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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: New DJI Mavic 2 Designed for Search and Rescue
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Author Topic: New DJI Mavic 2 Designed for Search and Rescue  (Read 2457 times)
xray328
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« on: October 29, 2018, 10:37:09 AM »

Interesting...

https://www.engadget.com/2018/10/29/dji-mavic-2-enterprise-drone-search-rescue/

I heard a rumor we can't use it though, something about foreign parts and USAF funding?  Last I heard the $1999 is about half what we've spent on the drones being used at NESA.

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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2018, 12:07:50 PM »

Last year there was a lot of FUD that the Army had concerns about the high-level
of Chinesium in DJI products that might make them susceptible to hacking, follow-up
studies should that to be BS.

In a CAP context, a unit with the cash would be fine buying one, but its usefulness
in SAR is debatable since the US still requires line-of-sight to the operator. Until that's
lifted, not much advantage over the aircraft CAP has and the Mark-I eyeball.

It might be able to get up and over areas hard to access due to canopy, etc., and
I've heard some compelling arguments about standing on a hill with binoculars to
maintain the L-O-S, but there are less expensive devices with the same capabilities
available at Walmart.
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xray328
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« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2018, 12:42:24 PM »

Glad to hear the concern over the foreign parts is over.

I'm honestly not sure on the line of sight issues, but I'd think there has to be an FAA waiver available.   Certainly with commercial applications on the horizon (Amazon) there's ways around that.  The advantage here is cost, the ability to fly in conditions that would ground the CAP aircraft, and speed of deployment.  CAP aircraft also can't talk to the folks on the ground in need of rescue or drop emergency supplies.   CAP has already seen the need for and advantages of these, we're just falling behind the technology as usual.

Regarding the cheapo consumer drones, there's no comparison. From the article...

"The newbie can also be fitted with modular accessories that further boost its search and rescue capabilities. Add-ons include a spotlight with a brightness of 2,400 lumens, a loudspeaker for voice recording playback (not party jams), and a flashing strobe beacon for night-time or low-light missions (or to alert nearby aircraft of its presence).

An additional highlight is DJI's onboard AirSense tech: an integrated receiver that alerts drone pilots of ADS-B signals from nearby aircraft via the DJI Pilot mobile app in real-time. The company describes it as an "extra layer of protection" for operators who fly in congested airspace or near complicated operations, such as wildfire suppression, disaster recovery and infrastructure monitoring. And for those navigating extreme weather conditions, there's the new self-heating battery for sub-zero temperatures. Ultimately, this is a drone for scalability and rapid deployment."

I've flown both, and DJI is leaps ahead of anything available at your local toy store.

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Fubar
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« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2018, 01:09:23 PM »

Strapping DF equipment (or having it integrated) is useful, even with low flight times and maintaining LOS.

Integrating ADSB into the drone is pretty smart for collision avoidance.
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etodd
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« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2018, 02:26:27 PM »

All the above is true.  But will vary widely by locale.

A drone can be useful if the location has already been narrowed down to a few small square miles, or less.  A plane that left one airport and did not arrive at the destination 200 miles away, will still need the Cessnas to perform long range route searches.  Until we get very large drones with capabilities of a Reaper, that can go the distance.

Small drones are perfect for that lost hiker that might still be within 5 miles of their last known location.

But for the latter ^^^  in my area, the local police and Sherrif not only have helicopters, but also have drones. We would be amongst the last to be called, as in 2-3 days later when they have given up.

With the true "first responders" already going drone, we are not needed very often.  I'm all for us looking into drone usage, but we need to be realistic in our expectations of when we would actually be called and which types of services, the first responders do not have.
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PHall
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« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2018, 03:07:11 PM »

CAP aircraft also can't talk to the folks on the ground in need of rescue or drop emergency supplies.

Actually some CAP aircraft CAN talk to people on the ground. They have loudspeakers. And very few people can legally drop just about anything from an aircraft. About the only folks who can legally drop emergency supplies from an aircraft is the US Coast Guard and the US Military.
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xray328
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« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2018, 03:24:00 PM »

CAP aircraft also can't talk to the folks on the ground in need of rescue or drop emergency supplies.

