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Holding Pattern
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« on: November 15, 2018, 01:09:13 AM »

When you are putting together your ORM for GTM training, how are you working knife safety into your risk management continuum for seniors and cadets?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: November 15, 2018, 02:52:39 AM »

Knives are not a significant part of GTM, beyond needing them in gear, and are not a significant source of risk.

It has literally never come up in conversation in 19 years, other then the occasional Cadet Daniel Boone who
is advised to leave the Ka-Bar at home.
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etodd
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« Reply #2 on: November 15, 2018, 02:55:52 AM »

Everyone should be skilled at the knife game.

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lordmonar
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« Reply #3 on: November 15, 2018, 06:11:31 AM »

When you are putting together your ORM for GTM training, how are you working knife safety into your risk management continuum for seniors and cadets?
Not an ORM factor.   Use the guidance from the GTM training guide for GT gear and move on. 
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
jeders
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Posts: 2,166

« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2018, 03:29:37 PM »

When you are putting together your ORM for GTM training, how are you working knife safety into your risk management continuum for seniors and cadets?
Not an ORM factor.   Use the guidance from the GTM training guide for GT gear and move on.

Remember, knives are sharp and pointy and people (especially young minimally trained cadets) are stupid. Hence the following mishap statement from SIRS:

Quote
WHILE PARTICIPATING IN GROUND TEAM TRAINING AT THEIR SQUADRON, A CADET WAS HOLDING A COLD BOTTLE OF WATER TO RELIEVE A BURN THEY HAD SUSTAINED. ANOTHER CADET ACCIDENTALLY CUT THE INJURED CADETS FINGER WITH A MULIT-TOOL KNIFE WHILE TRYING TO CUT THE WATER BOTTLE IN THE INJURED CADETS HAND. NEITHER INJURY WAS REPORTED TO THE SAFETY OFFICER OR ANY OTHER SENIOR MEMBER AT THE TIME OF OCCURRENCE A SENIOR MEMBER WAS PRESENT WHEN THE INJURIES WERE SUSTAINED, BUT DID NOT OBSERVE WHEN THEY OCCURRED. THE INJURIES WERE REPORTED BY THE CADETS INVOLVED WHEN THEIR EFFORTS TO CONTROL THE BLEEDING WERE UNSUCCESSFUL. FIRST AID WAS IMMEDIATELY PERFORMED BY SAFETY OFFICER WHO WAS ALSO THE SQUADRONS HEALTH SERVICES OFFICER. THE SQUADRON COMMANDER WAS NOTIFIED AND WAS PRESENT WHILE FIRST AID WAS BEING RENDERED. THE INJURED CADETS GRANDMOTHER WAS NOTIFIED DUE TO THE CADETS PARENTS BEING UNREACHABLE. PARENTS WERE MADE AWARE AS SOON AS THEY WERE AVAILABLE.

You don't necessarily have to make knife safety a part of your ORM every time, but situational awareness and not horsing around should be in your safety brief.

As for the above statement, I still haven't found anything stating how the cadet's hand got burned, but this statement has provided safety education topics for our squadron for about 3 months now.
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2018, 04:12:49 PM »

I respectfully DISAGREE with suggestions that knives are "not an ORM issue" and that knives pose no significant hazard which require specific training or other mitigations.

A chief pilot I used to work with described a couple of instances from SERE school where fatigued persons, or persons with very cold hands experienced serious injuries from unintended slips that required prompt medical treatment.  FWIW, I carry scars from similar mishaps.  Knives of any size or edge most certainly do cause injuries, and therefore must be included in the ORM matrix for all activities where they may be used by either SM or Cadets.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2018, 04:42:22 PM »

We had a cadet a few years ago who brought a hatchet to an FTX  ::)  We learned about it when he was chucking it at a tree to see if it would stick.  ::)  :clap: ::)

Took it away. Did a brief explanation to everyone about it not necessarily being "wrong" to have this type of gear in the field, but that the conduct in which it's being used is an issue. It became a new planning item for us in addressing potential tools/weapons brought to future activities, and we introduced contraband checks starting the following year (i.e., "show us what you brought").

