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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
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Author Topic: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations  (Read 25221 times)
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,508
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #320 on: September 15, 2018, 05:45:58 PM »

I am not against military uniform discussions, as this provides knowledge that others may need.

However many such discussions evolve into "CAP should wear boots of the same color and type that Ma Blue does because..." or "CAP should wear badges in same color / types that Ma Blue uses because…"

Follow the same example that the branches use. The Air Force, Marines, Army, and Navy use different uniforms, different patches, different insignia.

Therefore CAP and Air Force should be allowed different uniforms.

Saying that CAP and Air Force should wear the same uniform sounds like "I want to be in the CAP for the uniform."

Have you ever checked out the Sea Cadet uniforms? They look amazingly like the stuff I wore on active duty 30 years ago. The differences - patches and rank insignia. Gee, that sounds pretty much like what we have here in CAP.


I think you should give this a rest for a few hours, and get closer to the "two ears, one mouth" method.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 181

« Reply #321 on: September 15, 2018, 06:08:03 PM »

"16 pages..." My thoughts exactly. And when or if CAP NHQ says "you can," there will be 32 pages on why did CAP approve so and so when members expressly stated they did not want this or that, and preferred that or this.


 >:D

People have their opinions on things, and if they don't get it the way they'd like, they do have the right to ask questions, even if they don't like the answer. An answer you don't like is still an answer, and unless the answer doesn't make sense, many people will let it go.

I think a lot of CAP personnel would like some input on many things in CAP. Part of personal investment in the organization, which results in pride in the organization because they helped shape it. The Air Force takes input on it's own uniforms,  and many airmen have submitted ideas that got approved. It's nothing unprecedented when it comes to CAP.

When it comes to CAP, the primary exposure that results in the public at large learning of CAP is their seeing the uniform. It gets teens and young people interested. Members want the uniform to look good, so they suggest their ideas.

There are always different ideas, so sometimes the discussion results in compromises or even changes in viewpoints. The end result is people taking pride in possibly having shaped their organization, even if their idea isn't adopted.

I concur with these thoughts. I know it seems like we talk about it a lot on this forum... but this is the Uniform & Awards section of CAPTALK after all...

I've been taking everyone constructive input and developing a plan of action and a policy request letter which I'll send up the chain... Now that may result in nothing, it may result in change but I'd like to think that those in higher positions are capable of looking at ideas and evaluating whether they are good for implementation or not.
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Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.

DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 181

« Reply #322 on: September 15, 2018, 06:12:17 PM »

There are some things that serve no purpose discussing publicly. Instead they should write the appropriate forum.

Don't like colored patches? Write to the National Uniform Committee.
Like colored patches? Write NUC.

Don't like the Flag? Like the Flag? Write NUC.

Don't like black boots? Prefer green boots? Write NUC.

NUC is the only forum after the USAF directs it to direct uniform use. 

In any event, starting a public discussion 5 years before implementation is a waste of time.

Telling me to "ignore the thread" does not solve the problem because when I start CAPTalk this thread is highlighted as "not read."

And before you tell me you have a right to post this and I cannot say anything, I also have the same rights to disagree with this too early discussion.

Well, as I said, that's exactly what I'm going to do. I made this to talk about ideas and explore others. To get feedback from someone other than just those close to me that think like me. Obviously there are many on this forum that have widely varied views from me on this topic and I think that's GREAT. I need that. It levels things out and keeps me grounded about ideas. There have been a lot of things brought up which since they were talked about here, I can address them in my memo to the NUC.

So I agree, if you want changes made, write the NUC through your chain. If you are a cadet, you know what's a great way to get changes made? CAC. That's what I did years ago as a member of MS Wing CAC and we made some great policy changes for cadets, and only 1 or 2 of them were uniform related.
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Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.

TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,571

« Reply #323 on: September 17, 2018, 10:41:20 AM »

I am not against military uniform discussions, as this provides knowledge that others may need.

However many such discussions evolve into "CAP should wear boots of the same color and type that Ma Blue does because..." or "CAP should wear badges in same color / types that Ma Blue uses because…"

Follow the same example that the branches use. The Air Force, Marines, Army, and Navy use different uniforms, different patches, different insignia.

Therefore CAP and Air Force should be allowed different uniforms.

Saying that CAP and Air Force should wear the same uniform sounds like "I want to be in the CAP for the uniform."

Yup.

If the uniforms are the same because the Air Force said "We would like our Auxiliary to be in the same/similar uniform," no issue at all.