Actually some CAP aircraft CAN talk to people on the ground. They have loudspeakers. And very few people can legally drop just about anything from an aircraft. About the only folks who can legally drop emergency supplies from an aircraft is the US Coast Guard and the US Military.


But can the folks in the ground talk back? Iíd imagine they could drop these a few feet above them and have a clear two way conversation.  I donít see a drop off of first aid and water too far behind.

Can CAP aircraft do the same? Sure, but at what cost/risk? And how longs it gonna take?


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etodd
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« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2018, 03:29:48 PM »



  I donít see a drop off of first aid and water too far behind.


If you are seeing them with a DJI drone, then you can hike to them in mere minutes. Or less.  LOL
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xray328
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« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2018, 03:35:33 PM »

Perhaps, the linked product has a video transmission range of 4 miles.  Depending on terrain or weather conditions that could be 2-3 hours plus on foot.  Survivability is all about getting there quickly (as we all know).


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Eclipse
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« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2018, 03:40:25 PM »

A Part 107 waiver can be issued on an as-needed basis for "Special Government Interests" which include SAR,
but of course you have to already be a Part 107 pilot.

It's a functionally meaningless situation as CAP does not have the rated personnel at a scale that makes a difference (today).

Part 107 training and licensing should be the kind of thing CAP and the USAF are funding heavily today to
try and stay inside the curve (the front edge is already down the road).

Meanwhile I know of more then a few CAP people seriously discussing lighting up
501c(3)s focused on this exact thing.  There's already any number of them in my state who own helos, Cessnas,
and related assets and get all sorts of work while CAP is benched.

Just in the last couple weeks there was a public call for volunteers to help find a missing child in a wooded area - perfect for this kind of thing.
Literally had hundreds or responses and CAP was not involved.
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xray328
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« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2018, 03:46:59 PM »

Part 107 certification isnít that difficult to obtain either.  Might be a good way to engage the cadets as well since theyíre largely excluded from the aircrew side. I really think this is the future of our mission, we either embrace it or become obsolete.


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EMT-83
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« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2018, 04:16:27 PM »

Getting a Thermal Imaging Camera up in the air quickly is a game-changer on missing person searches.

You can keep the spotlights and loudspeakers as far as Iím concerned.
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xray328
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« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2018, 04:23:43 PM »

https://www.dji.com/mobile/zenmuse-xt


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etodd
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« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2018, 05:27:29 PM »



Just in the last couple weeks there was a public call for volunteers to help find a missing child in a wooded area - perfect for this kind of thing.
Literally had hundreds or responses and CAP was not involved.

A good example of how this will be a more Wing or even Squadron based thing, more than national.  As I said above, our local police and Sherriff both have helicopters, and the two police ones have full FLIR capability to see people at night.  CAP is not needed in our area for these types of searches, whether we are capable or not. We look to other missions in our Squadron.

Other Wings and Squadrons may be in locations where the local first responders do not have much capability. Perfect place for those Wings to jump on this.

If the Wings and/or Squadrons where their help is needed are "saddled" by having to wait for a National program ... then may as well give it up. We will always be way behind the curve.

How much leeway do Wings, and even Squadrons have ... to ramp up gear and training autonomously for "local needs"?

IMHO ... that is a huge part of the puzzle.

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Fubar
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« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2018, 05:27:41 PM »

Literally had hundreds or responses and CAP was not involved.

Not invited, specifically not invited, or we elected not to participate?
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sardak
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« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2018, 05:34:21 PM »

Between the county SAR team I'm on and the sheriff's office, we have seven UAVs, from Mavic Pro to M600. We have thermal cameras with which we've seen people, rocks, cars, trees, cattle, deer, elk and buffalo at night.

Quote
Part 107 certification isnít that difficult to obtain either.  Might be a good way to engage the cadets as well since theyíre largely excluded from the aircrew side. I really think this is the future of our mission, we either embrace it or become obsolete.
Have to be at least 16 to get a 107 license, which is required to fly SAR missions. Not a bad idea to train the cadets on the material needed for the 107 since most of the material applies to flying in general and not just unmanned aircraft.

Quote
How much leeway do Wings, and even Squadrons have ... to ramp up gear and training autonomously for "local needs"?
As much leeway as we have to support other local missions.


Mike
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etodd
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« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2018, 05:43:49 PM »


Quote
How much leeway do Wings, and even Squadrons have ... to ramp up gear and training autonomously for "local needs"?