The second year, another cadet brought a hatchet, which we found in contraband, because dad (who was prior service) packed his kit....now we're able to add in the chat of "You're a cadet, not dad; you should be packing your gear based on the packing list we provide since you're responsible for what goes in it." We actually ended up needing it when some Boy Scouts stole our firewood (ironic on multiple counts, eh).

These are things you don't necessarily need to run a formal ORM over, so much as it is a "What do you do once discovered" topic. You can include it, sure. But it really should be dependent on the nature of the activity warranting or anticipating the use of knives. If it's an activity that knives aren't used, I don't think you need to be listing off the cause/effect of knife-related injuries. If you start listing off knives for activities that don't anticipate the use of knives, then why don't we start listing off all kinds of objects we don't anticipate using? You could go for miles with that one...

My ORM for operating an aircraft isn't going to include the risk of me using a stapler in the planning office.
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Gunsotsu
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Posts: 115

« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2018, 07:10:59 PM »

We had a cadet a few years ago who brought a hatchet to an FTX  ::)  We learned about it when he was chucking it at a tree to see if it would stick.  ::)  :clap: ::)

Took it away. Did a brief explanation to everyone about it not necessarily being "wrong" to have this type of gear in the field, but that the conduct in which it's being used is an issue.

No, it's absolutely wrong and has been since at least 24MAY04 per the G&UDF Task Guide.

Quote
Task O-0001 Prepare Ground Team Individual Equipment

e. Restrictions on Knives: You may only wear a sheath knife if authorized by your team leader. Sheath
knives cannot have a blade longer than 6” or a total length of greater than 11”. The sheath must adequately
secure the knife and protect the wearer from the blade. If authorized, sheath knives will be worn only on the
pistol belt or carried inside the pack. The following knife types are not authorized: boot knives, butterfly
knives, switch blades, double edged knives, “Rambo” style survival knives, or knives with retracting sheaths.
Machetes or hatchets can only be carried by senior members when needed for that specific sortie. No knives
may be visible when the member is performing crash sight surveillance duty.

Good on you for instituting contraband checks, I've been doing that for 20+ years now. One of my favorite, and somehow keeps coming around, instances of "you really thought that was acceptable," are cadets (and sadly a few SMs) that bring small crossbow bolts in their gear to use as tent stakes. I've come across this at least a dozen times over the years.

Crossbow bolts.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2018, 07:29:36 PM »

I respectfully DISAGREE with suggestions that knives are "not an ORM issue" and that knives pose no significant hazard which require specific training or other mitigations.

A chief pilot I used to work with described a couple of instances from SERE school where fatigued persons, or persons with very cold hands experienced serious injuries from unintended slips that required prompt medical treatment.  FWIW, I carry scars from similar mishaps.  Knives of any size or edge most certainly do cause injuries, and therefore must be included in the ORM matrix for all activities where they may be used by either SM or Cadets.

CAP is not SERE school, and if the ORM for cold weather is being followed, no one should >EVER< be that cold in a CAP context.

This sort of thing falls into the general supervision ORM.  If you tried to list every bad thing that could happen with
every piece of gear CAP members carry, the ORM sheets would be 12 pages long and you'd do nothing at a SAREx
but brief ORM.

You manage the exceptions (like those mentioned here) and move on.

Strange that orgs like the BSA that do a lot more fieldcraft then CAP manage to operate without all of this
background noise - they have SOPs and regs about things like this, including certifications for their use,
the proper tone is set and it's not usually spoken of until there is an issue.

CAP members are adolescents and adults, if they can't be trusted with a pocket knife, they don't belong out there to start with.
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2018, 05:41:06 AM »


CAP is not SERE school, and if the ORM for cold weather is being followed, no one should >EVER< be that cold in a CAP context.

