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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Pesky Parents...Again... Affecting their Cadets
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,474

« on: August 17, 2018, 05:50:15 PM »

Some time ago, I posted a topic asking about how units deal with pesky parents who cause scheduling issues with their cadets:
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=21959.msg400963#msg400963

I'm going to reverse this question---

I'm the proud owner of a shiny new set of cadets whose mom is a real pain in the butt. That's about as nicely as I can put it.

I get phone calls. I get emails. If there's a question, rather than sending the cadet to go to their chain of command, my phone rings. I emphasize "You should really be asking them to talk to their leadership." "Well, she doesn't know who that is." Bull. You didn't ask her.

I've told the cadet to make sure she follows through with her chain of command. And she's a fairly headstrong cadet (just like mom!) who is trying to get her bearings. So I don't think she's the issue, nor her sibling.

If we have an activity offsite, mom calls asking for the address. She calls about fundraising ideas. She comes up to me at meeting start with commentary about what we should be doing. It's persistent.

Recently, mom wanted her beloved kids to be in a veterans ceremony (you may have seen this discussed on other topics) in their CAP uniforms. Our unit did not approve that. Mom gave the 'threat' that "They'll do it anyway; I don't care." So we made it a point on our end that there would be a cadet counseling session if they are found to be acting on behalf of CAP and the unit when they were specifically instructed not to by the Commander.

Here we are again: mom is working a recruiting event that has zero interface with us, for an external organization. She drops the ball last week that "Civil Air Patrol will be there anyway, so can they (her cadets) wear their uniforms." Lady, we don't even know what you're talking about. CAP's going to be where exactly? You're just randomly planning on having a booth set up to recruit CAP members?

NONE of it is out of malice at all. It's all, in her eyes, a benefit to us.

But if the answer isn't given right then and there when the question is asked, mom acts on her own.

Several months ago, I had questions about fundraising that resulted in mom raising some external funds---methods and agencies aside---which resulted in a check being donated to CAP. We never received it; it went to Wing. It caused a lot of stirs internally because we're trying to track down finances that were in our name that never went through us. --- I'm trying to avoid the CAP Finance talk here; totally separate subject. It's the act of it that's the problem.

As said, it's all with good intents. But it's always something with this woman.

As a Deputy Commander for Cadets, some of it is on my plate, and some of it on the plates of other members (including our senior staff and Commander). But when it comes down to the individual conduct of the cadets, here I am going "So...wait a minute....the Commander said no to this, but mom 'made' you do it anyway? Okay, this is an issue."

It's such a delicate area to touch because it's not the cadets that are an issue, and we don't want to lose them by starting a fight. But going around the unit to act on behalf of the unit because 'mom said so' is an issue.

Several days ago I got mom in my face going "Nobody told (her son) how to log onto eServices or check his email." HUH?! Lady, that's all talk when they joined. There's literally a packet he received with his login info. "He never got any of that." Yes, he did. And if he has an issue, he needs to bring that up. Now, of course, I didn't say that. I said "Have him talk to his chain of command." My mistake. I didn't know that was the worst idea ever apparently to say to a mother. "He has and they haven't done anything."

Oy vey.

So what are the thoughts on this type of stuff? How do you deal with these parents who have to be involved at every level, in every process, and just initiating random nonsense on their own out of the goodness of their hearts...when it affects their cadets?


[Sidebar: I need a Tylenol after writing that.]
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MSG Mac
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,930
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2018, 06:18:30 PM »

Sounds like mom needs a "Come to Jesus" talk.

Topics

Cadets cant attend activities without the approval of the Squadron Commander or designated representitive.
Cadets have a chain of command for a reason, so that questions or problems are handled quickly and easily
CAdets are provided with log on instructions with their CAPID# in an email when their membership is processed by NHQ

tell her that if she joins she can be in charge of fuund raising and the senior Member who chaperones cadet activities.

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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,257

« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2018, 08:00:35 PM »

Tippy toes for sure.  This very outgoing woman obviously isn't the one you want bad mouthing the Squadron, if she gets mad and pulls her kids out.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 352

« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2018, 09:29:16 PM »

I’d offer her a membership application or a restraining order. She can take her kids on down the road too if she doesn’t like the choice. You frankly don’t need the headache, and I wouldn’t really have a problem telling the cadets that their mom is the reason they aren’t going to be doing CAP anymore.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,109

« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2018, 10:20:39 AM »

There are many parents who go through life "special" - wanting the extra attention, and possibly
treatment, that a relationship with the leadership of a respective organization that they, or their kid,
in involved in brings, whether that is because they become "friends", or force a fear or retribution.

