Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 20, 2018, 04:49:46 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Cadet to SM processing times
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print
Author Topic: Cadet to SM processing times  (Read 1465 times)
airbatic
Recruit

Posts: 6

« on: August 20, 2018, 05:59:36 PM »

Does anyone have recent experience with senior cadets aging up to senior membership? A former Spaatz cadet I know made the transition in early July. It seems like it's taking a really long time to get his promotion processed and PD record updated. Is this common? Does anybody know what might cause the delay?

If this is common, I'll bet it's part of the reason we don't see more cadets turn senior.
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2018, 06:12:18 PM »

Does anyone have recent experience with senior cadets aging up to senior membership? A former Spaatz cadet I know made the transition in early July. It seems like it's taking a really long time to get his promotion processed and PD record updated. Is this common? Does anybody know what might cause the delay?

Is this a "hearsay" thing that it's being dragged out, or do you know this to be fact? Did he submit all of his paperwork and fingerprints in a timely fashion?

I don't think there's really a 'time' to expect it to take. I've seen it take a week to process when a cadet of mine turned senior. But I know sometimes paper transitions can take a while.

Quote
If this is common, I'll bet it's part of the reason we don't see more cadets turn senior.

I would bet that hasn't crossed anyone's mind: "The process takes too long, so I'm not going to transition over."

If anything, it's "I don't know if I want to be a senior."


On a side note, don't consider it to be a 'promotion.' It's a transition of membership. You can't promote from cadet to senior. Just like NCOs who go through an officer candidate school don't promote to become officers; they go through a training program that commissions them.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2018, 06:18:06 PM »

Is this former cadet through the BGC, etc., and showing as a senior member on the roster?
His CPPT & OPSEC etc., etc., is update, entered and showing properly that he has LI completed?  (Seen it not happen.)
He's exempt from Foundations, but not the rest.

Assuming the above, how / where was the request for promotion based on Spaatz sent?

The promotion is not automatic, nor should it be assumed, and still has to go hard-copy through the
chain to at least Group and then NHQ.
Logged


TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2018, 06:24:03 PM »

The promotion is not automatic, nor should it be assumed, and still has to go hard-copy through the
chain to at least Group and then NHQ.

To add onto that...

There are cases in which a person may qualify to be promoted automatically on transfer of membership (e.g., to Capt), but that's not an automatic thing that occurs. Some commanders may withhold someone from that promotion due to their comfort of the individual's readiness. So prior grade does not automatically equal next higher. The same applies for JROTC cadets who may be promoted at an accelerated rate, but commanders aren't required to approve them until they feel the cadet has earned it. Seniors are the same.

Processing is as processing is. It can take a while in some cases. As Eclipse said, you may face a situation where the person was put into the system, but they have yet to complete the required online training (fairly common).

Just be careful on assumptions of what's going on behind the scenes. Sometimes people pull the "This is ridiculous, how long this takes!" when perhaps they were previously told "You need to do this, and you haven't done it yet."

I get the curiosity, but be cautious in addressing issues others are having. They can address it themselves if they have a problem.
Logged
airbatic
Recruit

Posts: 6

« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2018, 06:28:59 PM »

Does anyone have recent experience with senior cadets aging up to senior membership? A former Spaatz cadet I know made the transition in early July. It seems like it's taking a really long time to get his promotion processed and PD record updated. Is this common? Does anybody know what might cause the delay?

Is this a "hearsay" thing that it's being dragged out, or do you know this to be fact? Did he submit all of his paperwork and fingerprints in a timely fashion?

I don't think there's really a 'time' to expect it to take. I've seen it take a week to process when a cadet of mine turned senior. But I know sometimes paper transitions can take a while.

I know the guy really well, so it isn't hearsay. His membership application was processed quickly with no issues. As a Spaatz Award recipient, he is eligible for Captain, Level II, Yeager Award, COBC, SLS, and senior rating in CP specialty track. That's the stuff that's taking a while.
Logged
jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,091

« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2018, 06:33:23 PM »

Does anyone have recent experience with senior cadets aging up to senior membership? A former Spaatz cadet I know made the transition in early July. It seems like it's taking a really long time to get his promotion processed and PD record updated. Is this common? Does anybody know what might cause the delay?

Is this a "hearsay" thing that it's being dragged out, or do you know this to be fact? Did he submit all of his paperwork and fingerprints in a timely fashion?