Operative word 'should' is always a red flag.  To consider only what 'should' (i.e. be expected with a high degree of certainty) occur strikes me as a recipe for bad outcomes.  Effective ORM must consider a more realistic spectrum of hazards, risks, and outcomes than merely what 'should' occur.  Why do we consider, then practice engine out EPs?  After all, with our large investments in maintenance what's the point?  You mean to say that weather is always 100% as forecast, or that unexpected exigencies never occur when CAP takes to the field? 

Quote
CAP members are adolescents and adults, if they can't be trusted with a pocket knife, they don't belong out there to start with.

How does this relate to ORM?  Of course CAP members can be 'trusted'.  However, considering risks, hazards, and outcomes in an ORM may suggest some additional training might be advisable so members are equipped with appropriate skills.  Of course, if we just paperwhip the ORM then our analysis might not exceed checking a box. 
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Spaceman3750
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« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2018, 09:17:31 AM »

If I felt it was necessary to include knives during a deliberate ORM:

Risk: Injury during use of knives.
Likelihood: Low
Impact: Moderate
Risk Severity: Low
Risk control: Supervision
Symptoms of (in)effectiveness: (Presence)Lack of knife injuries.

Most local training I run has no need for any use of knives, so it’s not something I normally worry about too much. As long as supervisors are effectively monitoring their people, most of the time knife issues will be prevented by detecting that a knife is being used when it is unnecessary.

If knives were a major issue we’d be bandaging 5 people every time a group opened their MREs. So far I haven’t seen that happen.

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« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 09:25:59 AM by Spaceman3750 » Report to moderator   Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Spaceman3750
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Posts: 2,677

« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2018, 09:32:20 AM »

When you are putting together your ORM for GTM training, how are you working knife safety into your risk management continuum for seniors and cadets?
Not an ORM factor.   Use the guidance from the GTM training guide for GT gear and move on.

Remember, knives are sharp and pointy and people (especially young minimally trained cadets) are stupid. Hence the following mishap statement from SIRS:

Quote
WHILE PARTICIPATING IN GROUND TEAM TRAINING AT THEIR SQUADRON, A CADET WAS HOLDING A COLD BOTTLE OF WATER TO RELIEVE A BURN THEY HAD SUSTAINED. ANOTHER CADET ACCIDENTALLY CUT THE INJURED CADETS FINGER WITH A MULIT-TOOL KNIFE WHILE TRYING TO CUT THE WATER BOTTLE IN THE INJURED CADETS HAND. NEITHER INJURY WAS REPORTED TO THE SAFETY OFFICER OR ANY OTHER SENIOR MEMBER AT THE TIME OF OCCURRENCE A SENIOR MEMBER WAS PRESENT WHEN THE INJURIES WERE SUSTAINED, BUT DID NOT OBSERVE WHEN THEY OCCURRED. THE INJURIES WERE REPORTED BY THE CADETS INVOLVED WHEN THEIR EFFORTS TO CONTROL THE BLEEDING WERE UNSUCCESSFUL. FIRST AID WAS IMMEDIATELY PERFORMED BY SAFETY OFFICER WHO WAS ALSO THE SQUADRONS HEALTH SERVICES OFFICER. THE SQUADRON COMMANDER WAS NOTIFIED AND WAS PRESENT WHILE FIRST AID WAS BEING RENDERED. THE INJURED CADETS GRANDMOTHER WAS NOTIFIED DUE TO THE CADETS PARENTS BEING UNREACHABLE. PARENTS WERE MADE AWARE AS SOON AS THEY WERE AVAILABLE.

You don't necessarily have to make knife safety a part of your ORM every time, but situational awareness and not horsing around should be in your safety brief.

As for the above statement, I still haven't found anything stating how the cadet's hand got burned, but this statement has provided safety education topics for our squadron for about 3 months now.

This mishap sounds less like ineffectiveness in a safety briefing or ORM and more like ineffectiveness of supervision and potentially poor selection of ground team member candidates.

I’m a huge fan of the idea that nobody cares more about your safety than you do (“OSHA? Ocean.”) I even emphasized it in a safety briefing just this weekend. But that doesn’t remove the need for supervision to be effective. A core tenant of my day job is that prevention will always fail eventually, so we need to be in a position to detect when that happens and respond to the situation, ideally before damage is done. It’s equally important in safety.

