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Eclipse
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« on: June 18, 2018, 11:11:26 AM »

Should be required for anyone who wants a CC badge, included in the UCC curriculum, and speakers like this
should be the keynotes at Wing conferences and PD sessions.

« Last Edit: June 18, 2018, 11:14:45 AM by Eclipse » Logged


Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2018, 01:49:14 PM »

Should be required for anyone who wants a CC badge, included in the UCC curriculum, and speakers like this
should be the keynotes at Wing conferences and PD sessions.



Sorry. No time to watch a 45 minute video. But...

“Leaders eat last” bugs the heck out of me. Because it has become, to some people, a meaningless slogan rather than a leadership concept. There are times when leaders don’t or can’t eat last, but doing otherwise earns them a stink eye because the SLOGAN has been violated, even though good leadership practice has not.

I’ve seen it happen when people have shoved a bunch of cadets through the chow line, while the “leaders eat last.” Trouble is, that means the cadets finish first and the leaders finish last. Somewhere along the line, time gets wasted. Cadets are left waiting or leaders have to rush for no good reason.

Also, the opportunity for leaders to conduct business over a meal gets lost when they can’t get a head start, eat, meet and get back to business.

This slogan isn’t engraved in stone. It speaks to a concept. That concept can be met without strictly adhering to it. Such as...having a flight sergeant go first in line, then cadets, then the flight commander (yes, there will be other lower ranking cadets behind the flight commander, violating the slogan. But if every leader waited until every cadet ate first there would be a loose pack of cadets waiting for leaders).

Anyway, it’s a slogan reflective of leadership, not an inviolable rule.


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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 307

« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2018, 01:58:50 PM »



Sorry. No time to watch a 45 minute video. But...

“Leaders eat last” bugs the heck out of me. Because it has become, to some people, a meaningless slogan rather than a leadership concept. There are times when leaders don’t or can’t eat last, but doing otherwise earns them a stink eye because the SLOGAN has been violated, even though good leadership practice has not.

I’ve seen it happen when people have shoved a bunch of cadets through the chow line, while the “leaders eat last.” Trouble is, that means the cadets finish first and the leaders finish last. Somewhere along the line, time gets wasted. Cadets are left waiting or leaders have to rush for no good reason.

Also, the opportunity for leaders to conduct business over a meal gets lost when they can’t get a head start, eat, meet and get back to business.

This slogan isn’t engraved in stone. It speaks to a concept. That concept can be met without strictly adhering to it. Such as...having a flight sergeant go first in line, then cadets, then the flight commander (yes, there will be other lower ranking cadets behind the flight commander, violating the slogan. But if every leader waited until every cadet ate first there would be a loose pack of cadets waiting for leaders).

Anyway, it’s a slogan reflective of leadership, not an inviolable rule.


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Agreed.  Situation dictates, be smart and apply the concept, don't sacrifice the mission to shoehorn it into some feel-good idea. 
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kwe1009
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Posts: 915

« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2018, 02:22:32 PM »

To me the idea that "Leaders eat last" means that leaders are making sure their troop are taken care of properly (meals, billeting, etc).  It does not necessarily mean that a flight commander should always eat last like others have stated.  It is a concept of servant leadership meaning to put the needs of others over your own.
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PHall
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« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2018, 10:33:24 PM »

To me the idea that "Leaders eat last" means that leaders are making sure their troop are taken care of properly (meals, billeting, etc).  It does not necessarily mean that a flight commander should always eat last like others have stated.  It is a concept of servant leadership meaning to put the needs of others over your own.

Sure, the Flight Commander can eat last, as long as the Flight Sergeant ate first.
Need to have some leadership out there when the rest of the flight gets done eating.
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EMT-83
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Posts: 1,862

« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2018, 11:01:24 PM »

The Great McGuire Airshow Debacle of 2007.

The concept of Leaders Eat Last was completely lost on the adults in charge, and embraced by the cadet officers and NCOs.

The adults were always first in line for chow while many cadets went without food; registration was closed so the adults could party with the fighter pilots (even though a couple hundred people had no bunks assigned); cadets were left in parking lots for hours without relief or refreshments.

The cadet officers and NCOs stepped up and took care of their people to the best of their ability. Real leaders appeared that weekend, some barely old enough to shave.
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NIN
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« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2018, 11:56:55 PM »

Oh, I remember that one

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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kwe1009
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Posts: 915

« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2018, 09:37:27 AM »

To me the idea that "Leaders eat last" means that leaders are making sure their troop are taken care of properly (meals, billeting, etc).  It does not necessarily mean that a flight commander should always eat last like others have stated.  It is a concept of servant leadership meaning to put the needs of others over your own.