I revert right back to my previous statement: The CAP ABU is a CAP uniform, not an Air Force uniform. Yes, the Air Force dictates certain protocols, and they sign the paperwork authorizing the wear of their uniform but in distinction. But it's a CAP uniform. It has CAP labels, CAP insignia, and CAP badges. No where on the uniform does it say anything about Air Force (I yield to the 'U.S. Air Force Auxiliary' on the Blues nameplate.

We should be treating these uniforms as CAP uniforms but with the same self-respect and appearance standards as the Air Force uniform, with the full understanding that it is not the Air Force's uniform. We are not in the Air Force (when serving in CAP, that is). The idea that "the Air Force wears it, so we should" is totally moot when it comes to this discussion. And I don't know why it keeps getting recycled.

If I have to hear one more person in a classroom say "When we wear this uniform, we represent the United States Air Force." No, we don't.
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shuman14
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 982
Unit: NHQ-996

« Reply #324 on: September 17, 2018, 12:27:16 PM »

Quote
Per DA Pam 670-1, 25 May 2017, page 7, para 4-8.e., line 7: "Soldiers may wear pin-on badges with sewn on name tape, U.S. Army tape, and grade insignia."

Well color me embarrassed, I've never seen that done. Everything is either sewn on or Velcro and pinned on. I've never seen it mixed like that.
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Joseph J. Clune
Major (Promotable), Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 -1998, 2000 - Present     CAP (National Patron) 2013 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000       USCGAux: 2004 - Present
Nick
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 519
Unit: SWR-TX-001

« Reply #325 on: September 17, 2018, 10:12:25 PM »

I revert right back to my previous statement: The CAP ABU is a CAP uniform, not an Air Force uniform. Yes, the Air Force dictates certain protocols, and they sign the paperwork authorizing the wear of their uniform but in distinction. But it's a CAP uniform. It has CAP labels, CAP insignia, and CAP badges. No where on the uniform does it say anything about Air Force (I yield to the 'U.S. Air Force Auxiliary' on the Blues nameplate.

We should be treating these uniforms as CAP uniforms but with the same self-respect and appearance standards as the Air Force uniform, with the full understanding that it is not the Air Force's uniform. We are not in the Air Force (when serving in CAP, that is). The idea that "the Air Force wears it, so we should" is totally moot when it comes to this discussion. And I don't know why it keeps getting recycled.

If I have to hear one more person in a classroom say "When we wear this uniform, we represent the United States Air Force." No, we don't.
It's a fine thesis, but I believe it's flawed.

AFI 10-2701: "Although Civil Air Patrol is not a military service, it uses an Air Force-style grade structure and its members wear Air Force-style uniforms when authorized" ... "The CAP-USAF Commander... Approves Civil Air Patrol grade structure, wear and grooming standards for Air Force-style uniforms and variations thereof, and membership cards, ensuring distinction from Air Force uniforms and identification cards".  So the Air Force is concerned enough to approve all standards of Civil Air Patrol that may reflect upon the Air Force.

CAPM 39-1: "CAP’s USAF-style uniform policies will adhere to USAF standards found in the appropriate USAF instructions. Differences from USAF standards will be only those differences required to meet unique CAP requirements and allowed by USAF-approved exceptions. CAP honors our special relationship with the USAF through closely adhering to the policies set for the USAF’s uniform." ... "The Commander, CAP-USAF, with the approval of Headquarters USAF, prescribes the wear of the USAF-style uniforms, as well as the insignia, badges, and devices worn on these uniforms."

The two organizations seem pretty well aligned that it's an Air Force-style uniform.  And when John Q. Citizen sees a light blue shirt/dark blue pant military looking uniform, he doesn't say "oh look, there's the Civil Air Patrol."  It's either "oh look, there's an Air Force (or Coast Guard) person."  Same with, for the time being, the ABU.

So until CAP has a wholly distinct uniform that does not strike a resemblance to any branch of the military, it is going to be associated with that branch in the eyes of the public.
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Nicholas McLarty, Lt Col, CAP
Texas Wing Staff Guy
National Cadet Team Guy
Hawk200
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,632

« Reply #326 on: September 18, 2018, 05:36:58 AM »

Quote
Per DA Pam 670-1, 25 May 2017, page 7, para 4-8.e., line 7: "Soldiers may wear pin-on badges with sewn on name tape, U.S. Army tape, and grade insignia."

Well color me embarrassed, I've never seen that done. Everything is either sewn on or Velcro and pinned on. I've never seen it mixed like that.

