15 a pop on getting them sewed makes it that much easier.

I've had great success using Elmer's WHITE glue (not carpenter glue... note my emphasis on WHITE glue) to adhere tapes to a uniform.  Once it dries, you can then sew the tape into place (using hand or machine) without the tape/insignia moving.  Because the WHITE Elmer's glue is water soluble, it will wash out when the uniform is laundered, leaving no permanent damage.
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chuckmilam
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« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2019, 05:07:35 PM »

There is something that can be done about it: "Hey, don't wear it until you have the full uniform."

This is my policy.  I give a temporary pass on uniform of the day requirements like so: "If you do not yet have a complete uniform, appropriate civilian attire may be worn."
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GroundHawg
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« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2019, 05:41:22 PM »

I just spotted a full rack of foliage fleeces at Wright-Patterson AFB and none of them had Velcro.  I asked the MCSS lady about it and she said people are sewing name/AF tapes and drank directly to the jacket.  I have yet to see anyone so this, but then again, I’m the only one I’ve seen since 1 Oct with my tapes, badges, and rank sewn directly to my OCPs in lieu of the ever annoying hook and loop.

I took mine to Tulay's and she did an excellent job on mine. She did my OCP's, my BBDU's, and my black CAP fleece. Sucks that she is out of business now and I have to pay for lesser quality at a higher price elsewhere.
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CAP9907
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« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2019, 12:57:25 AM »

There is something that can be done about it: "Hey, don't wear it until you have the full uniform."

This is my policy.  I give a temporary pass on uniform of the day requirements like so: "If you do not yet have a complete uniform, appropriate civilian attire may be worn."

Absolutely this ^^   Either wear it per the Manual or do not wear it at all.
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VT Wing PAO
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« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2019, 01:20:01 PM »

You will need to get the dark blue rank tab and rank insignia and pin the rank thru the jacket and the tab the rest of the jacket will need name taps and will only be worn in cold weather (53 Degrees Fenhight)

 - C/Msgt Howel
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2019, 01:56:51 PM »

You will need to get the dark blue rank tab and rank insignia and pin the rank thru the jacket and the tab the rest of the jacket will need name taps and will only be worn in cold weather (53 Degrees Fenhight)

 - C/Msgt Howel

Cite that please.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2019, 04:28:29 PM »

What's a Fenhight?

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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2019, 08:14:59 PM »

Just below the knee
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
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shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,008
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2019, 11:06:29 PM »

Just below the knee

Snicker, giggle, giggle.  :D
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Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
NIN
Administrator

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Unit: of issue

« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2019, 12:32:40 AM »

Just below the knee

Snicker, giggle, giggle.  :D
My work here is done
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2019 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,677
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2019, 01:21:17 AM »

As is this thread.

BTW, the word 'degree' does not appear anywhere in CAPM 39-1.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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