I don't think there's really a 'time' to expect it to take. I've seen it take a week to process when a cadet of mine turned senior. But I know sometimes paper transitions can take a while.

I know the guy really well, so it isn't hearsay. His membership application was processed quickly with no issues. As a Spaatz Award recipient, he is eligible for Captain, Level II, Yeager Award, COBC, SLS, and senior rating in CP specialty track. That's the stuff that's taking a while.

Has any of it actually been submitted properly? I've seen multiple occasions where neither the cadet nor the senior leadership actually knows how to process this stuff; combine that with the assumption that it's all automatic and you have people waiting a very long time.
Logged
If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2018, 06:33:51 PM »

Yes eligible.  It has to be submitted and processed, and in this case it's paper, not eservices.
Logged


airbatic
Recruit

Posts: 6

« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2018, 06:40:49 PM »

Yes eligible.  It has to be submitted and processed, and in this case it's paper, not eservices.

As far as I know, the CAPF2 was submitted and approved by his unit and wing commander and his unit commander sent the written request for his PD record to be updated to NHQ PD. Perhaps  TheSkyHornet got it right...

Processing is as processing is.
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2018, 06:50:07 PM »

Yes eligible.  It has to be submitted and processed, and in this case it's paper, not eservices.

As far as I know, the CAPF2 was submitted and approved by his unit and wing commander and his unit commander sent the written request for his PD record to be updated to NHQ PD. Perhaps  TheSkyHornet got it right...

Processing is as processing is.

That's the waiting game there.

So consider that he transitioned in July, and here we are in August tracking down a paper form that was sent out sometime over the last couple of weeks. It's not like this has been 6 months.

Give them a chance to make the process. The unit Commander and Personnel Officer can inquire if they have concerns. But I wouldn't worry about it much at this point.

This is kind of one of those "it is what it is" type deals. Several months, while slow, is still better than federal government speed. Appreciate that.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2018, 06:59:49 PM »

If it was actually approved and submitted to NHQ, it should have been almost immediate.

It's possible it's in an actual envelope somewhere waiting for the Wing Finance committee to
approve the expenditure of the stamps.
Logged


PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,204

« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2018, 07:36:02 PM »

First things first, has this former cadet shown up on the membership roster as a Senior Member yet?
That has to happen first before anything else can happen.
So if there was a problem with the fingerprint card or whatever, it has to be resolved first.
Only after they show up as a senior member can you submit the Form 2 for their promotion.
Logged
airbatic
Recruit

Posts: 6

« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2018, 07:51:18 PM »

First things first, has this former cadet shown up on the membership roster as a Senior Member yet?
That has to happen first before anything else can happen.
So if there was a problem with the fingerprint card or whatever, it has to be resolved first.
Only after they show up as a senior member can you submit the Form 2 for their promotion.

Yes, they show up on SM roster, CPPT, EO, Lvl1, OPSEC, etc. have all been completed
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2018, 08:13:57 PM »

Wait, AKWG?

In July?  Probably have to wait until the ice road freezes back up.

Logged


MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,903
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2018, 09:16:29 PM »

So he’s showing on the MML as a Senior Member and has the basic stuff CPPT, EO, etc. Sounds like the Level II hasn’t been updated. Are you sure it was submitted, should be done after the membership is done, otherwise it may go into the “waiting for something” pile. Since NHQ PD staff is currently at the National Conference, you’re going to have to wait a week to call them.
Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2018, 09:43:26 PM »

"MML"  Wow - definitely showing your vintage!
Logged


MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,903
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2018, 09:56:25 PM »

"MML"  Wow - definitely showing your vintage!

Yeah, but It also means i don’t have to pay dues for the rest of my life
Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2018, 10:08:57 PM »

Guys, guys...

Level II would have been showing not on the MML, but on the SMTLR!

(If, of course, it would have been visible depending on the dot matrix print on the green and white paper)

V/r
Spam

Logged
MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,903
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2018, 12:02:00 AM »

Guys, guys...

Level II would have been showing not on the MML, but on the SMTLR!

(If, of course, it would have been visible depending on the dot matrix print on the green and white paper)

V/r
Spam



Never said it was on the membership listing, was quoting the original poster as to his/her quals.
 
Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,903
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2018, 12:03:49 AM »

Now that level III has been a requirement for Captain for four years, when do you think National will make Spaatzen 1Lt's, instead of captain? or will they give them Level III?
Logged
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
airbatic
Recruit

Posts: 6

« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2018, 12:55:02 AM »

Wait, AKWG?