As much leeway as we have to support other local missions.


Well I'm not sure how much that can be.  So if its a lot .... then it seems some of these squadrons seeing local needs they could fill ... should stop waiting on a National program, and get the ball rolling locally.  If they don't already have a Part 107 pilot in the Squadron, you can bet there are plenty in the town that would jump at the chance to be used "officially" and would join up.

Recruiting op here.  :)
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Eclipse
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« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2018, 05:46:05 PM »

Literally had hundreds or responses and CAP was not involved.

Not invited, specifically not invited, or we elected not to participate?

Cap likely not even aware since the local relationships don't exist..
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Eclipse
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« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2018, 05:47:37 PM »

If they don't already have a Part 107 pilot in the Squadron, you can bet there are plenty in the town that would jump at the chance to be used "officially" and would join up.

Doubtful.  If they were that interested, they'd join already.  CAP is hardly a secret in the ham and RC sector.

Part 107 licenses aren't much harder to get then any other CAP ES rating, but they do require the UAVs,
and taking the time to both practice and then seek out a tester.

This is the kind of thing where CAP should be spending its STEM money and marketing time. 
It would make CAP a resilient pillar of the community.
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xray328
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« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2018, 05:54:16 PM »

Seems like a missed opportunity.  Youíd hope that CAP would be the go to for this type of work, yet most donít even know we exist.   And yes you do need to be 16 for the 107 certification but we train cadets at NESA for DAART at 15, so itís doable.  Itíd  be great to see NESA start up a 107 certification course.   They already have the UAV course, seems like a natural fit. Maybe Iím putting the cart in front of the horse there though.


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sardak
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« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2018, 06:03:32 PM »

Quote
Part 107 licenses aren't much harder to get then any other CAP ES rating, but they do require the UAVs, and taking the time to both practice and then seek out a tester.
You can take, and pass, the 107 test without ever having seen a UAV, let alone fly one. Seeking out a tester can be a problem because you take the test at an FAA approved test facility, which aren't at every supermarket or airport. There are only 12 in our state, located at nine airports.

Mike
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Eclipse
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« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2018, 06:09:35 PM »

Fair enough (though you should live in a place the FSM intended for people), but
it doesn't do much good to have a 107 and not be able to hover.
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xray328
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« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2018, 06:19:34 PM »

Honestly, you donít need to know how to hover. Iíd be fine handing the controls to a 10 year old, these are to the point they fly, hover and land by themselves.   Even the WalMart ones you mentioned earlier have auto hover, GPS return to home and auto land ...$149.

http://us.yuneec.com/breeze-overview


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Ohioguard
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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2018, 06:28:09 PM »

National HQ just had a training program for C-sUAS at Camp Atterbury 5 - 22 October and have training scheduled at Edwards AFB 4 - 9 Nov.  This training is for a new AF mission using the C-sUAS.

It is coming to be. 
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xray328
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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2018, 08:40:33 PM »

National HQ just had a training program for C-sUAS at Camp Atterbury 5 - 22 October and have training scheduled at Edwards AFB 4 - 9 Nov.  This training is for a new AF mission using the C-sUAS.

It is coming to be.
What were the qualifications to attend?  Invite only?


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etodd
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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2018, 09:28:45 PM »

As a current FAA pilot certificate holder ... I did not have to go to a CATS testing facility and pay the $150.  Its a very simple test online for existing pilots that should be passable by any pilot, with just a little study of the Part 107 regs beforehand.

CAP already has quite a few Part 107 members. CAP did a survey a few months ago , but I haven't seen the results released.

As a professional aerial photographer, I have a couple years experience flying my P4P, and could jump into any search now quite comfortably, especially since I'm already a Mission Pilot and know CAP search procedures and protocols.

I'd bet there are many others just as qualified and even more so, in CAP. 

But alas ... until Hdqs develops a SQTR sheet for it, which will be outdated the very day its released, to "qualify the qualified" .... if I want to work this way, I'll have to just wear street clothes and volunteer my services with other agencies.  Funny, but also sad.

We shoot ourselves in the foot with so many layers of bureaucracy .
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 09:38:31 PM by etodd » Logged
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Eclipse
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« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2018, 09:33:16 PM »

Two things - what on earth would CAP be doing with Counter UAV missions? 