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« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 09:55:44 AM by Spaceman3750 » Report to moderator   Logged
The moment any commander or staff member considers themselves a gatekeeper, instead of a facilitator, they have failed at their job.
I can't fix all of CAP's problems, but I can lead from the bottom by building my squadron as a center of excellence to serve as an example of what every unit can be.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,650

« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2018, 03:26:08 PM »


CAP is not SERE school, and if the ORM for cold weather is being followed, no one should >EVER< be that cold in a CAP context.

Operative word 'should' is always a red flag.  To consider only what 'should' (i.e. be expected with a high degree of certainty) occur strikes me as a recipe for bad outcomes.  Effective ORM must consider a more realistic spectrum of hazards, risks, and outcomes than merely what 'should' occur.  Why do we consider, then practice engine out EPs?  After all, with our large investments in maintenance what's the point?  You mean to say that weather is always 100% as forecast, or that unexpected exigencies never occur when CAP takes to the field? 

First, equating an engine failure to a knife injury is a false equivalency.

Next, considering what "should occur" is literally ORM.   

ORM is absolutely >not< "Let's micromanage every possible branch outcome of an action and then develop a detailed process
to insure that doesn't happen."  That's a job for the Federation Department of Temporal Investigations.

ORM is intended to look at the totality of the situation and address the serious and likely risks to both success and safety.

In this example you don't get to a situation in which cadetsicles' fingers are incapable of utilizing a knife unless a lot of other things
have already gone sideways, and if you get there, you've got a lot more serious issues then a knife safety briefing.

This portends a situation where the supervision enters into negligence, and ORM briefings are likely irrelevant.

CAP members are adolescents and adults, if they can't be trusted with a pocket knife, they don't belong out there to start with.

How does this relate to ORM?  Of course CAP members can be 'trusted'.  However, considering risks, hazards, and outcomes in an ORM may suggest some additional training might be advisable so members are equipped with appropriate skills.  Of course, if we just paperwhip the ORM then our analysis might not exceed checking a box.

Rules on the use of knives are very clear, and violations of those rules, allowed to come to the fruition of the
example provided, as well as the the risk asserted, which is likely enough to require additional training and briefings,
point to a lack of supervision and adherence to other regulations which would negate the efficacy of the briefings.

In other words...

One more ticket-punch, eye-roll-inducing briefing that wastes time for the majority of the membership who
are doing things properly, while providing no assistance to the members who aren't anyway.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2018, 03:49:17 PM by Eclipse » Report to moderator   Logged


TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,689

« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2018, 03:51:19 PM »

We had a cadet a few years ago who brought a hatchet to an FTX  ::)  We learned about it when he was chucking it at a tree to see if it would stick.  ::)  :clap: ::)

Took it away. Did a brief explanation to everyone about it not necessarily being "wrong" to have this type of gear in the field, but that the conduct in which it's being used is an issue.

No, it's absolutely wrong and has been since at least 24MAY04 per the G&UDF Task Guide.

Quote
Task O-0001 Prepare Ground Team Individual Equipment

e. Restrictions on Knives: You may only wear a sheath knife if authorized by your team leader. Sheath
knives cannot have a blade longer than 6” or a total length of greater than 11”. The sheath must adequately
secure the knife and protect the wearer from the blade. If authorized, sheath knives will be worn only on the
pistol belt or carried inside the pack. The following knife types are not authorized: boot knives, butterfly
knives, switch blades, double edged knives, “Rambo” style survival knives, or knives with retracting sheaths.
Machetes or hatchets can only be carried by senior members when needed for that specific sortie. No knives
may be visible when the member is performing crash sight surveillance duty.

You're citing Ground Team training tasks. That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm also referring to any general field operating conditions, not just CAP training. It's not wrong to go camping with a hatchet. It's indeed wrong/improper to be chucking it around the campsite.

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