Sure, the Flight Commander can eat last, as long as the Flight Sergeant ate first.
Need to have some leadership out there when the rest of the flight gets done eating.

I think you missed my point because you took "leaders eat last" literally.  The point is make sure you take care of your people above your own needs/wants.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2018, 10:06:08 AM »

Sorry. No time to watch a 45 minute video. But...

OK, without putting too fine a point on it, this is...

"I have no time for the nuance, so let me just tell you what I think about what I think this is about..."
and then brings an edge-case example where something generally accepted "can't work because of this one
time at band camp...", missing the point entirely.

Actually, the argument you try to make about this concept is a mistake many poor leaders make.

Of course if there is a practical reason why the "leader", per se, needs to consume calories first, then
of course the leader does so.

The Great McGuire Airshow Debacle of 2007.  ((*snip*))

The concept of Leaders Eat Last was completely lost on the adults in charge, and embraced by the cadet officers and NCOs.

The adults were always first in line for chow while many cadets went without food; registration was closed so the adults could party with the fighter pilots (even though a couple hundred people had no bunks assigned); cadets were left in parking lots for hours without relief or refreshments.

I can't even...

I think you missed my point because you took "leaders eat last" literally.  The point is make sure you take care of your people above your own needs/wants.

This is the bottom line of the presentation, though it goes into very useful and interesting detail
as to the physiological reasons why this is important because of the way the brain uses
chemicals and hormones to encourage behaviors that protect itself.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 307

« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2018, 10:15:41 AM »

The Great McGuire Airshow Debacle of 2007.

The concept of Leaders Eat Last was completely lost on the adults in charge, and embraced by the cadet officers and NCOs.

The adults were always first in line for chow while many cadets went without food; registration was closed so the adults could party with the fighter pilots (even though a couple hundred people had no bunks assigned); cadets were left in parking lots for hours without relief or refreshments.

The cadet officers and NCOs stepped up and took care of their people to the best of their ability. Real leaders appeared that weekend, some barely old enough to shave.

See, whenever I see a video like this (and I can’t stand Sinek) I’m like “yeah, duh, this is basic day 1 stuff”.

Then I see a post like this and wonder what is going on in this organization.
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kwe1009
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« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2018, 10:28:19 AM »

The Great McGuire Airshow Debacle of 2007.

The concept of Leaders Eat Last was completely lost on the adults in charge, and embraced by the cadet officers and NCOs.

The adults were always first in line for chow while many cadets went without food; registration was closed so the adults could party with the fighter pilots (even though a couple hundred people had no bunks assigned); cadets were left in parking lots for hours without relief or refreshments.

The cadet officers and NCOs stepped up and took care of their people to the best of their ability. Real leaders appeared that weekend, some barely old enough to shave.

See, whenever I see a video like this (and I can’t stand Sinek) I’m like “yeah, duh, this is basic day 1 stuff”.

Then I see a post like this and wonder what is going on in this organization.

It is not just CAP.  I've seen similar in the military many times.

My USAF unit was deployed somewhere very hot and dry and we had a few platoons of Army infantry with us to provide security.  They showed up with virtually no water and tents without even a fan.  We had built a very bare base and had trailers to sleep in.  Before our commander even noticed this issue, we moved our people around to give the soldiers room and we gave them water.  The were supposed to be providing food and water to us but it turned out we had to "source" it form other places and give it to them as well.

Poor leadership is everywhere and in some places you do not have to look too hard to find it.
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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,622

« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2018, 10:33:24 AM »

See, whenever I see a video like this (and I can’t stand Sinek) I’m like “yeah, duh, this is basic day 1 stuff”.

Then I see a post like this and wonder what is going on in this organization.

"Day 1 stuff" to who?

If you understand and take the idea to heart, good on 'ye, however in theory there's new guys every
year who have zero military or management experience being appointed as Unit CC's and activity PICs.

CAP spends lots of time on how to fill out a -0U812 form, and just about zero on this sort of "Day 1 stuff".

The organization would be well-served to take some "Winter Driving" time away from Safety and devote
it to issues like this.  Both areas would then be improved.
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kwe1009
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Posts: 915

« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2018, 11:22:09 AM »

If you understand and take the idea to heart, good on 'ye, however in theory there's new guys every
year who have zero military or management experience being appointed as Unit CC's and activity PICs.


