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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: CAPR 35-6 Question
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« on: September 14, 2018, 02:09:43 PM »

I need to get an opinion (yes, I know I am opening up this can of worms) on the interpretation of CAPR 35-6: Waiver of CAP Service. According to paragraph 7 it states:

7. Waiver of CAP Service. A request for waiver to substitute military or other government
rated service for the senior and command pilot, senior and master observer, senior and master
aircrew rating, senior and master ground team badge, and senior and master incident commander
badge for CAP service requirements must be submitted by wing commanders, through the region
commander to NHQ CAP/DO. A waiver may be requested anytime, and will be effective upon
approval of NHQ CAP/DO. Waivers for equivalent time towards badges and awards are not
waivers of requirements towards earning or maintaining CAP qualifications for the CAPF 101
and serving in those positions IAW CAPR 60-3. Waiver requests must include:

a. Proof of the memberís military or other government aeronautical rating or qualification
like the DD 214 or other official service records from the agency which the member earned the
equivalent qualification.

b. Listing of FAA certificates and ratings held if applicable.

c. Documentation of hours flown or time served in the equivalent qualifications.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If a person is qualified as a U.S. Air Force enlisted aircrew member with 1900+ hours, 300+ sorties, and 9+ years of experience, would they qualify for a master observer badge (not rating) if they were previously qualified as a basic observer?

There is no "observer" rating or badge in the military so what would be considered an equivalent under the CAP regulation?

The SQTR for observer does not match exactly with the military but almost every requirement could be accomplished by a military aircrew member.

Thanks in advance...
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,234

« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2018, 02:21:28 PM »

There is no "observer" rating or badge in the military so what would be considered an equivalent under the CAP regulation?

There's the rub, that's the argument you need to make.  If you're not even sure, then how could you expect CAP leadership to be?

The SQTR for observer does not match exactly with the military but almost every requirement could be accomplished by a military aircrew member.

"Could be" and was are two different things, and CAP tends to be "its own thing".  Considering
this would need to be approved at about 4 levels, including NHQ, it's doubtful it would be,
and really, what does it serve?

Those hours-based ratings don't mean much of anything as a lot of members with the hours don't bother.

It's not a can of worms, if you can show you did equivalent service in the military and it's worth your time
for a laurel on an unrelated badge in a different service, send it up, but don't be upset if it gets knocked down mid-way.

One example, a great Loadmaster really hasn't done much of anything related to CAP low and slow SAR.

A pilot with equivalent military hours would have a much easier time justifying the hours-based bumps.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 02:24:36 PM by Eclipse » Logged


jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2018, 02:33:33 PM »

Quote
There's the rub, that's the argument you need to make.  If you're not even sure, then how could you expect CAP leadership to be?

Then what is the point of mentioning observer in the regulation without guidance?

Quote
"Could be" and was are two different things, and CAP tends to be "its own thing".  Considering
this would need to be approved at about 4 levels, including NHQ, it's doubtful it would be,
and really, what does it serve?

Exactly. So why the addition to the regulation? Is it to recognize the experience of military members or just fluff?

Quote
Those hours-based ratings don't mean much of anything as a lot of members with the hours don't bother.

They do mean quite a bit.

Quote
It's not a can of worms, if you can show you did equivalent service in the military and it's worth your time
for a laurel on an unrelated badge in a different service, send it up, but don't be upset if it gets knocked down mid-way.

One example, a great Loadmaster really hasn't done much of anything related to CAP low and slow SAR.

Yes they have.

Quote
A pilot with equivalent military hours would have a much easier time justifying the hours-based bumps.

Not necessarily.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 02:41:22 PM by jb512 » Logged
CAP9907
Member

Posts: 73
Unit: NER-000

« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2018, 02:49:24 PM »

I suppose that would be a lot of work just to wear a badge on a uniform that at the end of the day does absolutely zero to further any of CAPs missions...  but perhaps that is just me, YMMV.
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16 yrs of service
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,234

« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2018, 03:00:39 PM »

As someone who used to be in a position to approve this type of thing, I simply provided
the arguments and requirements you will need and encounter if you submit such a request.

Approval is entirely subjective and it's up to the member making the request to justify the equivalency.

You can't expect CAP to maintain a matrix of every possible military MOS and how it might
equate to a CAP ES Qualification, that's just not a reasonable expectation.

It would be easier, and probably more meaningful, to simply wear the military badge.

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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2018, 03:01:47 PM »

I suppose that would be a lot of work just to wear a badge on a uniform that at the end of the day does absolutely zero to further any of CAPs missions...  but perhaps that is just me, YMMV.

I'm not sure how to apply that to the original question... You are correct though - the badge itself will not help anyone perform a CAP mission. None of our badges, ribbons, or insignia will accomplish an emergency services task.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 03:05:29 PM by jb512 » Logged
jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2018, 03:03:41 PM »

As someone who used to be in a position to approve this type of things, I just gave
the arguments and requirements you will need and encounter if you submit such a request.

It's entirely subjective and up to the member making the request to justify the equivalency.
You can't expect CAP to maintain a matrix of every possible military MOS and how it might
equate to a CAP ES Qualification, that's just not a reasonable expectation.

It would be easier, and probably more meaningful, to simply wear the military badge.

