Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
September 21, 2018, 09:57:39 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
Гугл переводчик and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15] 16 17 Print
Author Topic: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations  (Read 22556 times)
DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 172

« Reply #280 on: September 12, 2018, 05:00:34 PM »

Take off all 3 of those shoulder patches and continue to enforce weight & grooming and I'm okay with it for Cadets. Especially remove that subdued by all means, but clean it up and I would support it.

Every year that goes by, approaching my fourth decade in and the more posers I see, I grow more convinced that Air Force Style should be discontinued for adult members.

Vr
Spam

Only reason the subdued is on that top is because I don't have a R-Side flag. I agree on that part. I also agree with enforcing weight standards for AF-style uniforms. I don't have a problem with full color patches. CAP has had that on the books for as long as I can remember. I can't say I've seen posers though in the 15 years I've been in CAP unless you count people trying to pose as actual military. Not sure how that relates to us though.

I can say I've only been asked a hand full of times "what branch are you in?" and respond with "I'm in Civil Air Patrol, it's the civilian volunteer auxiliary of the Air Force, but we wear a similar uniform." and usually that garners a "Well thank you for that volunteer service!" and I always respond "Well thank you for your support!" Interaction done and everyone's happy. If they start asking more questions about the program, I can go on for a while longer.

I'm one that can and does wear the AF-style and Corporates depending on the setting I'm in. If I'm at a CAP event where utilities work, usually ABU's.

Even been to a few fema classes in ABU's but the entire group of CAP members was wearing the same uniform and all looked sharp. I think we had 6-8 and we were about 20% of the class. They are used to it though because we have a lot of military support and presence at our EOC's in the county, and they're well aware of all the help CAP can provide. We get calls for assistance pretty regularly.

Cadets are doing Blues tonight, but I'll be in the background working a lot of other things so the CWU is a good option for me. I do wear the same uniform as the cadets most of the time though to set the example on wearing the uniform properly. Blousing, shined/clean boots, all buttons buttoned, clean and serviceable appearance, hair in regs and within weight standards.

Logged
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.

Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 807
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #281 on: September 13, 2018, 03:16:11 AM »

Please... not “posers,” who are people who pose for photos, paintings, sketches or sculptures.

The word everybody seems to need is “poseurs.”




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Logged
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,559

« Reply #282 on: September 13, 2018, 06:29:12 AM »

Please... not “posers,” who are people who pose for photos, paintings, sketches or sculptures.

The word everybody seems to need is “poseurs.”




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Does "fakers" work?  :D


See the same:


This type of badge wear modification could be done for an OCP-style corporate top as well like the TRU from Truspec.
I don't care for the patch with badges on it. Granted, the guy in the lower picture is a General, and they have a lot of latitude with what they're allowed to do with their uniforms, but I don't think it looks right, and would not be for it for CAP.

I am a bit stuck when it comes to allowances for badges for CAP. Done a quick search, and don't see anything permitting pin on badges for the Air Force, so I imagine that AF criteria is sew on only. Don't think the Air Force is allowing sewn on badges, but velcroed tapes and rank. (I know the Army requires that if badges are sewn on, tapes and rank are required to be sewn as well.)

Seems like requiring tapes/rank to be sewn on when badges are is the way to go. 

The blue tape/rank is growing on me, slowly. Don't think the colors are complementary, but I could live with it. I might still order some tan or khaki ones for mockup, I just want to see how it looks.

Bright color patches actually look pretty good to me. (And would be a lot easier to use. Some adhesive backed Velcro would have you good to go in just a few minutes.)

Logged
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 335

« Reply #283 on: September 13, 2018, 08:45:07 AM »

I dig it a lot. Just a full color flag or no flag and continue pinning on cadet enlisted rank on the collar.

Port it over to a new dark blue corporate field uniform as well.
Logged
Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 133

« Reply #284 on: September 13, 2018, 10:56:01 AM »

This type of badge wear modification could be done for an OCP-style corporate top as well like the TRU from Truspec. I don't care for the patch with badges on it. Granted, the guy in the lower picture is a General, and they have a lot of latitude with what they're allowed to do with their uniforms, but I don't think it looks right, and would not be for it for CAP.

