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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Restructure CAP ranks: change "SM without grade" members into "Senior Airmen"
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Author Topic: Restructure CAP ranks: change "SM without grade" members into "Senior Airmen"  (Read 9544 times)
Color Guard Rifleman
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« Reply #60 on: November 09, 2018, 08:00:11 PM »


Why not call them what they are, Senior Recruit or Senior Trainee; after all, both can be defined as; an apprentice, a learner, a novice or a beginner.  Isn't that what exactly how we view and new personnel.

As far a how to address them, it’s still Mr./Ms. (last name).

Recruit wouldn't work due to CAP being volunteer service, not a part of the armed forces. How about "Senior Associate"? Most anything but "recruit" would work.


Recruit is a Navy/Coast Guard thing.

Exactly my point. we aren't even close to being related to the Navy or Coast Guard. (Other than asked to help in the GLR region with SAR)
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C/SMSgt Murphy Killeen, CAP
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #61 on: November 09, 2018, 11:11:50 PM »

Referring to "senior associates" would cause confusion with the member category "associate member."

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Eclipse
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« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2018, 01:16:05 AM »

"Recruit" has a specific meaning in those contexts as well, as in "not a full member",
which isn't the case with SM(WOG).  Once they are done with L1 they can do anything
except some of the Distance Learning classes without any grade ever.
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FW
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« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2018, 02:24:18 AM »

Can't we just discuss uniforms?? LOL ;D
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Gunsotsu
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« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2018, 04:09:34 AM »

Short of adopting a structure similar to the CGAux, this thread is pointless.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2018, 04:25:40 AM »

Short of adopting a structure similar to the CGAux, this thread is pointless.
Lighten up, Francis.

Actually, this has been an interesting discussion, albeit without any solution. "Senior member" has been a problem for a long time, yet none of the great minds in our organization have managed to come up with an acceptable alternative.

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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2018, 05:12:32 AM »

Well you could always call them Officer Candidate
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Eclipse
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« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2018, 05:39:23 AM »

Well you could always call them Officer Candidate

But they aren't necessarily.
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Lord of the North
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« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2018, 07:03:56 AM »

Until the new members choses to go to the NCO grade structure, he is an Officer Candidate (either "commissioned or Non-Commissioned).
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2018, 08:36:34 AM »

We have Cadet Basic why not Senior Basic.

Besides not being accurate (we do not have “Cadet Basic”), that still doesn’t address the problem of using the word “Senior” in the rank title. “Senior” could mean somebody of high rank (which it does not, in this case), or it could mean somebody who is older, especially leading to denote somebody of retirement age, both of which may be true in specific cases but which are likely to be otherwise.


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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2018, 08:42:00 AM »


Why not call them what they are, Senior Recruit or Senior Trainee; after all, both can be defined as; an apprentice, a learner, a novice or a beginner.  Isn't that what exactly how we view and new personnel.

As far a how to address them, it’s still Mr./Ms. (last name).

But, can’t you see how “Senior Recruit” is an oxymoron? How does somebody with less than six months in become a “Senior” anything? Yes, we use it to distinguish between cadet members and non-cadet members, but it is still meaningless and confusing to outsiders (especially when approaching them for recruiting purposes) and to outside agencies.   


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CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Hawk200
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« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2018, 01:11:59 PM »

But, can’t you see how “Senior Recruit” is an oxymoron? How does somebody with less than six months in become a “Senior” anything? Yes, we use it to distinguish between cadet members and non-cadet members, but it is still meaningless and confusing to outsiders (especially when approaching them for recruiting purposes) and to outside agencies. 

Emphasis added. I think this is part of the problem when it comes to outside view. "Senior Member" doesn't mean anything to anyone outside.

We have Cadet Basic why not Senior Basic.

Besides not being accurate (we do not have “Cadet Basic”), that still doesn’t address the problem of using the word “Senior” in the rank title. “Senior” could mean somebody of high rank (which it does not, in this case), or it could mean somebody who is older, especially leading to denote somebody of retirement age, both of which may be true in specific cases but which are likely to be otherwise.

This is a salient point. Any cadet that joins is an "Airman Basic" the day they get their ID card. "Airman Basic" is a known rank in the Air Force.

We don't have anything similar for senior members. In an organization with a paramilitary rank structure, the concept just doesn't compute to people with even vague knowledge of the military. "How can you not have any rank?" or "What rank is that?" are probably the most common thoughts if they don't outright ask the questions.

Most people that join would probably like to be able to say that they're something (anything) that non members would recognize in some way. Until they make lieutenant, they don't have a designation that is recognizable to anyone outside. They probably don't have the background to really explain why either. The non member is probably a little lost as to what the person's purpose or place is, and could stifle any further interest in the program, too. When it comes to recruiting, not being able to clarify the organization really hurts that endeavor. (Then again, what else do we do that doesn't make sense to those outside, and hurts us in that regard as well?)