Further to this, many parents misunderstand CAP's place in the universe and the nature of a volunteer
organization, even one that portends to be "kinda-sorta" part of a government agency.

They treat CAP, and volunteer staff in the same way they likely treat their kids teachers, school board staff,
and condo association, namely a lot of "I can't / you didn't / you will", etc. when they fault is in their own stars.
They will monopolize the leadership's time, and ignore conventions and established processes if it makes their lives easier.

Your best bet is to treat her / them in the exact same way you treat everyone else in CAP - fairly, with respect,
and dividing your limited time equally and in proportion to the need as you see fit.

Refer her to established process and NHQ resources when appropriate, and don't feel guilty about not hand-holding,
especially if it's your third time down the track.

Your primary job is the member experience in accomplishing the mission, but it's all of those in your charge,
not just a couple who can't be bothered.  Everyone needs help occasionally, but it's not fair to the rest of the
unit for a parent to decide you are easier then Google, or for them to helicopter their cadet away from the
very lessons CAP seeks to impart.
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docsteve
Recruit

Posts: 49

Steve's Musings on Life
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2018, 05:07:57 PM »

Sounds like my mom (RIP). 


One should not assume that the kids are unaware-of or approve-of mom's behavior.  It may be very embarrassing to them. 


About not knowing the who or the how, an off-hand remark meant to convey "I've never done that so I'm not sure if I can" is heard by mom as "she doesn't know; you never told her."  Kids may be very intimidated in that atmosphere.



Helicopter parents are all over.  It has even gotten into college classes.  One semester I was briefed (along with the rest of the department) that if we ever heard anything like, "My little snowflake deserved an A and only got a B and I'm calling my lawyer" that we stop the conversation right there and refer it to the school legal office.



Be careful with the kids.
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Steve Sconfienza, Ph.D.
former captain
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,881

« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2018, 05:28:04 PM »

Email her a link to this thread?
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,474

« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2018, 05:46:58 PM »

Cadets cant attend activities without the approval of the Squadron Commander or designated representitive.
Cadets have a chain of command for a reason, so that questions or problems are handled quickly and easily
CAdets are provided with log on instructions with their CAPID# in an email when their membership is processed by NHQ

My thoughts exactly.

I’d offer her a membership application

Oh, God, no.

Your primary job is the member experience in accomplishing the mission, but it's all of those in your charge,
not just a couple who can't be bothered.  Everyone needs help occasionally, but it's not fair to the rest of the
unit for a parent to decide you are easier then Google, or for them to helicopter their cadet away from the
very lessons CAP seeks to impart.

Couldn't agree more.

That was a conversation I had in the car with a pal of mine yesterday: it's increasingly hard to teach teenagers these lessons when their parents strip them of the opportunity to be taught.


One should not assume that the kids are unaware-of or approve-of mom's behavior.  It may be very embarrassing to them.

I'm not so sure that's the case. Girl child has had a couple of instances where the cadet staff has had to step in and get her off her podium when she's overstepped. It's been an area to watch for with her now, and she's starting to show signs of turning into mom down the road.

Quote
Helicopter parents are all over.  It has even gotten into college classes.  One semester I was briefed (along with the rest of the department) that if we ever heard anything like, "My little snowflake deserved an A and only got a B and I'm calling my lawyer" that we stop the conversation right there and refer it to the school legal office.

Yeeeaah, I'm not exactly the greatest person to say that to. I don't have the best...what you might call...tact...for ultimatums and threats.

 

Email her a link to this thread?

Right?
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CAPLTC
Forum Regular

Posts: 151
Unit: MER

« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2018, 04:19:24 PM »

Tippy toes for sure.  This very outgoing woman obviously isn't the one you want bad mouthing the Squadron, if she gets mad and pulls her kids out.
Recruit her. Put her to work.
Channel all that energy to ALL of the cadets in the Squadron.
She can be a net asset to everyone.
Mom obviously has the will and ability to make stuff happen, get her on your team.
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until they’re so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,133
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2018, 08:39:30 PM »


For his situation, that could be analogous to buying a Ferrari.  High performance, but high maintenance costs and you need to stay ahead of it at all times or it will run you off the road and kill you without warning.