I am a bit stuck when it comes to allowances for badges for CAP. Done a quick search, and don't see anything permitting pin on badges for the Air Force, so I imagine that AF criteria is sew on only. Don't think the Air Force is allowing sewn on badges, but velcroed tapes and rank. (I know the Army requires that if badges are sewn on, tapes and rank are required to be sewn as well.)

Seems like requiring tapes/rank to be sewn on when badges are is the way to go.  The blue tape/rank is growing on me, slowly. Don't think the colors are complementary, but I could live with it. I might still order some tan or khaki ones for mockup, I just want to see how it looks. Bright color patches actually look pretty good to me. (And would be a lot easier to use. Some adhesive backed Velcro would have you good to go in just a few minutes.)

When we finally get to this point the USAF method will be well established - and we will do the same thing, just in full color.

If everything on the uniform is on with Velcro, the badges would have to be too, and this does seem to be the logical way to do it, since the flight badge Velcro size is already well established.

While you can sew two regular badges on a flight badge rectangle piece yourself, It not much of a stretch to assume Vanguard would start selling the combination badge - and then national saying its all you can use.
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,402

« Reply #285 on: September 13, 2018, 11:50:53 AM »

Take off all 3 of those shoulder patches and continue to enforce weight & grooming and I'm okay with it for Cadets. Especially remove that subdued by all means, but clean it up and I would support it.

Every year that goes by, approaching my fourth decade in and the more posers I see, I grow more convinced that Air Force Style should be discontinued for adult members.

Vr
Spam

Only reason the subdued is on that top is because I don't have a R-Side flag. I agree on that part. I also agree with enforcing weight standards for AF-style uniforms. I don't have a problem with full color patches. CAP has had that on the books for as long as I can remember. I can't say I've seen posers though in the 15 years I've been in CAP unless you count people trying to pose as actual military. Not sure how that relates to us though.

I can say I've only been asked a hand full of times "what branch are you in?" and respond with "I'm in Civil Air Patrol, it's the civilian volunteer auxiliary of the Air Force, but we wear a similar uniform." and usually that garners a "Well thank you for that volunteer service!" and I always respond "Well thank you for your support!" Interaction done and everyone's happy. If they start asking more questions about the program, I can go on for a while longer.

I'm one that can and does wear the AF-style and Corporates depending on the setting I'm in. If I'm at a CAP event where utilities work, usually ABU's.

Not sure that I've seen a lot of "call me military" guys. I've seen some that I can make that accusation toward, but maybe not frequently enough to call it an issue. More so, it's the people who weigh 250-lbs that wear sage flight suits and ABUs that really irk me. You know you're clearly out of standards. There's no hiding it. Honestly, it's more their commanders' fault than their own at that point.

Quote
Cadets are doing Blues tonight, but I'll be in the background working a lot of other things so the CWU is a good option for me. I do wear the same uniform as the cadets most of the time though to set the example on wearing the uniform properly. Blousing, shined/clean boots, all buttons buttoned, clean and serviceable appearance, hair in regs and within weight standards.

I generally wear the Air Force-style because of the cadets. I wear what they are required to wear. It's a much easier learning tool for them to understand rank insignia and appearance when we're in the same outfit. I had a cadet from another unit once ask me what my insignia was (granted, he was a C/SSgt...and I poked at that a bit when he didn't recognize my grade on ABUs). He said "I've never seen it before on a uniform. Everyone at my unit always wears polos." Fair enough. It's taught; it's not retained.

As someone who's 5 o'clock shadow grows in by 1500, I'm a stickler for shaving and haircuts. It's a real peeve of mine. But I've had that chat with cadets before: "Hey, look, man. I'm right there with ya. I've got to run home at lunch and shave for CAP tonight." It's an example I try to set. I've shown up before going "I shaved this morning, but I think it's too long right now." Asked my NCO. He says it's fine. I go back in the bathroom. "Nope, going back to civies." ... "No uniform tonight, Sir?" "Nah, I needed a shave." As someone who buzzes their head every other day, you'll never catch me out of compliance on that.

