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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
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Author Topic: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations  (Read 23607 times)
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,471

« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2018, 04:16:05 PM »

I would consider that to be under:
Quote
Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank.

and

Quote
(Add) 5.4.4.2.1. When authorized and worn, subdued spice brown color criteria duty identifier tabs and functional badges (e.g. Inspector General, Security Forces, Fire Fighters, Missile Operations) will be centered at the top of the velcro area.
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DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 181

« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2018, 04:32:05 PM »

It specifically says you can use either. You just need to be consistent and do the same with all.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf

Quote
(Add) 5.4. Accoutrements. Airmen will wear a basic configuration until organizational patches
and badges are developed or reconfigured. Organizations are required to contact The Institute of
Heraldry TIOH) for assistance on development or reconfiguration of organizational patches and
badges (see paragraph 10.8 ). Airmen may sew-on or use velcro backing for USAF tape, name
tape, and rank.
Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not
authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only velcro patches are
authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.

The bold is what I'm looking at, it doesn't mention the occupational/aeronautical badges. Does that include them?

(Add) 5.4.3.1. Occupational badges may be worn centered inch above the USAF tape using
spice brown embroidery on the OCP background. A maximum of two badges may be worn.

Doesn't say I'm afraid on velcro/sew-on for the badges but it seems that being consistent with everything would be a solid bet.
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I_Am_Twigs
Member

Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2018, 04:51:05 PM »

It specifically says you can use either. You just need to be consistent and do the same with all.

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a1/publication/afi36-2903/afi36-2903.pdf

Quote
(Add) 5.4. Accoutrements. Airmen will wear a basic configuration until organizational patches
and badges are developed or reconfigured. Organizations are required to contact The Institute of
Heraldry TIOH) for assistance on development or reconfiguration of organizational patches and
badges (see paragraph 10.8 ). Airmen may sew-on or use velcro backing for USAF tape, name
tape, and rank.
Tapes and rank must be either all sewn-on or all velcro; Airmen are not
authorized to mix sew-on and velcro tapes or rank. [NOTE: only velcro patches are
authorized on the left and right sleeves of the OCP coat.

The bold is what I'm looking at, it doesn't mention the occupational/aeronautical badges. Does that include them?

(Add) 5.4.3.1. Occupational badges may be worn centered inch above the USAF tape using
spice brown embroidery on the OCP background. A maximum of two badges may be worn.

Doesn't say I'm afraid on velcro/sew-on for the badges but it seems that being consistent with everything would be a solid bet.

I guess that'd make sense, still think I'll sew them on instead if/when we get them.
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
3rd Encampment 2018
C/2nd Lt, CAP
 
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,101

« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2018, 05:35:54 PM »

Thinking cadets are going to share uniforms more because they can swap nametapes
is optimistic at best. It's not going to happen on any scale that justifies velcro, per se.

It also doesn't reduce the sewing necessary on a given field uniform, in fact it
actually increases the sewing required on initial uniforms because, at least for the badges
you have to sew the hook and the loops.

Subsequent badge changes, still require sewing the hook on the insignia, which may, or may not
be easier depending on what kind of machine you have (if you have one at all).

The only real advantage would be if VG would sell pre-sewn velcro everything, in which case you're probably going to be
paying $8 for a cloth set of wings.

At least if the shirts have a grade tab, that's one place with regular sewing that could be eliminated,
but in that case, just stay with the metal for the distinction - that's a lot of pins sitting in "take one / put one"
bins all over the country, not to mention CAP having to buy out the current metal stock to get VG to make cloth.
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DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 181

« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2018, 06:04:47 PM »

Thinking cadets are going to share uniforms more because they can swap nametapes
is optimistic at best. It's not going to happen on any scale that justifies velcro, per se.

It also doesn't reduce the sewing necessary on a given field uniform, in fact it
actually increases the sewing required on initial uniforms because, at least for the badges
you have to sew the hook and the loops.

Subsequent badge changes, still require sewing the hook on the insignia, which may, or may not
be easier depending on what kind of machine you have (if you have one at all).

The only real advantage would be if VG would sell pre-sewn velcro everything, in which case you're probably going to be
paying $8 for a cloth set of wings.

At least if the shirts have a grade tab, that's one place with regular sewing that could be eliminated,
but in that case, just stay with the metal for the distinction - that's a lot of pins sitting in "take one / put one"
bins all over the country, not to mention CAP having to buy out the current metal stock to get VG to make cloth.

It's not so much about cadets sharing uniforms. I know many of the squadrons in my area has some surplus of uniforms, and it's easy to fit a cadet into them and have them just buy their tapes and slap them on. I've found sometimes it takes a while to get cadets to get their tapes sewn on (which is why I have been offering to do it for my local squadron for about the last 2 years for free.) You could even have VG put a "Cadet ABU Start Kit" on for sale with the cap tape, the blank rank square and nametape.

