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i_am_a_politician
Recruit

Posts: 14

« on: October 23, 2018, 03:40:56 PM »

Hi all,

I was recently combing through CAPP 151 again and I noticed that it stated that C/AB - C/SrA would be addressed by Airman by Cadets and can be addressed as "cadet" by a senior member.  However, I have noticed that those grades are called by "Cadet" 99% of the cadets in my wing.

My question is: Do your wings do it differently?  Or are Cadet Airmen generally still called "Cadet" everywhere else by both cadet and seniors?  I personally have no issues with it, but I want to know if this is a "wing" exclusive topic.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2018, 04:13:16 PM by lam_the_lame » Logged

C/2d Lt Politician
MacGruff
Seasoned Member

Posts: 346

« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2018, 03:48:34 PM »

Both forms of address are perfectly respectable and acceptable.

As an old codger, I prefer to use "Cadet Smith" as my eyes are no longer good enough to count the stripes on their lapels quickly enough!   >:D
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2018, 04:03:21 PM »

I find it to be obnoxious when a senior member refers to a cadet solely as "Cadet" and not their grade/name. It was a courtesy I was trained on---rank and name, never rank by itself unless you're referring to an NCO and talking to someone higher up in the chain.

Acceptable: "Cadet Smith"
Acceptable: "Airman Smith"

Not Acceptable: "Cadet"
Not Acceptable: "Airman"

If you don't know their rank, call them "Cadet xxxxx." If you know their rank and not their name, ask: "Excuse me, Airman....what's your name? Airman xxxxx, can you.... (insert rest)." It's not difficult to look at someone's name tape.

Calling someone "Cadet," to me, generally comes off as a scolding tone. If I was ever called by just my rank, I knew I was clearly being addressed by a superior officer, and it generally wasn't good.

Yes, CAPP 151 does say grade or "Cadet" are both appropriate. But it strikes a nerve for me. I won't use "Cadet" without a name accompanying.

I have a real disdain for people who say "L-T." That's a term of endearment with your troops when you've earned it. But I had a butt-chewing by a black oak once for calling a second lieutenant "LT." It stuck with me.
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tkelley004
Recruit

Posts: 36
Unit: PCR-WA-015

« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2018, 04:11:12 PM »

Cadet is an honorable term that means leader in training (what I tell all my new cadets) so being called cadet is not an insult, it what you are from C/AB to C/Col.. Now I also tell seniors in Level one you do get street rep points if you call cadets by what is on the collar too... It is how you take it, if your a cadet and are insulted by being called cadet, that is a you issue....
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Tim Kelley, Lt Col, CAP
Bellingham Composite Squadron
Retired USAF SMSgt
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2018, 04:16:29 PM »

However, I have noticed that those grades are called by "Cadet" 99% of the cadets in my wing.

Sounds about right - cadets change their grade pretty often, using "Cadet" solves the issue,
especially in environments where you don't know them.

I have the same visceral reaction SkyHornet indicates above in regards to telephone Colonels.
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2018, 11:40:19 PM »

I have the same visceral reaction SkyHornet indicates above in regards to telephone Colonels.

That's a new term to me. Help?
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 482
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2018, 11:54:37 PM »

I have the same visceral reaction SkyHornet indicates above in regards to telephone Colonels.

That's a new term to me. Help?

Slang terms for the rank historically used by the U.S. military include "light colonel", "short colonel", "light bird", "half colonel", "bottlecap colonel" (referring to the silver oak leaf insignia), and "telephone colonel" (from self-reference as "colonel" when using a telephone)
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,142
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2018, 04:46:04 AM »

I promoted Lieutenant Colonel at age 29. For quite some time my joke was, I am the more Lieutenant than Colonel Lieutenant Colonel!

As a cadet I never resented being called a cadet and never have shied from using that honorable title with our cadet members.

A Cadet is an officer trainee specifically. To me that connotes that we expect them to behave as officers and gentlemen and that we will treat them as such. Thus it is a term of respect.

Vr
Spam
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2018, 09:17:50 AM »

That's a new term to me. Help?

It's a nomenclature for officers who call up and say their abbreviated rank on the phone, thus suggesting more weight.

For example:
An O-5 calls up a military resort to get his family booked up for a holiday weekend at a discounted rate.
"This is Colonel Smith. I was wondering if I can book on the Weekend Adventure Pass."
"Absolutely. Can I get your pay grade, Sir?"
"O-5."
"Oh, I'm sorry Lieutenant Colonel Smith. But the rate only extends to Colonels and above."