Second, if it's like GF and the escorts missions, they looks great on the annual report and are pretty
much meaningless to the average member.
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etodd
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« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2018, 09:36:01 PM »

I just belly laughed out loud thinking about having to enter a new drone "sortie" into WMIRS every 25 minutes or so when I "stop the motors" in order to change batteries.

Surely ... ahem .... it will not happen that way. ;)

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etodd
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« Reply #28 on: October 29, 2018, 09:40:42 PM »


...they looks great on the annual report and are pretty
much meaningless to the average member.

Could say the same about the cell phone team, only 4 or 5 folks, yet are not most "saves" credited to them now?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #29 on: October 29, 2018, 09:42:34 PM »


...they looks great on the annual report and are pretty
much meaningless to the average member.

Could say the same about the cell phone team, only 4 or 5 folks, yet are not most "saves" credited to them now?

I would say the same thing - looks great on a T-Shirt, isn't coming to a theater near you.
The saves credited to them are the saves they are involved in, which is not all CAP missions, or even most.
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etodd
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« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2018, 09:45:56 PM »


...they looks great on the annual report and are pretty
much meaningless to the average member.

Could say the same about the cell phone team, only 4 or 5 folks, yet are not most "saves" credited to them now?

I would say the same thing - looks great on a T-Shirt, isn't coming to a theater near you.
The saves credited to them are the saves they are involved in, which is not all CAP missions, or even most.

Hmmm.  I was wondering if they were full CAP ... and just had a quasi relationship somehow? They get publicized by Hdqs as if they are all CAP, all the time.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2018, 09:52:09 PM »

I think you're asking a different question.

The Cell phone team is CAP members, many of whom pioneered the techniques used.
They get credit for the missions that they participate in just like everyone else.

Not all CAP missions involve the team.
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etodd
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« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2018, 10:16:35 PM »

I think you're asking a different question.

The Cell phone team is CAP members, many of whom pioneered the techniques used.
They get credit for the missions that they participate in just like everyone else.

Not all CAP missions involve the team.

Ah.  Gotcha.  Well then that goes back to my question. Out of all the CAP "Saves" in FY 2017, what percentage were credited to the cell phone team? I thought they had exceeded all others(?)
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etodd
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« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2018, 10:17:52 PM »

Found it ... 95%  WOW!

CAP Sets Modern Saves Record -- 155 -- for Fiscal 2018; 95% Credited to Cell Phone Team

https://www.cap.news/cap-sets-modern-saves-record----155----for-fiscal-2018-95-credited-to-cell-phone-team/

Those airplanes are looking expensive now. Ouch!

"Technology has changed how we do business,Ē said John Desmarais, CAP's director of operations. ďWeíre saving more lives and doing more in a cost-effective manner

Yea buddy. We better keep up the good work with AP for FEMA  and more, if we want to keep these airplanes.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2018, 10:47:29 PM »

I can't find the story, but didn't the team get credit for something that had a whole bunch of
saves in one mission?
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etodd
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« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2018, 11:00:49 PM »

I can't find the story, but didn't the team get credit for something that had a whole bunch of
saves in one mission?

Maybe so ... but probably not enough to change that 95% figure by too much(?)

Its the wave. Eight people sitting in front of computers, maybe even while still wearing their morning slippers and drinking that first cup of coffee ... providing data in one hour many times, that results in finds shortly thereafter. The rest of us can't get our uniforms on and get anywhere near the airport in that amount of time.

Yes, lets cherish our FEMA Airborne Photography, and see how we can make it even better. Our planes depend on it.
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sardak
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« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2018, 12:01:10 AM »

Quote
I can't find the story, but didn't the team get credit for something that had a whole bunch of saves in one mission?
Yes, they helped locate a passenger ship in January near the Bahamas and were credited with 69 saves.

Mike
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etodd
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« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2018, 12:12:54 AM »

Quote
I can't find the story, but didn't the team get credit for something that had a whole bunch of saves in one mission?
Yes, they helped locate a passenger ship in January near the Bahamas and were credited with 69 saves.

Mike

So lets do the math.  There were 155 saves and cell team credited with 147.