Suddenly his unit has taken on that one member who provides an incidental increase in recruiting and activity escorting, but at a 40 percent decrease of available time for other tasks due to "watching out for/correcting Mama". Plus the inevitable Membership and Finance Committee meetings down the road to try to calm down the drama when she causes fires to erupt.

YMMV. Hornet's already saying no... "Oh God, no" actually! We should not try to recruit everyone...


V/r
Spam



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francisderosa16
Member

Posts: 59

« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2018, 09:07:13 PM »

Ya, for some reason my parents [one is a USAF LT. Col] think CAP is a bad influence in some ways, like doing push ups, my dad taught AFROTC and he wasn't allowed to drop for push ups and thinks this is hazing? AND my dad thinks your not allowed to yell in ROTC, CAP, and the Military, and yet you are, [in some cases "CAP PAMPHLET 52-12 Volume 1" ], I mean, why do you think this?

Well anyway, that's my experience and reply.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,133
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2018, 09:21:02 PM »

Cadet, I must ask, when you say "drop for push ups" do you mean, you and your unit are doing push ups as part of a regular PT event (which is part of not just CAP cadet programs but also USAF fitness), or do you mean something else?

If someone in CAP with you is "dropping" you or your peers to do push ups as punishment, that absolutely is hazing and is a violation of the Cadet Protection Policy, and needs to be reported up your chain of command immediately. If your local Squadron Commander is the one authorizing this (or is looking the other way) you need to go outside the unit and report this ASAP.

Regarding raised voices... you need to raise voices to be heard, but again if you're being yelled at in your face, or are receiving demeaning targeted language, that also may be a CAP policy violation.

Don't blow this off, please.

V/r
Spam

Updated:
As stated above, I recommend first trying to resolve issues locally. However, if needed, here's your Wing contact info:
http://www.mawg.cap.gov/


« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 09:28:25 PM by Spam » Logged
francisderosa16
Member

Posts: 59

« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2018, 08:28:27 PM »

When I say drop, I mean me and my flight due to one's misbehavior. One misbehaves, we all pay by push ups. And yell, it is not targeted, it's not profound language, it is a matter of motivation, for example, "Move! We all do PT as a UNIT! Not one by one!" -My Flight Commander. I'm sure the yelling part is fine, but I'm not sure about the push ups.
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francisderosa16
Member

Posts: 59

« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2018, 08:30:30 PM »

And yes, I contacted my unit XO, He said he is a little unsure and he said maybe this website could help the both of us, after I had told him about the CAPTalk conversation.
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jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,100

« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2018, 08:52:17 PM »

When I say drop, I mean me and my flight due to one's misbehavior. One misbehaves, we all pay by push ups.

That is PT as punishment, which is expressly forbidden. It doesn't matter if it's one individual doing it or the entire squadron, it is still a violation of CAP's cadet protection policy and should not be happening.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
arajca
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Posts: 4,300

« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2018, 09:06:42 PM »

Reference CAPR 60-1, Chap 3, para 3.4.
Quote
3.4. Progressive  Discipline. Commanders will respond to cadet misconduct through a system of   
progressive discipline that is positive, incremental, and seeks both accountability and behavioral change
from the cadet. To discipline is to teach self-control and that actions have consequences. CAP prohibits
corporal  punishment,  including  the  use  of  exercise  as  punishment.
  Suspension  and  revocation  of  flying 
privileges is implemented separately from progressive cadet discipline, per CAPR 70-1.

emphasis mine
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francisderosa16
Member

Posts: 59

« Reply #16 on: August 27, 2018, 10:19:44 AM »

Thank you for your feed back, I'm notifying my Squadron CO now.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,474

« Reply #17 on: August 27, 2018, 11:11:47 AM »


For his situation, that could be analogous to buying a Ferrari.  High performance, but high maintenance costs and you need to stay ahead of it at all times or it will run you off the road and kill you without warning.

Suddenly his unit has taken on that one member who provides an incidental increase in recruiting and activity escorting, but at a 40 percent decrease of available time for other tasks due to "watching out for/correcting Mama". Plus the inevitable Membership and Finance Committee meetings down the road to try to calm down the drama when she causes fires to erupt.

YMMV. Hornet's already saying no... "Oh God, no" actually! We should not try to recruit everyone...

V/r
Spam

This. Not every willing, high octane person is a positive asset. And not everyone who has suggestions intends to be a member.