That makes sense. I just wanted to get an opinion on how to interpret the regulation and see if anyone else had experience with the waiver process. I was also curious why it was added.
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DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,365

« Reply #7 on: September 20, 2018, 12:12:56 PM »

I suppose that would be a lot of work just to wear a badge on a uniform that at the end of the day does absolutely zero to further any of CAPs missions...  but perhaps that is just me, YMMV.

I'm not sure how to apply that to the original question... You are correct though - the badge itself will not help anyone perform a CAP mission. None of our badges, ribbons, or insignia will accomplish an emergency services task.
Earning a badge and having specific Civil Air Patrol knowledge will in fact further our missions.

Being awarded a uniform decoration without our actual organization training- well, you are correct, the wearer would not be more mission ready in *this* organization anymore than my paramedic badge makes me a PJ.

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,653

« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2018, 02:08:20 PM »

Well......you got your answer.

Yes.   Some USAF aircrew positions might qualify for a CAP service waiver for the observer wings.

Write up the request.  Send it up the chain to NHQ for approval/disapproval.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2018, 02:16:06 PM »

No, I think it's best to leave the quals and badges to the respective issuing authority and not try to cross them over. I did get my answer and it makes sense.

Looking at the national commander he has AF command pilot wings and basic CAP pilot wings so if he's not utilizing the reg then there's our example.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,234

« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2018, 02:32:43 PM »

Looking at the national commander he has AF command pilot wings and basic CAP pilot wings so if he's not utilizing the reg then there's our example.

Maj Gen Smith retired from the USAF as a Colonel.

He's not using an equivalency, he's simply wearing the wings he earned in the Air Force.

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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2018, 02:43:44 PM »

Looking at the national commander he has AF command pilot wings and basic CAP pilot wings so if he's not utilizing the reg then there's our example.

Maj Gen Smith retired from the USAF as a Colonel.

He's not using an equivalency, he's simply wearing the wings he earned in the Air Force.

Correct. And he did not ask for an equivalency from his AF rating for his CAP wings, they are basic.
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ol'fido
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,889
Unit: DOTCOTE.

« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2018, 02:45:49 PM »

From Wikipedia:

United States Air Force Navigator Observer Badge.svg

The USAF awards observer ratings at three levels: Observer, Senior Observer, and Master Observer, for active duty officers and officers considered "rated assets" in the Air Reserve Components. The insignia is identical to USAF Navigator/CSO and is typically only awarded as an "observer" insignia with the Astronaut emblem to USAF officers who have completed training as NASA Mission Specialist Astronauts, have flown at least once in space in the Space Shuttle and/or served at the International Space Station, and are not otherwise rated as USAF Pilots or USAF Navigators/CSOs. The following additional criteria are required to be rated as a USAF Observer:

Not directly related to CAP's concept of an "Observer" but the USAF rating does exist.
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Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006
jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2018, 02:58:38 PM »

From Wikipedia:

United States Air Force Navigator Observer Badge.svg

The USAF awards observer ratings at three levels: Observer, Senior Observer, and Master Observer, for active duty officers and officers considered "rated assets" in the Air Reserve Components. The insignia is identical to USAF Navigator/CSO and is typically only awarded as an "observer" insignia with the Astronaut emblem to USAF officers who have completed training as NASA Mission Specialist Astronauts, have flown at least once in space in the Space Shuttle and/or served at the International Space Station, and are not otherwise rated as USAF Pilots or USAF Navigators/CSOs. The following additional criteria are required to be rated as a USAF Observer:

Not directly related to CAP's concept of an "Observer" but the USAF rating does exist.

Interesting. So an AF astronaut, not otherwise rated, would qualify for the CAP observer badge? That's definitely an over-qualification.  ;)
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,234

« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2018, 03:14:01 PM »

Interesting. So an AF astronaut, not otherwise rated, would qualify for the CAP observer badge? That's definitely an over-qualification.  ;)

No, he would wear his Astronaut wings or USAF observer badge.

Why would he want to reach for an equivalency when he's already got a badge for that space?
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jb512
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 832

« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2018, 03:28:29 PM »

Interesting. So an AF astronaut, not otherwise rated, would qualify for the CAP observer badge? That's definitely an over-qualification.  ;)

No, he would wear his Astronaut wings or USAF observer badge.

Why would he want to reach for an equivalency when he's already got a badge for that space?

*insert facepalm meme*

I was just asking a simple question.
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Ned
Resident Philosopher

Posts: 2,203

« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2018, 06:30:53 PM »

Interesting. So an AF astronaut, not otherwise rated, would qualify for the CAP observer badge? That's definitely an over-qualification.  ;)

No, he would wear his Astronaut wings or USAF observer badge.

Why would he want to reach for an equivalency when he's already got a badge for that space?

In all seriousness, when I served on the NUC not so long ago, we received a request to approve CAP Astronaut wings.

It was not approved.
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DakRadz
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,365

« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2018, 06:58:00 AM »

Interesting. So an AF astronaut, not otherwise rated, would qualify for the CAP observer badge? That's definitely an over-qualification.  ;)

No, he would wear his Astronaut wings or USAF observer badge.

Why would he want to reach for an equivalency when he's already got a badge for that space?

In all seriousness, when I served on the NUC not so long ago, we received a request to approve CAP Astronaut wings.

It was not approved.
Hahahaha....

Though we do have a few 'nauts that are still active or semi-active

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: CAPR 35-6 Question
 


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