It's a training tool for me, nothing else. I have absolutely no issue wearing a 'civilian-appearing/corporate' uniform. But around cadets, I'm upholding that cultural environment. It just works for me, and that's the only way I know how to do it. It may work totally different for others. So to be clear: whatever uniform you're in, just wear it properly and set the example.

Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,402

« Reply #286 on: September 13, 2018, 11:52:10 AM »

To add---

That OCP with the CAP tapes actually doesn't look too bad. It's probably the color combinations for me that make it a bit more matching than the fairly light ABUs.

The bright patches on the OCP don't look good in the least. Almost cartoon-like.
Logged
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,209

« Reply #287 on: September 13, 2018, 11:59:54 AM »



Every year that goes by, approaching my fourth decade in and the more posers I see, I grow more convinced that Air Force Style should be discontinued for adult members.

Vr
Spam

You must have a different crowd down there in Georgia. Because we seem to have very little problem with "posers" out here in the Pacific Region.
People who don't meet the height/weight standards still trying to wear AF style uniforms yes, but no posers.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,948

« Reply #288 on: September 13, 2018, 12:02:15 PM »

People who don't meet the height/weight standards still trying to wear AF style uniforms yes, but no posers.

And the difference between those two things is?
Logged


TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,402

« Reply #289 on: September 13, 2018, 12:08:19 PM »

People who don't meet the height/weight standards still trying to wear AF style uniforms yes, but no posers.

And the difference between those two things is?

I think intent. This is one of those "perception is reality" things. I dunno. Maybe I'm making excuses.

There are a few people I know of that are plastered all over social media who are, without even having to guess, outside of standards. I mean some fat freaking people. But it's the climate of their units. The Lt Col is too fat, so that makes it okay for the Captain, which makes it okay for cadets over 18. Even corporate uniforms can be worn in abysmal fashion by some people (greasy shirts, tears, looking like they haven't showered or done laundry in a month).

Those people are definitely out there.

I think it's less of them being posers, and more of it being normal for them.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,948

« Reply #290 on: September 13, 2018, 12:11:35 PM »

That doesn't make them "not posers".

If you're wearing a uniform, with intent to indicate actual affiliation, that you know you're not
authorized to wear, that's pretty much the definition of "poser".

Doesn't matter whether that's an LEO, FD, CAP, or astronaut.
Logged


DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 172

« Reply #291 on: September 13, 2018, 02:14:57 PM »

That doesn't make them "not posers".

If you're wearing a uniform, with intent to indicate actual affiliation, that you know you're not
authorized to wear, that's pretty much the definition of "poser".

Doesn't matter whether that's an LEO, FD, CAP, or astronaut.

And really that falls into a training issue. Some commanders may have a hard time addressing that to people, and you could argue if that person should command if they can't make those hard talks, but it's gotta be enforced and taught by our leaders for it to work.

A good example is a conversation I had with another senior recently regarding using a cadets first, last name, or simply calling them cadet. Younger cadets see it and emulate it without realizing that's not how junior cadets are supposed to talk to senior cadets. You'd have C/A1C's calling a C/Maj "Cadet" or "Last Name". So although yes maybe its acceptable for senior command staff to address cadets by "cadet" or other appropriate titles, we should use the ranks the same as the other cadets to set the example. It irks ME when a senior is discussing talking with another senior member to a cadet and says "So I want you to go speak to Bill about xyz..."

Same goes for uniforms, It's gotta be taught and enforced by our leaders and the example needs to be set by those folks. That goes for Squadron commanders and up as to where the buck stops, but every member is responsible for making sure it's adhered to.
Logged
Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.

Nick
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 518
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #292 on: September 13, 2018, 04:08:15 PM »

Done a quick search, and don't see anything permitting pin on badges for the Air Force, so I imagine that AF criteria is sew on only. Don't think the Air Force is allowing sewn on badges, but velcroed tapes and rank.