CC had a chat with a colleague of his last week to get some ideas, which boiled down as a recommendation to talk to mom about nudging in and explaining some of the processes of CAP and why we do things a certain way, especially when it comes to uniform wear at activities. Mom actually approached CC at the last meeting, just as we were opening, to discuss something, and got the "not now" hand. She seemed pretty peeved, but that's just the nature of it, I suppose. I'm not sure as to the resolution of it later that meeting, but it was just another "Here we go again..."


Reference CAPR 60-1, Chap 3, para 3.4.
Quote
3.4. Progressive  Discipline. Commanders will respond to cadet misconduct through a system of   
progressive discipline that is positive, incremental, and seeks both accountability and behavioral change
from the cadet. To discipline is to teach self-control and that actions have consequences. CAP prohibits
corporal  punishment,  including  the  use  of  exercise  as  punishment.
  Suspension  and  revocation  of  flying 
privileges is implemented separately from progressive cadet discipline, per CAPR 70-1.

emphasis mine

This x10000.

Cadet, even if CAP allowed us to use PT as a disciplinary tool (it doesn't), that would be a completely inappropriate manner in which to address the problem of a parent. You don't punish the cadet for what mom does. Basically...I don't think this had anything to do with the subject.



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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,109

« Reply #18 on: August 27, 2018, 11:13:10 AM »

Thank you for your feed back, I'm notifying my Squadron CO now.

Presumably you are referring to the adult Unit CC and not your C/CC.

Make sure to quote the regulation(s) and if there is any response other then "Oh man, huge mistakes
have been made, this will never happen again..." then it's time to involve your parents and the next higher
HQ.  This is a very serious issue that violates a core tenant tenet of the CPT and isn't in any way new or gray.

Back to the OP, I wouldn't be so quick to try to involve helicopter parents as members unless it's in a role
that is clearly outside involvement with their cadet(s).  Parents who feel free to leverage personal relationships
and breach boundaries as non-members aren't likely to do so "less" as members with inside info and access.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2018, 03:21:30 PM by Eclipse » Logged


OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 456
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2018, 03:17:42 PM »

Reference CAPR 60-1, Chap 3, para 3.4.
Quote
3.4. Progressive  Discipline. Commanders will respond to cadet misconduct through a system of   
progressive discipline that is positive, incremental, and seeks both accountability and behavioral change
from the cadet. To discipline is to teach self-control and that actions have consequences. CAP prohibits
corporal  punishment,  including  the  use  of  exercise  as  punishment.
  Suspension  and  revocation  of  flying 
privileges is implemented separately from progressive cadet discipline, per CAPR 70-1.

emphasis mine
X 1000 agreed, this is such a major violation that it is shocking to me. If not addressed firmly and at once, the Wing CC needs to be advised.
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sarmed1
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 932

« Reply #20 on: August 27, 2018, 04:09:39 PM »

Reference CAPR 60-1, Chap 3, para 3.4.
Quote
3.4. Progressive  Discipline. Commanders will respond to cadet misconduct through a system of   
progressive discipline that is positive, incremental, and seeks both accountability and behavioral change
from the cadet. To discipline is to teach self-control and that actions have consequences. CAP prohibits
corporal  punishment,  including  the  use  of  exercise  as  punishment.
  Suspension  and  revocation  of  flying 
privileges is implemented separately from progressive cadet discipline, per CAPR 70-1.

emphasis mine
X 1000 agreed, this is such a major violation that it is shocking to me. If not addressed firmly and at once, the Wing CC needs to be advised.

I cant even remmeber how far back we go that this has been the policy.  It amazes me that this is even a practice that continues.  My memory is a little foggy,  has it been almost 20 years?

MK
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
MSG Mac
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Posts: 1,930
Unit: MER-MD-071

« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2018, 04:13:21 PM »

PT because someone makes a mistake of any type doesn't correct the mistake. Teach him/her what is wrong, how to fix it, and give them a deadline to show it was fixed.
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Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,109

« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2018, 04:22:42 PM »

I cant even remmeber how far back we go that this has been the policy.  It amazes me that this is even a practice that continues.  My memory is a little foggy,  has it been almost 20 years?

MK

It's amazingly common, and you see it a lot in the encampment environment. 

You'd think it was just the newbs, but in those cases it means that the leadership is either ignorant or willfully negligent.

There are also a >lot< of cadets who twist themselves into logic knots about "incentive PT" and "if everyone does it, etc."
in attempts to hardkewl either their unit or an activity to look more like some movie they have seen and / or give them
a sword to hold over their subordinates.