So lets take the whole passenger ship out of the equation. Total saves = 86

Cell team is credited with 78 of them for 91% of the total.

Yep .... SAR is now an incredibly small part of CAP plane loads of MPs, MOs, and MSs.

Hello FEMA, our old friend. How can we keep you satisfied?
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sardak
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« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2018, 01:01:21 AM »

Here's another way to look at it. In calendar year 2017, our wing had 16 SAR missions. Cell phone forensics assisted on 3 of them, all missing aircraft.  During the same time, the sheriffs and National Park Service in our state used CAP cell phone forensics on 38 SAR missions without involving the wing. All those numbers are very small given that there were over 1,700 reported SAR incidents in the state overall.

And get off the FEMA flying.  As I replied to one of your FEMA posts in another thread, in 2017 FEMA flying hours = SAR flying hours, and each was only 2.6% of total AFAM flying hours.

Mike
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etodd
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« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2018, 02:46:05 PM »

Here's another way to look at it. In calendar year 2017, our wing had 16 SAR missions. Cell phone forensics assisted on 3 of them, all missing aircraft.  During the same time, the sheriffs and National Park Service in our state used CAP cell phone forensics on 38 SAR missions without involving the wing. All those numbers are very small given that there were over 1,700 reported SAR incidents in the state overall.

And get off the FEMA flying.  As I replied to one of your FEMA posts in another thread, in 2017 FEMA flying hours = SAR flying hours, and each was only 2.6% of total AFAM flying hours.

Mike

Yes, yes. Of Course.  But like it or not the cell team and the radar team, have fine tuned their methods and these numbers will continually favor those teams. At some point we really will have to start justifying the airplanes in many different ways. Yes, we are doing many things now, but airplane SAR will continue to decline, as we get to the point drones are more and more viable for those missions the cell team can't find a signal path.

I'm just trying to realistically look toward the future. I'm REALLY hoping we can find more and more uses for these planes, so we can still keep using them for Cadets. We have two Cadets working toward their PPL in the squadron's plane currently and more who are interested. Saturday we'll be flying O'Rides, one of my favorite things in CAP.

So whatever it takes to keep us in airplanes. Whether its FEMA, or helping the Army train Controllers, or escorting Reapers, or any other jobs we can find.  When it comes to the airplanes ... those truly are our future.  Cell/RADAR teams and drones will eventually do all SAR.
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Fubar
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« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2018, 02:59:59 PM »

And get off the FEMA flying.  As I replied to one of your FEMA posts in another thread, in 2017 FEMA flying hours = SAR flying hours, and each was only 2.6% of total AFAM flying hours.

My WMIRS-fu is poor, I just tried to look this up and couldn't see how to do it. How does our AFAM flying hours break down?
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etodd
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« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2018, 03:18:10 PM »

And get off the FEMA flying.  As I replied to one of your FEMA posts in another thread, in 2017 FEMA flying hours = SAR flying hours, and each was only 2.6% of total AFAM flying hours.

My WMIRS-fu is poor, I just tried to look this up and couldn't see how to do it. How does our AFAM flying hours break down?

Here is the doc he referenced:

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/DO01__Whats_New_in_Operations_69BB9E928BED7.pdf
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Gunsotsu
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« Reply #42 on: October 30, 2018, 03:23:16 PM »

Just another classic example of CAP being behind the times.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #43 on: October 30, 2018, 03:27:26 PM »

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/DO01__Whats_New_in_Operations_69BB9E928BED7.pdf

"parachute operations".
Good.  Lord.
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PHall
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« Reply #44 on: October 30, 2018, 03:33:10 PM »

I think the days of an 550 aircraft fleet are rapidly coming to an end. It's just a matter of time before the ax swings.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #45 on: October 30, 2018, 03:43:21 PM »

Yes, yes. Of Course.  But like it or not the cell team and the radar team, have fine tuned their methods and these numbers will continually favor those teams. At some point we really will have to start justifying the airplanes in many different ways. Yes, we are doing many things now, but airplane SAR will continue to decline, as we get to the point drones are more and more viable for those missions the cell team can't find a signal path.

Airplane SAR will, hopefully, decline, however that's not going to leave "other things" for manned aircraft to do.
You don't need to train pilots for planes without seats.