I'll add this to: Just because a person is military doesn't mean that they any clue about being a leader.  That is not meant to slam anyone but is a simple fact that many people, especially in CAP, seem to miss.  I have seen many high ranking military officers/NCOs with zero leadership ability or desire.  They may be great managers but they stink as leaders.

Leadership is something that not everyone has the ability to do and while leadership training can help, it can't make a person who doesn't have the desire or traits to be a leader into a leader.  Just like I can take all of the singing lessons from now until the end of time but I will still not be a great singer, I just be a little better than I was.
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Jester
Seasoned Member

Posts: 307

« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2018, 01:15:38 PM »

On the whole in my experience, the baseline of leaders in the military seems to be higher than those on the outside (and yeah, you have outliers, just like anything else). 

I think the reason is because all military training programs stress teamwork and shared hardship from the beginning, and leaders are typically held accountable for their subordinates conduct, and there is a slight amount of gatekeeping involved in moving up.  On the flip side, most non-military leaders got there by simply not leaving the company for an appropriate amount of time and doing what they can to make themselves look better in comparison to their peers.  Again, some of this happens in the military as well, but the organizational culture isn't about that.  People are fallible.

As far as non-prior service commanders not "getting" it, it's almost like we should have a core group of experienced prior and current military folks who are skilled and experienced in lower-level leadership, who have it as part of their reason for existence to help commanders out with this sort of thing...

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Eclipse
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Posts: 28,622

« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2018, 02:01:49 PM »

On the whole in my experience, the baseline of leaders in the military seems to be higher than those on the outside (and yeah, you have outliers, just like anything else).

Yes, leaders.  Not everyone in the military, even those with advanced grade, are "leaders" of anything, yet there is this
mistaken perception that anyone who's ever carried a CAC is somehow a "leader", per se.

I've met plenty of prior and current service officers who are technical specialists, or have a "professional" skill
like medical or legal, and couldn't lead a dog on a leash, or who try to use grade-based authority with CAP volunteers (very common),
and I've met more than a few CAP Leaders who understand and live the military leadership ethos more then those around them
with a chest full of unrelated decorations.

As far as non-prior service commanders not "getting" it, it's almost like we should have a core group of experienced prior and current military folks who are skilled and experienced in lower-level leadership, who have it as part of their reason for existence to help commanders out with this sort of thing...

Or how about a core group of CAP Members with current and relevent experience and a track record of success,
oh, I dunno like maybe a Command Specialty track intended to serve as mentors?

That and actual qualification minimums might be a good place to start.
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GroundHawg
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Posts: 581

« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2018, 02:05:06 PM »

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-does-officers-eat-last-really-mean-jason-west/

https://www.amazon.com/Leadership-Development-Blueprint-Building-Foundation/dp/153020609X

https://theleadertransformation.com/p/10-steps-to-becoming-a-confident-leader-for-first-time-managers

Shameless plug for a good friend of mine. He does seminars on this exact subject and knows this concept better than most. The book has some amazing advice, is well written, and has at least one CAP member who contributed  ;)
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2018, 06:29:04 PM »

Sorry. No time to watch a 45 minute video. But...

OK, without putting too fine a point on it, this is...

"I have no time for the nuance, so let me just tell you what I think about what I think this is about..."
and then brings an edge-case example where something generally accepted "can't work because of this one
time at band camp...", missing the point entirely.

Actually, the argument you try to make about this concept is a mistake many poor leaders make.

Of course if there is a practical reason why the "leader", per se, needs to consume calories first, then
of course the leader does so.


I believe it to have been presumptuous on your part that anyone needed to watch a 45 minute video of your choosing in order to learn some lesson that you believed they needed.

My comments, therefore, were stand-alone, about the overuse of the phrase itself and my observation that there is often more emphasis on the phrase than on the point of the phrase. Feel free to disagree if you wish, but you will have the advantage of not having a 45-minute video being foisted upon you.


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Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Holding Pattern
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« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2018, 06:48:55 PM »

Sorry. No time to watch a 45 minute video. But...

OK, without putting too fine a point on it, this is...

"I have no time for the nuance, so let me just tell you what I think about what I think this is about..."
and then brings an edge-case example where something generally accepted "can't work because of this one
time at band camp...", missing the point entirely.

Actually, the argument you try to make about this concept is a mistake many poor leaders make.

Of course if there is a practical reason why the "leader", per se, needs to consume calories first, then
of course the leader does so.