Again, this is where the adults are supposed to intervene immediately.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,474

« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2018, 04:32:39 PM »

Guys, regarding the PT thing... Let's not jump to conclusions just because a Cadet Airman made a random remark about it. There's no proof in that other than someone who has virtually no familiarity with the regulations making an off-the-cuff comment, which may very well be a complete misunderstanding (if not 'storytelling'). Not to discredit it or 'victim shame' here, but tread cautiously on that subject.

I wouldn't be so quick to try to involve helicopter parents as members unless it's in a role
that is clearly outside involvement with their cadet(s).  Parents who feel free to leverage personal relationships
and breach boundaries as non-members aren't likely to do so "less" as members with inside info and access.

Kind of my thought as well. Part of our parental recruiting process is to sit down and explain to new parents the fact that they need to minimize direct interaction with their cadet (during activities) unless it's an interface associated with their job (for example, our Cadet Operations Officer was the son of our Activities Officer...they're bound to run into each other). I had worked with a SM parent a while back that could not step away from being her son's mother during CAP activities, pulling him aside to correct him or remind him of what he's supposed to be doing. When it was addressed with her, it did not go very well. It's a shame, too, as she did a lot of great admin work at the unit, but she could not stop crossing that boundary.

This is a topic heavily discussed in TLC Intermediate, under the "My Cadet vs. Your Child" focus area. But it never quite delves into this scenario, more so focusing on dealing with parents when the cadet has a problem (e.g., disciplinary, sustained in grade, etc).

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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,474

« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2018, 04:37:22 PM »

I cant even remmeber how far back we go that this has been the policy.  It amazes me that this is even a practice that continues.  My memory is a little foggy,  has it been almost 20 years?

MK

It's amazingly common, and you see it a lot in the encampment environment. 

You'd think it was just the newbs, but in those cases it means that the leadership is either ignorant or willfully negligent.

There are also a >lot< of cadets who twist themselves into logic knots about "incentive PT" and "if everyone does it, etc."
in attempts to hardkewl either their unit or an activity to look more like some movie they have seen and / or give them
a sword to hold over their subordinates.

Again, this is where the adults are supposed to intervene immediately.

This is where you put PT on the weekly unit training schedule so that it's clear as to whether or not the activity is used to conduct a brief but intense fitness session or if this is an off-the-cuff disciplinary form of PT.

It's one thing for the staff to say "Hey, let's put in some push-ups on the schedule," or "We've got some free time; let's do 10 minutes of PT." It's another when the implication is "These guys screwed up; beat them." If that's the message that's being conveyed to cadets, that's an issue. But it doesn't automatically mean that's the case. It very well could be. But that's taking the C/Amn's word for it without any other indicator. I don't get overly excited by remarks like that.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,109

« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2018, 05:45:12 PM »

Agreed - when it's properly scheduled, the exception stands out.  If PT is the
"thinge de jure", as is often drill, when the meetings aren't proper planned and / or
someone shows up unprepared, that's where you find yourself.

For the most part, if you find yourself doing PT in blues or a field uniform, something's up.

PROTIP: NHQ provides tools such as "Squadron in a box" which detail how meetings should be
chopped up and how the expectations for a cadet  / composite squadron should be spread over
a recurring 13-week schedule.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/library/squadron-training-plans

It's handy for everyone, but a must-read for new CC's and staff.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,474

« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2018, 10:18:47 AM »

Agreed - when it's properly scheduled, the exception stands out.  If PT is the
"thinge de jure", as is often drill, when the meetings aren't proper planned and / or
someone shows up unprepared, that's where you find yourself.

For the most part, if you find yourself doing PT in blues or a field uniform, something's up.

PROTIP: NHQ provides tools such as "Squadron in a box" which detail how meetings should be
chopped up and how the expectations for a cadet  / composite squadron should be spread over
a recurring 13-week schedule.

https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/programs/cadets/library/squadron-training-plans

It's handy for everyone, but a must-read for new CC's and staff.

Hence my emphasis: "Take TLC, guys!"

As someone who has taught TLC Basic and TLC Intermediate, I have yet to see a unit commander sitting in the classroom. I know they're out there, but none that I've had yet.

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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,133
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2018, 10:32:22 AM »



We make TLC pretty much mandatory for commanders. In the ones ive taught ive had a bunch over the past couple of years... Including a wing cc.

Trying to lead turn on the problems not react to them... Boyd / OODA loop style...



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