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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Small Drones Map 17,000 Acres of Wildfire Damage
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Author Topic: Small Drones Map 17,000 Acres of Wildfire Damage  (Read 840 times)
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,323

« on: December 02, 2018, 02:02:35 AM »

These people are fully ramped up, ready to respond and are already impressing everyone.

I don't see how CAP can catch up. This type of technology evolves daily. This will not be a case where Hdqs can come up with training plans and SQTR sheets over  months or years that are outdated before they are rolled out.

These types of situations are fluid. Methodologies have to be flexible, with new ideas being rolled out immediately.

Very good reading:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/camp-fire-17000-acres-mapped-romeo-durscher/?fbclid=IwAR1bLsrReY1wuiMJkCu_WptmcMCIRuGMhc2xPzAiVLItPacwo6jnEQ7UkdU
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,323

« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2018, 02:04:39 AM »

Nice 360 views:

https://viewer.hangar.com/360?productId=Nr7N5dBj
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,354

« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2018, 03:15:14 AM »

A number of Air Guard units are now equipped with MQ-1/MQ-9 UAV's which have far superior capabilities then anything we will ever have.
In California the 163rd Attack Wing's MQ-9's provided 24/7 coverage of both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey Fire at the same time.
This was a State mission requested by the California Office of Emergency Services, the folks CAWG work for.

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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,323

« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2018, 12:40:17 PM »

A number of Air Guard units are now equipped with MQ-1/MQ-9 UAV's which have far superior capabilities then anything we will ever have.
In California the 163rd Attack Wing's MQ-9's provided 24/7 coverage of both the Camp Fire and the Woolsey Fire at the same time.
This was a State mission requested by the California Office of Emergency Services, the folks CAWG work for.

Yep.  CAP will need to continue looking for different methodologies and areas where we can help, if we are to continue as an organization in the decades to come. Things in the real world, are changing at a rapid pace.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,347

« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2018, 01:44:45 PM »

I was thinking last night that this situation was / is akin to what happened with computers.

For decades they required room-scale hardware, and were the purview of a small group
of technical people who kept a closed circle, and in far too many cases made access a big pain.

During that time, you never had situations where an employee said "my mainframe at home is
faster then the one this company has". Centralized / structured access was the only game.

(PR1ME anyone?)

This led to users seeking out any means possible to bypass or avoid the entrenched infrastructure,
and was a driving factor in the adoption of the Personal Computer.
Suddenly it was not uncommon for users, even less technical middle-management types, to
whine about "how much faster my PC is then your system" (etc.).

The result was, and still is to some extent, chaos.  Data went from the protected environs of
the Computer Room (with its raised floor and Halon system), to sitting on desks and disks
all over the place - usually OK, but often, lost, corrupted, misused, etc., etc.

It's only after the decentralizaion stabilized that users have come to understand that while their
user-side might be better locally controlled, their data is safer and better-handled back in the server
room, being watched by someone 24x7, and actually backed up once in a while.

Within that environment companies without a vested interest in status quo adapted and adopted and
took advantage of the unstable tides.  There was a lot of collateral damage, and many of the big-boys
in the sector saw their influence either eroded, or were pushed aside. (Are you reading this on a VAXStation?)

Right now the UAVs, and flying in general, are at the "aviation is a hassle and everyone is looking for anything that
rests control from the entrenched infrastructure" level.

Consumer-accessible UAVs are plentiful and generally as capable as the more expensive commercial variants
(i.e. "The drone I have at home takes better pictures then your agency's..."), and there are a myriad of
companies working to eliminate the pilot / commercial carriers from a large sector of the market
(including passenger and cargo travel).

The result will be the same chaos, entrenched entities will be marginalized, or pushed aside completely,
and nimble organizations will adapt and adopt their way into the front of the line.

CAP is many things, but "nimble" it has never been.

It should also be noted that CAP isn't really even an "entrenched player" now, nor has it really ever been.
Despite press releases and marketing about major incidents, CAP is on few, if any "first call lists", and
generally gets access to mission work because of the happenstance of the specific people involved.

This is due in large part to its lack of doctrine, and failure to foster relationships locally with the SAR
community as a whole.  These are issues that have been raised for decades here and elsewhere, to
very little notice by anyone with influence.

STEM kits and a couple of classes at NESA are not going to fix this issue, nor are a handful of sensor
balls or GIIEP kits which basically hearken back to ARCHER and the inability for the average member to
ever get near it (i.e. the server room mentality).

CAP's one singular advantage in this situation, the thing it could still leverage given the Command imperative,
is that while it may not be seated at the table with the various agencies involved, it does see these people
at the dinner parties and all-hands-meetings.

CAP needs to start knocking doors and getting on the "first call lists" with 3- and 4-letter agencies so
that the local relationships become less important.  That includes a press to the state EMAs that control
much of the disaster response access (and that ain't an easy task).

Absent that, UAVs are going to fly right over CAP's head, taking the photo mission with it.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,323

« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2018, 05:15:11 PM »

Excellent post Eclipse!