AF does not permit pin on badges. They mirror the Army on Velcro/sew-on — either one but all must be the same (except for the sleeves).
Logged
Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy
hamburgee
Member

Posts: 83

« Reply #293 on: September 13, 2018, 08:24:06 PM »

Let me just add that the Army is wearing full-color flag on the shoulder... In my opinion, it'd be bad to take away from a distinct part of the AF OCP-ACU by completely removing the flag... Honestly, the subdued flag won't hurt anyone if you ask me.
Logged
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #294 on: September 14, 2018, 12:41:26 AM »


Hi Hamburgee. Allow me to respond why not the flag (and so many other things):


A/ Cost argument.
It hurts every cadet of modest means who has to pay that six dollars more. I have many cadets in my units that are on school lunch programs and can't afford boots or shirts. Every useless nice to have cool thing we propose adding, raises barriers to entry for poor kids. Every time someone lobbies for making Wing (or other) patches mandatory because of looks, or a desire to collect/trade patches, or who changes a uniform item that was just changed a few years ago, incurs a cost for those members. Therefore - think about our customers (all of them) before making uniform decisions. The flag doesn't pass this "need" test.

B/ Customer argument.
The Army is not our customer. Neither is the Navy. Neither are the Marines. If the USAF makes the decision to wear the flag, then and only then should we consider the ramifications.

C/ Logical mission need argument.
Subdued patches were introduced for lower visibility, specifically in combat areas. The American flag was introduced years ago to denote US affiliation of our troops overseas during operations with allied or coalition troops. Since CAP does not operate in OCONUS combat zones, and does not operate in combat with foreigners, we have zero mission need for the US Flag.

D/ "Distinctiveness" argument.
When CAP is mandated to have visibly distinct differences from the USAF uniform, it makes zero sense to consider adopting the same subdued flag patch, which is specifically designed to only be seen at close range. Especially since you use the term "distinct part", it argues AGAINST the flag.



It makes zero sense from all these perspectives to mandate wear of the flag (let alone the subdued flag) unless ones main motivation is to be a costumer who is pretending to be a deployed soldier.

Pivoting to the larger uniform issue, all these arguments apply more or less to every uniform item. Each item needs to "buy its way onto the uniform". We've seen so many wacky uniform ideas on this forum which are purely emotional and personally based, and don't follow a logical analytical approach (suggestions to adopt East German border guard outfits spring to mind). I feel that we have to respectfully stand up for a logical approach which is proactive, and not reactive, and considers our least advantaged members first.  I will hold out hope that someone at a national level is pursuing a systematic approach towards a uniform "road map" (but I'm really not holding my breath).


V/r
Spam

Logged
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #295 on: September 14, 2018, 01:01:16 AM »

People who don't meet the height/weight standards still trying to wear AF style uniforms yes, but no posers.

And the difference between those two things is?

I think intent. This is one of those "perception is reality" things. I dunno. Maybe I'm making excuses.

There are a few people I know of that are plastered all over social media who are, without even having to guess, outside of standards. I mean some fat freaking people. But it's the climate of their units. The Lt Col is too fat, so that makes it okay for the Captain, which makes it okay for cadets over 18. Even corporate uniforms can be worn in abysmal fashion by some people (greasy shirts, tears, looking like they haven't showered or done laundry in a month).

Those people are definitely out there.

I think it's less of them being posers, and more of it being normal for them.


I do not care what their "normal" is. I really don't care about their personal normal, if their poor attitude correlates with attitudes towards other CAP regulations than the uniform one (e.g. flight safety regs).

It is currently one of my job assignments to speak with those Lt Colonels and correct their "intent" or "perception" to reality and to the uniform standards. Also to ensure that our Group/CCs are checking their subordinates, and so on... I've had some terse conversations with several Field grade officers over the last year and a half, resulting in some departures (which is fine with me). I have a discussion pending with one unit commander (thanks for the reminder, actually).

That means they must accept a new "normal", or get out of CAP, period. Its not personal, but it is reality.


V/r
Spam

PS I am a "fat freaking" six foot four guy myself, these days. I hung up the USAF style a while back. Peoples personal fitness and shapes, just as their other preferences, are not my business - only reg adherence/compliance is, because this is a leading indicator of hazardous attitudes elsewhere.


Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,402

« Reply #296 on: September 14, 2018, 10:41:11 AM »

^ Absolutely with you on everything in the last two posts.