I'm just trying to realistically look toward the future. I'm REALLY hoping we can find more and more uses for these planes, so we can still keep using them for Cadets. We have two Cadets working toward their PPL in the squadron's plane currently and more who are interested. Saturday we'll be flying O'Rides, one of my favorite things in CAP.

What are the cadets going to do with them? Would you have said the same thing about buggy whips?

There is a current pilot shortage that will last a generation, and taper off around the time autonomous flight is generally
accepted for even commercial flying. This shortage is / was a result of the pendulum swing of the way pilots were treated
after deregulation making it a poor choice as a career for many on the low end of the sector.  That situation has largely normalized now.

With air travel at historic highs, being a pilot today is fine, but long-term? There's probably a brighter future in being a flight attendant then in an airline pilot.
If you have a kid in college or flight training now, it'll probably fine.
But a toddler today with pictures of airplanes on his walls with parents hoping he'll someday "Fly the Friendly Skies?
No.

In the near term there will be money and rhetoric about increased pilot training for CAP cadets, but mostly for ROTC.
I don't frankly think that is going to last very long because the logistics of ROTC flying are not the same as CAP cadet flying,
but hours are hours. 

It's probably at least as likely that ROTC flight instructors will simply start having access to CAP aircraft directly. (Say 5 years?)
Being more directly connected to the military, if there is a legit push to train ROTC cadets as pilots, it's easier just to
ramp USAF CFIs into the seats as trying to herd CAP into recruiting enough CFIs with flexible time to work for free.
It's already an issue today, let alone having any sort of professional military initiative that increases the number of hours.

CAP has been flying the same basic missions with the same basic aircraft for its entire history - the technology
(sorta) changes, but at the end of the day, it's looking for stuff, listening for stuff, taking pictures of stuff, and moving stuff.
There isn't likely to be an edition moment of a completely new mission that comes out of thin air to use powered aircraft.

To the original tangent, "Saves" have never been a good indicator of CAP operations or capabilities.  They are easy to
articulate to a disinterested legislator or the general public, but really don't mean anything statistically.  If FDs and LEAs
based their successes purely on the people they "saved", they'd be out of business as well.

The last FY is a perfect example, absent the anomaly of a mass "save" that isn't likely replicated, CAPs number would actually
be down significantly.

It's great that a group of members has found a way to leverage access and expertise in an interesting way to the public benefit,
but it's not a unique capability, doesn't use any proprietary technology, and could be easily replicated by agency or team with
the same access to the cell system. It also doesn't mean much to the average member other then a "feel good" in the same vein
as the Olympic videos, and articles about observing space launches.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 03:50:13 PM by Eclipse » Logged


sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,214

« Reply #46 on: October 30, 2018, 04:07:00 PM »

"parachute operations".
Good.  Lord.
How else are we going to insert our counter-sUAS squads?

Mike
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #47 on: October 30, 2018, 04:22:16 PM »

"parachute operations".
Good.  Lord.
How else are we going to insert our counter-sUAS squads?

Mike

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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #48 on: October 30, 2018, 06:49:42 PM »

It's probably at least as likely that ROTC flight instructors will simply start having access to CAP aircraft directly. (Say 5 years?)

We're already providing funding for ROTC cadets to fly our planes to further their pilot training, having their CFIs use our planes might be closer than you think.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #49 on: October 30, 2018, 07:02:51 PM »

It's probably at least as likely that ROTC flight instructors will simply start having access to CAP aircraft directly. (Say 5 years?)

We're already providing funding for ROTC cadets to fly our planes to further their pilot training, having their CFIs use our planes might be closer than you think.

I'm referring the 2.some million in the FY19 budget for CAP and ROTC training, over and above their
normal budget.  Looks great on paper, CAP doesn't have the bodies to execute it in most wings, and / or
it'll further stress maintenance and have the planes gone even more.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #50 on: October 30, 2018, 07:07:44 PM »

Here is the doc he referenced:

Ah thank you. So for FY18, our flying hours were:

AFJROTC7873%
Air Defense1,1234%
Other / HLS7,06426%
Cadet Orientation10,01137%
AFROTC5082%
Surrogate RPA1,1704%
Range Support3521%
Route Survey4512%
SAR1,4035%
Counter Drug3,02811%
DSCA /DR9113%
Total:26,808

Numbers are rounded. Took out maintenance and training (7,123 and 21,578 respectively) since these aren't "missions" that we can expand (they go away when the missions go away).