This is probably not an issue for those becoming NCOs. If asked as far as their rank goes, the answer is probably something along the lines of "Oh, I'm going to be a Sergeant, just getting some training out of the way first." They have the kind of background where they can be succinct in their explanation, and most of the people asking will understand.

Maybe the answer is to not focus on the new individual being a "Senior Member," but focus more on the "You're going to be a lieutenant." More of our own cultural adapting than creating something new.That would probably satisfy the outsiders, and wouldn't blunt their potential interest in the program.
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etodd
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« Reply #72 on: November 10, 2018, 06:01:54 PM »

Whats wrong with Senior Member? I was going to be quite happy being one, and still call myself one sometimes. I never asked to be a 2nd Lt, but my Commander announced I was one at a meeting one day, after I hit the six month mark. Being a MP, meant I had checked off all the boxes for 2nd Lt, but I didn't ask for the "promotion". I didn't argue at the meeting that night and let it slide. But I still just think of myself as a Senior Member Volunteer.
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PHall
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« Reply #73 on: November 10, 2018, 07:01:09 PM »

Whats wrong with Senior Member? I was going to be quite happy being one, and still call myself one sometimes. I never asked to be a 2nd Lt, but my Commander announced I was one at a meeting one day, after I hit the six month mark. Being a MP, meant I had checked off all the boxes for 2nd Lt, but I didn't ask for the "promotion". I didn't argue at the meeting that night and let it slide. But I still just think of myself as a Senior Member Volunteer.

You know, you don't have to stay a 2d Lt if you don't want to. You can request a demotion back to Senior Member with no ill effects.
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Gunsotsu
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« Reply #74 on: November 10, 2018, 07:24:59 PM »

Whats wrong with Senior Member? I was going to be quite happy being one, and still call myself one sometimes. I never asked to be a 2nd Lt, but my Commander announced I was one at a meeting one day, after I hit the six month mark. Being a MP, meant I had checked off all the boxes for 2nd Lt, but I didn't ask for the "promotion". I didn't argue at the meeting that night and let it slide. But I still just think of myself as a Senior Member Volunteer.

CAP grade structure for SENIOR MEMBERS (just drop this nonsensical notion that the title for adults in the program needs to change) is meaningless.
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etodd
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« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2018, 07:31:22 PM »

Whats wrong with Senior Member? I was going to be quite happy being one, and still call myself one sometimes. I never asked to be a 2nd Lt, but my Commander announced I was one at a meeting one day, after I hit the six month mark. Being a MP, meant I had checked off all the boxes for 2nd Lt, but I didn't ask for the "promotion". I didn't argue at the meeting that night and let it slide. But I still just think of myself as a Senior Member Volunteer.

You know, you don't have to stay a 2d Lt if you don't want to. You can request a demotion back to Senior Member with no ill effects.

I started to, but then just didn't want to have to explain it to everyone there. Felt it would be better politically, just to let it go.  :)
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Hawk200
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« Reply #76 on: November 10, 2018, 09:20:10 PM »

Whats wrong with Senior Member? I was going to be quite happy being one, and still call myself one sometimes. I never asked to be a 2nd Lt, but my Commander announced I was one at a meeting one day, after I hit the six month mark. Being a MP, meant I had checked off all the boxes for 2nd Lt, but I didn't ask for the "promotion". I didn't argue at the meeting that night and let it slide. But I still just think of myself as a Senior Member Volunteer.

CAP grade structure for SENIOR MEMBERS (just drop this nonsensical notion that the title for adults in the program needs to change) is meaningless.

Gee, uptight much?  ::)
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Fubar
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« Reply #77 on: November 11, 2018, 01:36:56 AM »

How about "probationary member" until a grade is conferred?
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etodd
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« Reply #78 on: November 11, 2018, 02:07:29 AM »

How about "probationary member" until a grade is conferred?

So you could be a 20 year probationary member if you didn't want a grade?  :o I'd rather stick with Senior Member.
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Hawk200
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« Reply #79 on: November 11, 2018, 01:11:21 PM »

How about "probationary member" until a grade is conferred?

So you could be a 20 year probationary member if you didn't want a grade?  :o I'd rather stick with Senior Member.

That throws a monkey wrench into things.  It discounts the use of "candidate," since the individual doesn't have a desire to promote.

Now what?  ;D

Maybe "Poobah" is the way to go.... :D
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Restructure CAP ranks: change "SM without grade" members into "Senior Airmen"
 


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