In July?  Probably have to wait until the ice road freezes back up.



Well played sir! :clap: :clap: :clap:
Logged
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,204

« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2018, 01:20:46 AM »

Now that level III has been a requirement for Captain for four years, when do you think National will make Spaatzen 1Lt's, instead of captain? or will they give them Level III?

They probably don't even know they have a conflict in the regulations yet.
Logged
bjf_55
Recruit

Posts: 9

« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2018, 09:10:28 AM »

I helped a Spaatz Cadet with this process last year. He turned 21 at the end of February and he submitted all of his paperwork including his senior application, fingerprint card, letter requesting LV1, LV2, Cadet Programs Senior Rating, SLS, Yeager and promotion request right away. His approved senior status (as apposed to patron status) came first in March, all of the LV1, LV2 and connected courses came in at the end of April and the promotion to Capt at the beginning of June. Hope this helps with the timeline it seems to take to get everything processed with National and through the chain of command. 
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2018, 09:41:27 AM »

Now that level III has been a requirement for Captain for four years, when do you think National will make Spaatzen 1Lt's, instead of captain? or will they give them Level III?

An interesting dilemma - there's no way the average Spaatz cadet has the experience or has done the work to
pencil-whip Level III, which would also include waiving 2 conferences, which would be a very sore point
for all those who have had to endure a sleepy rubber chicken at the Airport Ramada Inn.

Even Level II at this point is a bit much.
For every Triple-Diamond that is cadet of the year, there's 10-20 who just rode the minimums and
punched their ticket, not that doing that is a small matter, but like the Eagle in the BSA, you can
quietly participate in relatively unexciting ways and get the same award.  No unit leadership roles,
no staff service (though that recently changed to a degree), just come to meetings hit 1 encampments
and a coupe of NCSAs as a participant, not staff.

A more appropriate course, considering the raised expectations, would be to confer Captain to
dark-siding cadets as a Brevet grade, with an appropriate amount of time (4 years?)to catch-up the PD
to the requisite level, dropping back to 1st Lt if they don't.  This would allow for those top-performers
to continue to contribute to the organization at their high level, while not just giving away the railroad
tracks to those who decide not to play CAP anymore.

I would also say that the dark-siding needs to be immediate, vs. lapsing membership and coming back in
5-10 years and wanting railroad tracks based on Spaatz.  An unbroken membership at least insinuate continued
participation and relatively currency in the program.

There should be no mistake that taking the time out as an adult to achieve LIII is a completely different proposition
then going to RCLS or COS, etc., as an adolescent.  Not to mention fulfilling the responsibilities of a staff
role(s) at the senior level requires more effort as an adult, and that the staff service in question
isn't even a requirement for cadets to attain Spaatz.

I've never understood why the PD level is conferred on Spaatz cadets - the grade, whatever, but
PD is supposed to be a vetted reflection of experience, and Spaatz cadets do not demonstrate that
experience through an SDA.

Leaving things as-is will also not quash the under-30 year old Lt Cols, but will potentially engender
a little hostility or jealousy from those seasoned members who worked for 15-20 years only to have the
rules changed and see Lt Col become an unattainable goal because of NSC, while those young whipper-snappers
who still have more flexibility are able to get there, and may well get preferential selection for the limited
slots because they are viewed as "the future".

« Last Edit: August 21, 2018, 09:47:22 AM by Eclipse » Logged


NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,929
Unit: of issue

« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2018, 01:15:03 PM »

Just remember that all of this is "exception processing" in that these equivalencies don't happen automagically in eservices. There's no "Oh, look,  a Mitchell | Earhart | Eaker | Spaatz in the record, flip this bit over here.."


Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
GaryVC
Forum Regular

Posts: 182
Unit: PCR-NV-070

« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2018, 01:52:53 PM »

We have a now former cadet who got his Spaatz in February and aged out about a week later. After submitting the form through the squadron commander twice and handing it to the wing commander about 3 weeks ago he was finally promoted a few days ago. He has not received any of the other "benefits" as yet. Since he is going into his final year at West Point we don't  see him very often.
Logged
Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,663

« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2018, 03:57:31 PM »

Nin-

Automagically? Not automatically?

Is that a new word?

I like what it implies!
Logged

Squadron Administrative Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
s.cap
Recruit

Posts: 9
Unit: SER-GA-045

« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2018, 08:33:40 PM »

I’ve not posted more than a few words on these forums and it is my hope that this is helpful to those wondering how to get this done.