I'm purely speaking from a philosophical standpoint to note intent, not compliance. Compliance has no regard for the reason as to why you're out of compliance. The intent is where we have to look at how it gets corrected. Someone who doesn't know or is misinformed is going to be treated far differently than someone who does know and doesn't care. A person operating under ignorance is a hazard because they don't pay attention to detail. A person operating under negligence is a hazard because they don't appreciate what those details offer.

I'm one that walks around at CAP activities and thinks "How does your unit operate like this? It's not a difficult thing to 'get.'" I follow a lot of CAP units on social media, and see a lot of photos with pretty obvious discrepancies. They go uncorrected by their local commanders well up the chain. Some people just don't care enough about it. What does that tell you?
Logged
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,124
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #297 on: September 14, 2018, 11:26:02 AM »

Well, it could tell me several things, but it first prompts me to ask some concrete questions before going "off" on someone:


One, does the higher level command team even do social media (I do not, generally, because of work. CAP Talk is my only social media, for better or for worse). So, access may be an issue. See below for an option.


Two, does the higher commander have the bandwidth to regularly browse through all his/her subordinate unit websites. When you have a couple of dozen subordinate units packing photos and videos (some with two or even three different web sites) that's a lot of content to monitor. When commanders also have to deal with everything from ops, to reviewing personnel and admin, safety, and of course finance matters, that sort of thing gets dropped as low priority. I suppose a higher commander could delegate "uniform monitor" powers to the PAO shop... which would be logical, right? Have the PA refer (to use the IG term) any blatant violations for command attention.


Three, does the Wing include this topic in UCCs (Unit Commanders Courses) and does the commander emphasize adherence regularly (by example, by messages, by verbal/nonverbals including at face to face events). I have had communications from Captalk members who have never even seen a UCC put on in their Wing (where we try to do at least one and now possibly two a year, here). In short: effective education is better than ignorance.  I completely agree with you about ignorance being a contributor to hazard situations - perhaps not in terms of a uniform, but in terms of their being a leading indicator of across the board training issues and possibly hazardous attitude issues.


Four: I'm sure there are many other factors, but haven't the time at the moment...


V/r
Spam

Logged
shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 961
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #298 on: September 14, 2018, 12:23:20 PM »

Just to throw this out there for comparison, The Army authorizes the Velcro nametape and US ARMY Tape and rank to be Velcro-ed on or sewn on.

Pin-on Badges are worn with Velcro tapes, if the tapes are sewn on, badges must be too. No mixing and matching.

Flag patch is full color in garrison and CONUS and can be subdued when deployed.

Full color patches are not normally worn but can be worn for parades and other such ceremonies. I've seen that done once since the OCP's came out Berets were worn too as opposed to the Patrol Cap.

The one or two Air Force members I've seen in OCPs were attached to Army units and they were wearing their flags full color and Army unit patches so I can't speak to that being the norm or if a subdued flag is for the Air Force.

I don't think the CAP tapes look bad at all on OCP.
Logged
Joseph J. Clune
Major (Promotable), Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,559

« Reply #299 on: September 14, 2018, 09:42:18 PM »

Done a quick search, and don't see anything permitting pin on badges for the Air Force, so I imagine that AF criteria is sew on only. Don't think the Air Force is allowing sewn on badges, but velcroed tapes and rank.

AF does not permit pin on badges. They mirror the Army on Velcro/sew-on — either one but all must be the same (except for the sleeves).

So, basically, if you want to wear your badges, you've got to sew on tapes/rank.

We'll probably see a lot of airman sewing everything on. I kinda prefer to see the badges worn, it tells me what the person does.

Just to throw this out there for comparison, The Army authorizes the Velcro nametape and US ARMY Tape and rank to be Velcro-ed on or sewn on.

Pin-on Badges are worn with Velcro tapes, if the tapes are sewn on, badges must be too. No mixing and matching.

Per DA Pam 670-1, 25 May 2017, page 7, para 4-8.e., line 7: "Soldiers may wear pin-on badges with sewn on name tape, U.S. Army tape, and grade insignia."
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 13 14 [15] 16 17 Print 
CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.769 seconds with 26 queries.
click here to email me