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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Organizational Patch (Page 126) Attachment 4, 39-1
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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 146

« on: September 27, 2018, 12:28:32 PM »

The same "Organizational Patch" that goes on the right pocket of BDU/BBDU also goes on the right sleeve of the FDU/CFDU

I can't read that to mean anything other than squadron patches are now worn on flight suits.  Finally.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,045

« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2018, 12:33:11 PM »

Groups, Squadron, and flight insignia are explicitly excluded from wear on the USAF Style FDU.

CAPM 39-1, Page 97:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf
"8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be
worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear".


This appears to not be the case for the CFDU, another reason to wear that variant.

CAPM 39-1, Page 100:
"8.3.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch an outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn. "
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 12:36:25 PM by Eclipse » Logged


DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 181

« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2018, 02:12:28 PM »

Groups, Squadron, and flight insignia are explicitly excluded from wear on the USAF Style FDU.

CAPM 39-1, Page 97:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf
"8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be
worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear".


This appears to not be the case for the CFDU, another reason to wear that variant.

CAPM 39-1, Page 100:
"8.3.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch an outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn. "

Ridiculous too.
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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,581

« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2018, 04:13:27 PM »

OK, did someone forget to cut out a sentence when they rehashed the manual, or did they forget to paste something in the second part?
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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 146

« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2018, 04:16:32 PM »

Groups, Squadron, and flight insignia are explicitly excluded from wear on the USAF Style FDU.

CAPM 39-1, Page 97:
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/M391_E6F33EAAEC28A.pdf
"8.2.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch contained as outlined in Attachment 4 may be
worn, except organizational patches for groups, squadrons or flights are not approved for wear".


This appears to not be the case for the CFDU, another reason to wear that variant.

CAPM 39-1, Page 100:
"8.3.4.5. Right Sleeve. An authorized patch an outlined in Attachment 4 may be worn. "

Ridiculous too.

The universal CAWG flight outfit is a sage green flight jacket over a polo shirt uniform anyway.  I suppose the squadron patch being authorized on the blue, but not the green jacket might actually make people go out and get the right one.
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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 146

« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2018, 04:21:06 PM »

OK, did someone forget to cut out a sentence when they rehashed the manual, or did they forget to paste something in the second part?
If the USAF does not allow squadron patches on flight suits that may be the reason for the difference.  However when I was in 323rd the patch I had on my right shoulder had nothing to do with the USAF at all.  So at least in 1983 nobody cared.
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Hawk200
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Posts: 4,581

« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2018, 04:42:00 PM »

Here's what AFI 36-2903, 18 July 2011 says: 8.4.8. Right Sleeve. The unit emblem (squadron patch) will be worn as authorized through MAJCOM supplement to this instruction.

So the Air Force wears it on the sleeve. The MAJCOM supplement is probably the specifics on the unit emblem itself.

Be nice if CAP could get approval. (Would like to see a cloth nametag allowed too, among other things.)
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DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 181

« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2018, 04:50:20 PM »

I feel like unit pride is something that's slowly been pushed out, or at least focus has been placed on more important things, and so it's fallen by the way side.

I'll admit, my squadron just finished a complete redesign of our patch to fall within heraldry guidelines, and it just got approved, so we're looking at where we can actually wear it going "Well... that sucks" when we see as many restrictions as we do.
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Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.

PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,249

« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2018, 06:11:47 PM »

Here's what AFI 36-2903, 18 July 2011 says: 8.4.8. Right Sleeve. The unit emblem (squadron patch) will be worn as authorized through MAJCOM supplement to this instruction.

So the Air Force wears it on the sleeve. The MAJCOM supplement is probably the specifics on the unit emblem itself.

Be nice if CAP could get approval. (Would like to see a cloth nametag allowed too, among other things.)


Actually, no it isn't. There's a separate heraldry reg that regulates unit patch design.
The various MAJCOM's differ in what they wear on each shoulder. In AMC for example you are required to wear a US Flag patch on the left side and your unit patch on the right. Other MAJCOM's differ.
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PHall
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Posts: 6,249

« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2018, 06:13:37 PM »

I feel like unit pride is something that's slowly been pushed out, or at least focus has been placed on more important things, and so it's fallen by the way side.