My experience with this came as I attempted to figure out how to get this done for myself.

What I discovered after as few years of watching the forums and asking the questions was:

(apologies for not abbreviating)

CAPR 50-17 Chapter 9 Sections a & b,
Quote
CHAPTER 9 - SPECIAL RECOGINITION PROGRAMS

9-1. Special Recognition Programs for Prior Cadets. Achievements that were earned as a CAP cadet may be applied to fulfill Senior Member Professional Development Program credit(s). This applies to all senior members who earned certain achievements as former cadets, regardless of the dates of their cadet memberships. These achievements are explained below:

a. Credit will be awarded to former cadets based on specific accomplishments. Those members who earned the Mitchell Award and have a less than two-year break in service may receive credit for Level I completion. Members who earned the Earhart Award may receive the technician rating in the Cadet Programs Officer specialty track. Members who have earned the Eaker Award may be awarded completion of SLS, the CAP Officer Basic Course, and Level II. In addition to Level II completion, members who earned the Spaatz Award may be awarded the senior rating in the Cadet Programs Officer specialty track and the Yeager Award.

b. Official recognition of these achievements will be awarded on an individual basis. Former cadets who qualify for these awards should submit a written request, approved by their commander, to NHQ/DPR to have the member’s permanent record updated to reflect the appropriate equivalency as described above and issuance of the Yeager Award, if applicable. If completion of required cadet accomplishments is not already a part of the member’s permanent record, then supporting documentation must be attached to the request.

I now just send a email to LMMEFORMS@capnhq.gov with an attached PDF memorandum: (printed with permission of Capt Holberton)



A week later we get the Davis in the mail and the record reflects the appropriate levels.

I've done this successfully with 3 former cadets now although I confess getting the PD awards back-dated has never happened.  Get this done quickly on the squadron side.

Sending in the form 2's, for a Section 2, is a bit more challenging.  Commanders at all echelons have become accustom to clicking on pending approvals in eServices.  To my knowledge there is no way to request special promotions for former cadets within eServices.  I would suggest some polite hand-holding on processing the form 2's from group through wing.

Good luck!
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,944

« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2018, 09:46:07 PM »

Definitely a good example - always make sure whoever you are asking to do something has
all the information in one place.  Radar would be proud.

With that said, and something not mentioned here yet is that each echelon is required to have the
respective promotion board consider the promotion, even for a Spaatz.  That can be perfunctory,
but it's still supposed to be done, so for a Captain that's at least two boards that would delay the process.

Logged


CAP_truth
Seasoned Member

Posts: 250

« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2018, 09:51:20 PM »

I would forward to wing along with CAPF2 via chain of command for wing commander's signature for promotion to Capt. Wing cam forward all paperwork so everything can be added at one time.
Logged
Cadet CoP
Wilson
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2018, 10:25:53 PM »



"Radar would be proud" indeed!

... HEY, I know these guys!

<grin>
Spam


Logged
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2018, 10:35:09 PM »



PS, hey NHQ/DA:  does anyone spell check the draft regulations before sending out the smooth copies for signature? 

Ref: "CAPR 50-17 4 JUNE 2015
CHAPTER 9 - SPECIAL RECOGINITION PROGRAMS"

(Saving that one to my CAP publication error check file... the best one yet was the "Aerospace '81" cadet AE book that claimed that the north magnetic pole was centered on a large mass of magnetic rock buried in central Canada, presumably festooned with lost prospector pickaxes, Wolverine Adamantium skeletons, and crashed aircraft hulls).


Cheers
Spam



Logged
airbatic
Recruit

Posts: 6

« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2018, 03:24:17 AM »

OP here with an update: NHQ got his PD records updated yesterday. Promotion to Captain is still pending. Fancy that - the system actually works!
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,395

« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2018, 11:26:57 AM »

OP here with an update: NHQ got his PD records updated yesterday. Promotion to Captain is still pending. Fancy that - the system actually works!

Maybe they read the board  ;)
Logged
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,204

« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2018, 01:44:01 PM »

OP here with an update: NHQ got his PD records updated yesterday. Promotion to Captain is still pending. Fancy that - the system actually works!

Maybe they read the board  ;)

Or the fact that things need to happen in a set sequence.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [All] Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Cadet to SM processing times
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.511 seconds with 25 queries.