I don't see it increasing the sewing. I'm seeing us going to using the same tapes currently out there for the fleece for both rank and name / cap tape. Buy a single blank rank patch for NCO's and then the cadet officers simply use the ones for the fleece as well. Slap it on and done. I don't really see a reason to get rid of the metal rank for C/NCO's
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ZigZag911
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,986

« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2018, 07:44:37 PM »

Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
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Luis R. Ramos
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,684

« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2018, 07:53:08 PM »

Wearing camos for civilian rescue is as ridiculous as it was to wear khaki in the 40's, blue in the 50's, and green in the 60's for civilian search and rescue.

All those colors blend in terrain as well. That is why the military wore them in the first place in the time mentioned. Yet it was done for the CAP / Military connection.

And I have not heard there were concerns in that time.


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Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer
I_Am_Twigs
Member

Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2018, 08:10:04 PM »

Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!

That my friend is why a safety vest is required for SAR missions. Why have a camo uniform when all you're going to do is put bright colors over it? Well those bright colors are only when you go on SAR missions, and when you're at normal meetings or recruiting events it looks "cool" and sparks interest in people, therefore it can be a recruiting tool.
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
3rd Encampment 2018
C/2nd Lt, CAP
 
PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,260

« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2018, 09:00:51 PM »

It's amazing how people ALWAYS forget about the requirement for the orange vests during ES and ES training activities.
Especially when they're trying to make an argument against wearing some uniform.
And the requirement has only been around for about 30 years or so.
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I_Am_Twigs
Member

Posts: 96
Unit: RMR-ID-069

« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2018, 11:04:29 AM »

Ranger tabs can probably come back too, slap it on one of the sleeve pockets or something.

If that happens I know quite a few people would be happy  :o
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Mitchell #68874
1st Encampment 2016 
2nd Encampment 2017
3rd Encampment 2018
C/2nd Lt, CAP
 
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,471

« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2018, 11:12:54 AM »

therefore it can be a recruiting tool.

That's essentially it.
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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 149

« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2018, 12:38:38 PM »

Wouldn't the occupational/aviation badges still be sewn on?

Over Nametapes & branch tapes that are on with Velcro?  Maybe if you took off the Velcro and sewed the tapes on so it was consistent.

What I was suggesting is that the former pocket patches could be moved to the lower part of those huge sleeve velcros, and the current shoulder patch could still be on there as well.  Putting patches on OCP pockets doesn't look right, at least to me.

Incidentally - the patches normally covered up by the required orange safety vest when in the field - would still be visible.
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hamburgee
Member

Posts: 87

« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2018, 03:44:51 PM »

-snip-
Quote
(Add) 5.4.4.2.1. When authorized and worn, subdued spice brown color criteria duty identifier tabs and functional badges (e.g. Inspector General, Security Forces, Fire Fighters, Missile Operations) will be centered at the top of the velcro area.
This is not correct - 5.4.4.2.1. refers to velcro labels on the sleeve of the coat that say "SF," etc.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 455
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #33 on: August 07, 2018, 06:52:43 PM »

Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)
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Dwight Dutton
Forum Regular

Posts: 149

« Reply #34 on: August 07, 2018, 06:55:45 PM »

Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)
They *briefly* had grey uniforms in the late 1940's that actually made sense on a ship, but they ended that fast
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,426
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #35 on: August 08, 2018, 06:02:48 AM »

Just for the record, and recognizing and respecting that many members, especially cadets, really like wearing the BDU/ABU and other versions permitted over the years, nevertheless I can't let this opportunity pass to note yet again how utterly ridiculous it is for an organization with a civilian SAR mission to use camouflage uniforms!
Sort of like the Navy adopting blue battle dress to blend in with the ocean. :)
WRT blending with the ocean, the olde blue dungarees weren't any better. If you weren't wearing something brightly colored or reflective, or a light, you were pretty hard to find in the ocean.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
GroundHawg
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 594

« Reply #36 on: August 08, 2018, 09:30:03 AM »

Honestly, the biggest issue I have with this is that you are using a Pilot G2 in .5 instead of 1.0.... how can stand that tiny fine tip?! I mean I can almost understand a .7 but a .5 is just ridiculous!
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chuckmilam
Forum Regular

Posts: 123
Unit: GLR-KY-216

« Reply #37 on: August 08, 2018, 11:27:06 AM »

I'm gazing fondly at my Pilot G2 0.38 right now. 
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DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 181

« Reply #38 on: August 08, 2018, 12:11:34 PM »

I'm really not so concerned with the pattern, it could be navy blue for all I care (although I do like the pattern and I have a ton of other unrelated to CAP gear in multicam which is similar).

What I like, and after speaking with a former CENTCOM Lt Col who's also a current member who had similar feelings, the OCP has the pockets in the right places, they use the right material so it's comfy and won't burn you out in the heat, the pockets are he right size, the sizing options are better etc. It's everything that the Air Force wanted from the start, but politics and a host of other reasons put them and by default US into ABU's.

I never used the lower pockets on the BDU/ABU jacket, but I really see myself using the shoulder pockets on missions where I've got all my other gear on. You can throw a GPS, cell phone, maps, writing materials like a notebook or even ELT shut-off notices.
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DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 181

« Reply #39 on: August 08, 2018, 12:35:51 PM »

I'm gazing fondly at my Pilot G2 0.38 right now.

You sir, are living in 3018.  8) 8) 8)
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
 


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