Kind of like naval officers saying "Lieutenant" (suggesting O-3) when they're, in fact, a Lieutenant junior (O-2), or "Commander" (O-5) instead of Lieutenant Commander (O-4).
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Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2018, 06:38:45 PM »

Thanks gentlemen! Always enjoy learning something new....
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SCoontsFan
Recruit

Posts: 38

« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2018, 09:17:56 AM »

That's a new term to me. Help?

It's a nomenclature for officers who call up and say their abbreviated rank on the phone, thus suggesting more weight.

For example:
An O-5 calls up a military resort to get his family booked up for a holiday weekend at a discounted rate.
"This is Colonel Smith. I was wondering if I can book on the Weekend Adventure Pass."
"Absolutely. Can I get your pay grade, Sir?"
"O-5."
"Oh, I'm sorry Lieutenant Colonel Smith. But the rate only extends to Colonels and above."

Kind of like naval officers saying "Lieutenant" (suggesting O-3) when they're, in fact, a Lieutenant junior (O-2), or "Commander" (O-5) instead of Lieutenant Commander (O-4).

(1) "Suggesting more weight" is not why they abbreviate when addressing themselves or others.  It's a matter of expediency and... abbreviation.
(2) "Lieutenant junior" - you meant to say Lieutenant Junior Grade, right?
(3) If their peers and superiors refer to a Lt. Col as "Colonel" and a LTJG as "Lieutenant", you can be assured it's not about self-aggrandizement.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2018, 09:35:56 AM »

When you know the people doing it, yes, it's about the insinuation.  There are a lot of Lt Cols
in CAP who would really like to have those eagles.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2018, 09:54:13 AM »

Here we go....

 ::)
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,314

« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2018, 11:58:45 AM »

When you know the people doing it, yes, it's about the insinuation.  There are a lot of Lt Cols
in CAP who would really like to have those eagles.

I'll pass on the birds. The price is way too high.
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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,627

« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2018, 06:29:33 PM »

I generally address cadets by rank. I may not necessarily follow up with a name, if there's only one Sgt in a gaggle of airmen, I don't need to really specify.

I use "Cadet" as a specific address very sparingly, and when I do, I usually isn't a positive setting.
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CAPLTC
Forum Regular

Posts: 161
Unit: MER

« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2018, 08:15:20 PM »

For example:
An O-5 calls up a military resort to get his family booked up for a holiday weekend at a discounted rate.
"This is Colonel Smith. I was wondering if I can book on the Weekend Adventure Pass."

It's a real faux-pas to call yourself colonel when you're a lieutenant colonel.
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2018, 09:44:06 PM »

generally address cadets by rank. I may not necessarily follow up with a name, if there's only one Sgt in a gaggle of airmen, I don't need to really specify.

Do you say "Cadet Sgt Snuffy" or "Sgt Snuffy"?
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,464
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2018, 11:37:58 PM »

Usually the latter, unless the situation requires otherwise.

Sent using Tapatalk

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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2018, 02:47:33 AM »

Isn't Sgt Snuffy a senior member grade?
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,464
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2018, 05:22:37 AM »

Isn't Sgt Snuffy a senior member grade?

Perhaps, but, like I stated above, it's situation dependent. If there are no SM NCOs in the area, calling a cadet Sgt. Snuffy won't cause any confusion. In the unlikely event that that there are SM NCOs present, I will make the extra effort to use the cadet's entire grade.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,627

« Reply #20 on: October 26, 2018, 07:10:24 AM »

generally address cadets by rank. I may not necessarily follow up with a name, if there's only one Sgt in a gaggle of airmen, I don't need to really specify.

Do you say "Cadet Sgt Snuffy" or "Sgt Snuffy"?

In the scenario I mentioned, I'd simply say "Sergeant." If there's only one sergeant, their specific name is a little unnecessary.

For example, "Is there a sign in roster for you class here, Sgt?" Or it could be, "Sgt, could you spare a minute? I've got some paperwork that you need to sign. "
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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,627

« Reply #21 on: October 26, 2018, 07:16:45 AM »

That's a new term to me. Help?

It's a nomenclature for officers who call up and say their abbreviated rank on the phone, thus suggesting more weight.