... CAP is on few, if any "first call lists",


To play Devil's Advocate here ... is there a reluctance to develop too many relationships, due to a fear of then not being able to respond often enough? 

How many times can a new customer hear this, before they give up on us?

"No one at the Squadron can get off work today, check back with us tomorrow."

It probably doesn't happen too often now, simply because we do NOT have very many relationships.

Its a funny situation, when we volunteers, try to go up against first responders who are paid, on the clock, ready to ride.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2018, 10:08:59 PM by etodd » Logged
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 739

« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2018, 01:00:30 AM »

To play Devil's Advocate here ... is there a reluctance to develop too many relationships, due to a fear of then not being able to respond often enough?

We'd have more people available for missions if we had more real-world missions for people to respond to and feel as though they are using their training. We'd have more real-world missions if we had enough people to support them.

That's a tough cycle to break...
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,293
Unit: Worry

« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2018, 01:41:07 AM »

These people are fully ramped up, ready to respond and are already impressing everyone.

I don't see how CAP can catch up. This type of technology evolves daily. This will not be a case where Hdqs can come up with training plans and SQTR sheets over  months or years that are outdated before they are rolled out.


I see how they could: Start letting squadrons develop programs at the lowest level and send feedback upstairs. Set up grant initiatives and get out of the way of squadrons that set up development/fundraising programs to get said initiatives off the ground. Work with squadrons to enhance their liaison staff to better interface with localities that might benefit the most from this.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,323

« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2018, 10:31:29 AM »

These people are fully ramped up, ready to respond and are already impressing everyone.

I don't see how CAP can catch up. This type of technology evolves daily. This will not be a case where Hdqs can come up with training plans and SQTR sheets over  months or years that are outdated before they are rolled out.


I see how they could: Start letting squadrons develop programs at the lowest level and send feedback upstairs. Set up grant initiatives and get out of the way of squadrons that set up development/fundraising programs to get said initiatives off the ground. Work with squadrons to enhance their liaison staff to better interface with localities that might benefit the most from this.

"localities that might benefit " .... yes, that could work in some areas where the existing First Responders don't already have drones. So it would be spotty.  A squadron that is interested could survey their area and see what is already there, and if needed, jump into it.

The first thing that pops up in my mind is, if everyone is doing their own thing and experimenting with what works in their own areas,  will the local operations be covered by CAP insurance? Without a CAP wide system and methodologies in place, how will insurance be possible?

Hey, I'm all for jumping in feet first ... but it just hit me that maybe that is a big reason why Hdqs is still scratching its head?
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,293
Unit: Worry

« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2018, 01:58:53 PM »

These people are fully ramped up, ready to respond and are already impressing everyone.

I don't see how CAP can catch up. This type of technology evolves daily. This will not be a case where Hdqs can come up with training plans and SQTR sheets over  months or years that are outdated before they are rolled out.


I see how they could: Start letting squadrons develop programs at the lowest level and send feedback upstairs. Set up grant initiatives and get out of the way of squadrons that set up development/fundraising programs to get said initiatives off the ground. Work with squadrons to enhance their liaison staff to better interface with localities that might benefit the most from this.

"localities that might benefit " .... yes, that could work in some areas where the existing First Responders don't already have drones. So it would be spotty.  A squadron that is interested could survey their area and see what is already there, and if needed, jump into it.

The first thing that pops up in my mind is, if everyone is doing their own thing and experimenting with what works in their own areas,  will the local operations be covered by CAP insurance? Without a CAP wide system and methodologies in place, how will insurance be possible?

Hey, I'm all for jumping in feet first ... but it just hit me that maybe that is a big reason why Hdqs is still scratching its head?

Our GT task book was last updated when?

The whole reason everyone else is launching these programs is because CAP well and truly dropped the ball on creating and keeping up to date a consistent mission base, ground team, and air task book system.

Had such an update protocol been in place, we wouldn't be here now.
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Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,293
Unit: Worry

« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2018, 02:01:41 PM »

Thus the need now exists for subsidiarity. Start at the lowest level, document, send up the chain, compare, update, send down the chain.

CAP needs to embrace agility more than ever before.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,347

« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2018, 02:46:48 PM »

Had such an update protocol been in place, we wouldn't be here now.

Elaborate.

CAP can't consistently and reliably staff or execute the curriculum and protocols it has, and really hasn't been
able to for at least a decade, let alone updates.

It needs updating, but that has nothing to do with the local relationships, national relationships,
or getting mission work, unless the argument is that the neglect of the curriculum is an indication
of the organization's actual interest in it (which could certainly be a valid point).

In the spaces where pure vigilante volunteers are needed, there's plenty to go around.

In the spaces where professionals are needed, CAP falls short.

The space in-between is where it could capitalize, but its lack of flexibility, manpower,
and command imperative keeps it from excelling there.
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Small Drones Map 17,000 Acres of Wildfire Damage
 


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