I'll admit, my squadron just finished a complete redesign of our patch to fall within heraldry guidelines, and it just got approved, so we're looking at where we can actually wear it going "Well... that sucks" when we see as many restrictions as we do.

Something to think about before you expended a bunch of time and money in the patch redesign?
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jeders
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Posts: 2,100

« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2018, 06:32:22 PM »

I feel like unit pride is something that's slowly been pushed out, or at least focus has been placed on more important things, and so it's fallen by the way side.

I'll admit, my squadron just finished a complete redesign of our patch to fall within heraldry guidelines, and it just got approved, so we're looking at where we can actually wear it going "Well... that sucks" when we see as many restrictions as we do.

You can wear it on the BDU, BBDU, ABU, and apparently the CFDU; aside from the FDU, what more do you want?
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Eclipse
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Posts: 29,045

« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2018, 07:25:29 PM »

I feel like unit pride is something that's slowly been pushed out, or at least focus has been placed on more important things, and so it's fallen by the way side.

I'll admit, my squadron just finished a complete redesign of our patch to fall within heraldry guidelines, and it just got approved, so we're looking at where we can actually wear it going "Well... that sucks" when we see as many restrictions as we do.

You can wear it on the BDU, BBDU, ABU, and apparently the CFDU; aside from the FDU, what more do you want?

+1 Not to mention collateral, signage, etc.

Though it's been almost universally ignored, unit insignia below Region has pretty much always been disallowed.
There was some allowance for wing-approved insignia for awhile but that's no longer included.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 10:35:05 PM by Eclipse » Logged


Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,581

« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2018, 06:00:10 AM »

Here's what AFI 36-2903, 18 July 2011 says: 8.4.8. Right Sleeve. The unit emblem (squadron patch) will be worn as authorized through MAJCOM supplement to this instruction.

So the Air Force wears it on the sleeve. The MAJCOM supplement is probably the specifics on the unit emblem itself.

Be nice if CAP could get approval. (Would like to see a cloth nametag allowed too, among other things.)


Actually, no it isn't. There's a separate heraldry reg that regulates unit patch design.
The various MAJCOM's differ in what they wear on each shoulder. In AMC for example you are required to wear a US Flag patch on the left side and your unit patch on the right. Other MAJCOM's differ.
My thinking was that the MAJCOM supplements probably list something like "The following units have approved unit emblems: 123rd, 456th, 789th, etc. that may be worn on the sleeve of the FDU." I wasn't saying that the supplement had criteria for the patch itself, I would doubt that anyway.

I feel like unit pride is something that's slowly been pushed out, or at least focus has been placed on more important things, and so it's fallen by the way side.

I'll admit, my squadron just finished a complete redesign of our patch to fall within heraldry guidelines, and it just got approved, so we're looking at where we can actually wear it going "Well... that sucks" when we see as many restrictions as we do.

You can wear it on the BDU, BBDU, ABU, and apparently the CFDU; aside from the FDU, what more do you want?
Consistency? Why is it left off one uniform, when it's authorized on all the others? Doesn't make any sense.
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jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,100

« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2018, 09:14:44 AM »

I feel like unit pride is something that's slowly been pushed out, or at least focus has been placed on more important things, and so it's fallen by the way side.

I'll admit, my squadron just finished a complete redesign of our patch to fall within heraldry guidelines, and it just got approved, so we're looking at where we can actually wear it going "Well... that sucks" when we see as many restrictions as we do.

You can wear it on the BDU, BBDU, ABU, and apparently the CFDU; aside from the FDU, what more do you want?
Consistency? Why is it left off one uniform, when it's authorized on all the others? Doesn't make any sense.

I agree about that part, it doesn't make any sense. Also, the fact that Attachment 4 says that it can be worn on the FDU tells me that the intent at one point in time may have been to allow it. I was primarily responding to Doc's point about there being so many restrictions; but it's only restricted from wear on one uniform that you would otherwise expect it to be worn on.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 181

« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2018, 10:10:46 AM »

I feel like unit pride is something that's slowly been pushed out, or at least focus has been placed on more important things, and so it's fallen by the way side.