Even though it's done, it's not common. I've seen it maybe a dozen times in the last ten years. It looks decent.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,571

« Reply #327 on: September 18, 2018, 09:55:19 AM »

And when John Q. Citizen sees a light blue shirt/dark blue pant military looking uniform, he doesn't say "oh look, there's the Civil Air Patrol."  It's either "oh look, there's an Air Force (or Coast Guard) person."  Same with, for the time being, the ABU.

So until CAP has a wholly distinct uniform that does not strike a resemblance to any branch of the military, it is going to be associated with that branch in the eyes of the public.

John Q. Citizen doesn't generally know the difference. We're "Army people" to them, some form of military.

There are three sides to this: What is regulated through intent by the organization, how members see themselves, and what the public's perception is. We can't really control what the public thinks. And we can regulate wear standards, even conduct. Where it seems the difficulty rests is in the control of the character of our members at times when wearing the uniform.

Where does the lack of compliance come from?

Obviously, there are some individuals in previous comments that feel some persons serve as "posers," and others (regardless of why they are out of compliance), cause an issue for the entire organization.

So what's the root cause, and what's the corrective action?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,338

« Reply #328 on: September 18, 2018, 10:29:17 AM »

Where does the lack of compliance come from?

Ego and poor leadership.

The ego is in either the vanity of needing the affectation, lack of self-awareness about
appearance, or simply believing the "rules don't apply to me because...'reasons".

I would also hazard that in many cases it's because the respective member isn't getting
much satisfaction out of their service, per se, so he reaches for the affinity as "something to
make the time and money I'm spending here worthwhile..."

The poor leadership comes in with:

Lack of enforcement with ramifications.

Lack of focus on mission and purpose, resulting in #2 above.

Leaving cadets out of the equation, as affinity is literally a mission of the CP, if
only peripheral or tangential, and adolescents have diverse motivations for
behavior, in the case of the majority of the adults I know, the more involved
and satisfied with the ROI of membership, the less they care about the uniform
beyond wanting it to be uniform, for the sake of the broader mission,
and wearing whatever they wear properly.

That's not universal, but it's certainly been prevalent.

I'm not immune to wanting to look sharp and be recognized, but it's in regards to
my peers and equality of the effort, not an attempt to be something I'm not.
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TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,571

« Reply #329 on: September 19, 2018, 09:32:09 AM »

^ Love this.
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DocJekyll
Forum Regular

Posts: 181

« Reply #330 on: September 19, 2018, 12:48:05 PM »

Where does the lack of compliance come from?

Ego and poor leadership.

The ego is in either the vanity of needing the affectation, lack of self-awareness about
appearance, or simply believing the "rules don't apply to me because...'reasons".

I would also hazard that in many cases it's because the respective member isn't getting
much satisfaction out of their service, per se, so he reaches for the affinity as "something to
make the time and money I'm spending here worthwhile..."

The poor leadership comes in with:

Lack of enforcement with ramifications.

Lack of focus on mission and purpose, resulting in #2 above.

Leaving cadets out of the equation, as affinity is literally a mission of the CP, if
only peripheral or tangential, and adolescents have diverse motivations for
behavior, in the case of the majority of the adults I know, the more involved
and satisfied with the ROI of membership, the less they care about the uniform
beyond wanting it to be uniform, for the sake of the broader mission,
and wearing whatever they wear properly.

That's not universal, but it's certainly been prevalent.

I'm not immune to wanting to look sharp and be recognized, but it's in regards to
my peers and equality of the effort, not an attempt to be something I'm not.

So for the TL;DR, it's basically that it's not the uniform per se, it's the other systemic issues in CAP that results in people going nuts about tiny things when they lose focus on what's actually important.  :P

That said, it's up to the leaders of the perspective units to make sure that their members are both following guidelines / regulations, but also that they are being utilized effectively and are feeling accomplished in the mission (whatever mission set they are participating in whether it be ES, CP, or AE).
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Always give 100%, unless you're giving blood.

Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,338

« Reply #331 on: September 19, 2018, 02:51:57 PM »

So for the TL;DR, it's basically that it's not the uniform per se, it's the other systemic issues in CAP that results in people going nuts about tiny things when they lose focus on what's actually important.  :P

That said, it's up to the leaders of the perspective units to make sure that their members are both following guidelines / regulations, but also that they are being utilized effectively and are feeling accomplished in the mission (whatever mission set they are participating in whether it be ES, CP, or AE).

Yes to both.

And it's up to their leaders, and their leaders-leaders, to both enforce things with ramifications, and model the behavior they desire.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Uniforms & Awards  |  Topic: Uniform Change Discussion - ABU's, OCP's and other considerations
 


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