Good thing the Air Force likes us flying cadets. That seems to be the mission to be most worried about. A close second is keeping the homeland security folks happy (although the "other" here makes me wonder if the drone escorts ended up in here).

Given the minimal time spent flying SAR and DR, I'd wager we'll keep those missions since nobody else will find them worth the trouble to assume.

I don't work in aviation, is the ratio of our "customer" flying of 26,808 hours to our non-customer flying of 28,701 hours normal?
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #51 on: October 30, 2018, 07:12:37 PM »

I'm referring the 2.some million in the FY19 budget for CAP and ROTC training, over and above their normal budget.  Looks great on paper, CAP doesn't have the bodies to execute it in most wings, and / or it'll further stress maintenance and have the planes gone even more.

A lot about the program to allow ROTC cadets fly our planes hasn't been worked out. They apparently have to join CAP, but then what? Do they get duty assignments? Do they attend squadron meetings? Can they fly HP glass aircraft?

We've already had ROTC units tell their kids to call us for free flying, we had to ask NHQ what it was about since none of us had heard about it. We were told it was covered at the national convention, apparently if you didn't attend you didn't get to know about it. The ROTC kids had a nice letter from their HQ detailing their part of the program (which wasn't much, just come to us for free flying).
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #52 on: October 30, 2018, 07:23:43 PM »

A lot about the program to allow ROTC cadets fly our planes hasn't been worked out.

That's my point $2.5MM and a press release with no plan.
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xray328
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 613

« Reply #53 on: October 30, 2018, 07:25:02 PM »

How did we not secure some of this for our own cadets?


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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #54 on: October 30, 2018, 07:55:34 PM »

How did we not secure some of this for our own cadets?

There's supposed to be money in there for CAP, JROTC and ROTC.

"Details in late October"...so...

https://www.cap.news/caps-desmarais-addresses-orientation-flights-youth-aviation-initiatives-on-faa-panel/

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/cadetinvest/youth-aviation-initiative


Take-Off Program - TOP Cadet (Second Cadet Year)
Merit-based program supporting cadets at week-long powered and glider flight academies, possibly leading at a solo flight
Lift Program (Second Year Cadet)
Need-based supporting cadets at week-long career explorations (NCSAs)

Cadet Wings Program (Third Cadet Year & Beyond)
Merit-based program for cadets pursuing a private pilot certificate; ultra-competitive...jewel of cadet life

"Details in late October"...so...

I suppose its not fair to judge something on a tag line, but "ultra competitive" generally means
"a couple few" and most cadets won't even bother, however since CAP doesn't rate their cadets on years,
one could conjecture this is actually the ROTC plan which probably just has them attending summer
flight academies.

No idea why they'd have to join, but that's also a nice little mess to deal with from a structure standpoint.
So does a third year ROTC cadet come in as a slick-sleeve CAP cadet?
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Ohioguard
Member

Posts: 51

« Reply #55 on: October 30, 2018, 11:22:18 PM »

If you really want to get involved:

Job Title:  Senior Program Manager, Small Unmanned Aerial System (sUAS)
Directorate:  Operations
Salary:  $70,095
Location:  Maxwell AFB AL
Reports To:  John Desmarais
Closing Date:  7 November 2018     

Job description on the home page with application procedures.     
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #56 on: October 30, 2018, 11:30:05 PM »

If you really want to get involved:

Job Title:  Senior Program Manager, Small Unmanned Aerial System (sUAS)
Directorate:  Operations
Salary:  $70,095
Location:  Maxwell AFB AL
Reports To:  John Desmarais
Closing Date:  7 November 2018     

Job description on the home page with application procedures.   

Thank you for pointing out one of the legitimate issues with NHQ jobs - they're at NHQ...in Alabama.
That severally and artificially limits the pool of applicants to...Alabama.

Few people with the skills and experience that a national organisation like CAP would like to hire are
going to relocate to Alabama for $70k and no relocation expenses, etc.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,307

« Reply #57 on: October 31, 2018, 04:09:24 PM »


Few people with the skills and experience that a national organisation like CAP would like to hire are
going to relocate to Alabama for $70k and no relocation expenses, etc.