I'll admit, my squadron just finished a complete redesign of our patch to fall within heraldry guidelines, and it just got approved, so we're looking at where we can actually wear it going "Well... that sucks" when we see as many restrictions as we do.

You can wear it on the BDU, BBDU, ABU, and apparently the CFDU; aside from the FDU, what more do you want?
Consistency? Why is it left off one uniform, when it's authorized on all the others? Doesn't make any sense.

I agree about that part, it doesn't make any sense. Also, the fact that Attachment 4 says that it can be worn on the FDU tells me that the intent at one point in time may have been to allow it. I was primarily responding to Doc's point about there being so many restrictions; but it's only restricted from wear on one uniform that you would otherwise expect it to be worn on.

Thanks for wording that differently for me. That's what I meant. I find it a bit odd it's allowed on so many, just NOT the one uniform you'd expect everyone to wear it on.
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Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.

Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,045

« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2018, 10:25:40 AM »

I agree about that part, it doesn't make any sense. Also, the fact that Attachment 4 says that it can be worn on the FDU tells me that the intent at one point in time may have been to allow it. I was primarily responding to Doc's point about there being so many restrictions; but it's only restricted from wear on one uniform that you would otherwise expect it to be worn on.

Att 4 does not say it can be worn on the FDU.  Att 4 is a supporting document for reference by the reg's verbiage,
which clearly prohibits the wear of certain insignia.  It's not necessarily an oversight or mistake.

Also, while were combing through this, use of velcro for grade insignia has been prohibited since 2014 as well,
and if you choose to velcro other patches on the sleeves, you have to have a 3.5" x 3.5" square for the patches, not
cut it to shape.  So let's start making those corrections at meetings this week!

Owing to the extensive solicitations for errata, not to mention the extended public comment period on the Fall 2018 draft,
it'll be nice to see 39-1 finally issued in proper form on Monday.
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jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,100

« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2018, 10:59:16 AM »

I agree about that part, it doesn't make any sense. Also, the fact that Attachment 4 says that it can be worn on the FDU tells me that the intent at one point in time may have been to allow it. I was primarily responding to Doc's point about there being so many restrictions; but it's only restricted from wear on one uniform that you would otherwise expect it to be worn on.

Att 4 does not say it can be worn on the FDU.  Att 4 is a supporting document for reference by the reg's verbiage,
which clearly prohibits the wear of certain insignia.  It's not necessarily an oversight or mistake.

I get that; my point was that attachment 4 lists the right shoulder as an authorized placement for a unit patch on the FDU, which leads me to believe that the intent at some point was to allow unit patches. When that got changed in the actual verbiage of the reg to prohibit unit patches, the supporting documentation in attachment 4 was not updated.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,045

« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2018, 11:05:39 AM »

I agree about that part, it doesn't make any sense. Also, the fact that Attachment 4 says that it can be worn on the FDU tells me that the intent at one point in time may have been to allow it. I was primarily responding to Doc's point about there being so many restrictions; but it's only restricted from wear on one uniform that you would otherwise expect it to be worn on.

Att 4 does not say it can be worn on the FDU.  Att 4 is a supporting document for reference by the reg's verbiage,
which clearly prohibits the wear of certain insignia.  It's not necessarily an oversight or mistake.

I get that; my point was that attachment 4 lists the right shoulder as an authorized placement for a unit patch on the FDU, which leads me to believe that the intent at some point was to allow unit patches. When that got changed in the actual verbiage of the reg to prohibit unit patches, the supporting documentation in attachment 4 was not updated.

There are soooo many ways to not have a complicated uniform manual, and 39-1 discards >all< of them.

On the whole, the reader has no military experience, inconsistent (at best) local mentoring, and probably has to have the
nice lady on the corner do their sewing.  That fact should be the #1 filter for not only 39-1 but every regulation.

Give the drafts to a mom - if they can't understand it on the first read, it's a fail.

Oh...and actually have drafts for public comment.
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Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,581

« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2018, 06:15:01 PM »

Give the drafts to a mom - if they can't understand it on the first read, it's a fail.

Oh...and actually have drafts for public comment.
Now, now, Eclipse, we can't be doing things that make sense. Somebody'll get fired over it.  ;D
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