For example:
An O-5 calls up a military resort to get his family booked up for a holiday weekend at a discounted rate.
"This is Colonel Smith. I was wondering if I can book on the Weekend Adventure Pass."
"Absolutely. Can I get your pay grade, Sir?"
"O-5."
"Oh, I'm sorry Lieutenant Colonel Smith. But the rate only extends to Colonels and above."

Kind of like naval officers saying "Lieutenant" (suggesting O-3) when they're, in fact, a Lieutenant junior (O-2), or "Commander" (O-5) instead of Lieutenant Commander (O-4).

In almost thirty years in the military, "Colonel" has been an appropriate form of address for a lieutenant colonel, just as "Lieutenant" has been acceptable for either a first or second lieutenant. Anyone wearing stars has been addressed as "General," you didn't call them "Brigadier General," "Major General," etc.

If you're doing a formal introduction, the full rank would be used, abbreviated to what has been referred to as "duty address."

"This is Lieutenant Colonel Smith of XYZ section. Colonel Smith will be managing such and such."
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,529

« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2018, 11:52:41 AM »

That's a new term to me. Help?

It's a nomenclature for officers who call up and say their abbreviated rank on the phone, thus suggesting more weight.

For example:
An O-5 calls up a military resort to get his family booked up for a holiday weekend at a discounted rate.
"This is Colonel Smith. I was wondering if I can book on the Weekend Adventure Pass."
"Absolutely. Can I get your pay grade, Sir?"
"O-5."
"Oh, I'm sorry Lieutenant Colonel Smith. But the rate only extends to Colonels and above."

Kind of like naval officers saying "Lieutenant" (suggesting O-3) when they're, in fact, a Lieutenant junior (O-2), or "Commander" (O-5) instead of Lieutenant Commander (O-4).

In almost thirty years in the military, "Colonel" has been an appropriate form of address for a lieutenant colonel, just as "Lieutenant" has been acceptable for either a first or second lieutenant. Anyone wearing stars has been addressed as "General," you didn't call them "Brigadier General," "Major General," etc.

If you're doing a formal introduction, the full rank would be used, abbreviated to what has been referred to as "duty address."

"This is Lieutenant Colonel Smith of XYZ section. Colonel Smith will be managing such and such."

Not the point, Sir.

It's referring to specific people who use the shortened title to gain a higher respect. Full-birds pull more weight than oaks. That's the whole point.

Jeez, this has turned into typical CAP Talk "But what about?!"
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,304

« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2018, 02:36:46 PM »

Must vary by Wing a lot. At most missions , SAREXs, etc., I've been to, all the Senior members walking in will say "Hey Bob, how's it going?" "Just fine Tom, what's up with you?".  I've never seen anyone salute either.




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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 737

« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2018, 03:53:26 PM »

Must vary by Wing a lot. At most missions , SAREXs, etc., I've been to, all the Senior members walking in will say "Hey Bob, how's it going?" "Just fine Tom, what's up with you?".  I've never seen anyone salute either.

To be fair, the discussion here is about cadets where grade is actually indicative as to how far they have progressed through the cadet program. Compared to senior members, their rank actually means something.
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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,627

« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2018, 05:54:46 PM »

Not the point, Sir.

It's referring to specific people who use the shortened title to gain a higher respect. Full-birds pull more weight than oaks. That's the whole point.

Fair enough. Most of the individuals that I knew of that were using duty address, I was fully aware of their actual rank.

Misrepresenting one's rank by using duty address would likely be considered unethical by most.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,314

« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2018, 07:47:24 PM »

Must vary by Wing a lot. At most missions , SAREXs, etc., I've been to, all the Senior members walking in will say "Hey Bob, how's it going?" "Just fine Tom, what's up with you?".  I've never seen anyone salute either.

The Cadet Program world is very different then then what senior members involved with ES see.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,246

« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2018, 07:55:26 PM »

Must vary by Wing a lot. At most missions , SAREXs, etc., I've been to, all the Senior members walking in will say "Hey Bob, how's it going?" "Just fine Tom, what's up with you?".  I've never seen anyone salute either.

The Cadet Program world is very different then then what senior members involved with ES see.

Ditto for those involved at a larger scale then the home unit and / or interacting regularly with outside agencies.

Maybe that's the source of the "whats the big deal, man?" attitude involving uniforms, policies, etc., etc., if your
CAP gig requires interaction with non-CAP agencies, especially if you are asking for resources or need credibility,
little things that are non-factors at the unit level become a much bigger deal.
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