I think you have seen the movie Deliverance a few too many times.  :P

You do realize that Alabama, Huntsville in particular, is known as the Silicon Valley of the east? We have more phDs and engineers here than anywhere east of the Mississippi river. From space industries and so much more in North Alabama, to jets being built in the south, Alabama is rocking it.

CAP doesn't have to look far for some incredible talent. Feel free to stay where you are. ;)
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #58 on: October 31, 2018, 04:34:37 PM »

You do realize that Alabama, Huntsville in particular, is known as the Silicon Valley of the east?

Keep telling yourself that.

Trying to sell yourself as that to attract talent doesn't make you that.  It's marketing BS.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,307

« Reply #59 on: October 31, 2018, 04:40:47 PM »

You do realize that Alabama, Huntsville in particular, is known as the Silicon Valley of the east?

Keep telling yourself that.

Trying to sell yourself as that to attract talent doesn't make you that.  It's marketing BS.


You should come visit.  Its not marketing.  Its outsiders seeing whats happening:

Engineers per 1,000 employees: 60.771

https://www.forbes.com/pictures/fjle45leeg/no-1-huntsville-alabama-2/#4d2c0e0a39cc

https://www.wsj.com/articles/forget-silicon-valley-the-future-of-tech-is-in-these-three-cities-1529426153

https://www.cbsnews.com/media/americas-top-10-tech-cities-arent-on-the-coasts/2/

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/299173

https://www.inc.com/david-brown/aols-steve-case-says-san-francisco-is-out-heres-where-startups-should-look-to-next.html
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Vegas1972
Member

Posts: 65
Unit: PCR-NV

« Reply #60 on: October 31, 2018, 04:49:34 PM »

You do realize that Alabama, Huntsville in particular, is known as the Silicon Valley of the east?

Keep telling yourself that.

Trying to sell yourself as that to attract talent doesn't make you that.  It's marketing BS.


You should come visit.  Its not marketing.  Its outsiders seeing whats happening:

Engineers per 1,000 employees: 60.771

https://www.forbes.com/pictures/fjle45leeg/no-1-huntsville-alabama-2/#4d2c0e0a39cc

https://www.wsj.com/articles/forget-silicon-valley-the-future-of-tech-is-in-these-three-cities-1529426153

https://www.cbsnews.com/media/americas-top-10-tech-cities-arent-on-the-coasts/2/

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/299173

https://www.inc.com/david-brown/aols-steve-case-says-san-francisco-is-out-heres-where-startups-should-look-to-next.html

I thought the same thing until I visited a couple of years ago.   I was thinking to myself..."we're going to Alabama???".   I was surprised (shocked) at how tech-heavy the Huntsville area was.   
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"Life is tough, but it's tougher if you're stupid.", Sgt. John M. Stryker.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,258

« Reply #61 on: October 31, 2018, 04:50:55 PM »

Clearly people are clamoring to live in Alabama.

Oh, wait...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population_growth_rate



I guess 40th is good.  Looks like a Crimson ripple to me, but everything is relative (yeah, there's an Alabama joke there but I'm not going for it).

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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,470
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #62 on: October 31, 2018, 05:10:43 PM »

It's a three hour commute from Huntsville to Montgomery. How do you handle that?
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Dave Bowles
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C/WO, CAP, Ret
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,307

« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2018, 05:12:50 PM »

Clearly people are clamoring to live in Alabama.

I guess 40th is good.  Looks like a Crimson ripple to me, but everything is relative (yeah, there's an Alabama joke there but I'm not going for it).


LOLOLOL   Population isn't growing much. You sidetrack.  We like it that way.  Sure as heck don't want to be another CA or NY.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,307

« Reply #64 on: October 31, 2018, 05:16:22 PM »


I thought the same thing until I visited a couple of years ago.   I was thinking to myself..."we're going to Alabama???".   I was surprised (shocked) at how tech-heavy the Huntsville area was.

Its unbelievable whats happening. But its not mainstream knowledge. The big players in high tech industries are VERY aware, and thats all that matters. Its all good. :)
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xray328
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 613

« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2018, 11:53:43 AM »

http://news.mit.edu/2018/fleets-drones-help-searches-lost-hikers-1102


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