I believe it to have been presumptuous on your part that anyone needed to watch a 45 minute video of your choosing in order to learn some lesson that you believed they needed.

My comments, therefore, were stand-alone, about the overuse of the phrase itself and my observation that there is often more emphasis on the phrase than on the point of the phrase. Feel free to disagree if you wish, but you will have the advantage of not having a 45-minute video being foisted upon you.


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Your comments are disconnected from the video, so it seems to have not been presumptuous at all.

Eclipse, thanks for sharing the video. I've added it to my library.
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Mitchell 1969
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Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2018, 07:26:31 PM »

Sorry. No time to watch a 45 minute video. But...

OK, without putting too fine a point on it, this is...

"I have no time for the nuance, so let me just tell you what I think about what I think this is about..."
and then brings an edge-case example where something generally accepted "can't work because of this one
time at band camp...", missing the point entirely.

Actually, the argument you try to make about this concept is a mistake many poor leaders make.

Of course if there is a practical reason why the "leader", per se, needs to consume calories first, then
of course the leader does so.


I believe it to have been presumptuous on your part that anyone needed to watch a 45 minute video of your choosing in order to learn some lesson that you believed they needed.

My comments, therefore, were stand-alone, about the overuse of the phrase itself and my observation that there is often more emphasis on the phrase than on the point of the phrase. Feel free to disagree if you wish, but you will have the advantage of not having a 45-minute video being foisted upon you.


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Your comments are disconnected from the video, so it seems to have not been presumptuous at all.

Eclipse, thanks for sharing the video. I've added it to my library.

The presumption was that anybody would be interested in watching a 45 minute video in the first place.  Added to that presumption was the presumption that the video should be added to various courses etc.

I have already said that my comments were stand-alone and based on the overuse and misuse of the phrase.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
UWONGO2
Member

Posts: 96

« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2018, 07:53:25 PM »

The adults were always first in line for chow while many cadets went without food; registration was closed so the adults could party with the fighter pilots (even though a couple hundred people had no bunks assigned); cadets were left in parking lots for hours without relief or refreshments.

I can't even...

Reminds me of the year I went to the Oshkosh NCSA. The event is basically broken into two camps, the "cadet" side and the "ES" side who were all seniors, including a couple of full-bird colonels. The ES staff would barge into the DFAC and cut to the front of the chow line. So there's some poor cadet with 50 cadets behind him and a dozen or so senior members just walk right in front of him, often cutting him off from the rest of his flight who were ahead of him in line.

I asked about it and was told by leadership that the ES guys do their own thing and it's just how it works.
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jeders
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Posts: 2,069

« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2018, 10:19:22 AM »

The adults were always first in line for chow while many cadets went without food; registration was closed so the adults could party with the fighter pilots (even though a couple hundred people had no bunks assigned); cadets were left in parking lots for hours without relief or refreshments.

I can't even...

Reminds me of the year I went to the Oshkosh NCSA. The event is basically broken into two camps, the "cadet" side and the "ES" side who were all seniors, including a couple of full-bird colonels. The ES staff would barge into the DFAC and cut to the front of the chow line. So there's some poor cadet with 50 cadets behind him and a dozen or so senior members just walk right in front of him, often cutting him off from the rest of his flight who were ahead of him in line.

I asked about it and was told by leadership that the ES guys do their own thing and it's just how it works.

Also because they may have been up since 0400 hunting down a half dozen ELTs and have to quickly eat before getting back to work because they are short staffed. In recent years, fortunately, the ES Team has grown in size which allows them to have shifts shorter than 8 hours; this also allows them to wait for their place in line.
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,192

« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2018, 11:10:38 AM »

This really irked me at Encampment two years ago when the Cadet Executive Staff had everyone form up in front of the chow hall before proceeding into chow before all of the other staff and students. I even made that comment, to which I received eye rolls and rebuttals.

This year, I observed the Cadet Executive Staff as the last ones to enter the chow hall, and the Cadet Commander was the last cadet to receive his plate. He also walked by the line of cadets and greeted them as he waited for them to get their meals first. I had a chance to express my appreciation to him of that, and his response was "That's what leaders do. I eat when I know they eat, and if they don't eat, I guess I'm screwed."

I noticed every cadet officer at Encampment this year ate after their respective elements went through first. Kudos to the training process here.


Quote
To me the idea that "Leaders eat last" means that leaders are making sure their troop are taken care of properly (meals, billeting, etc).  It does not necessarily mean that a flight commander should always eat last like others have stated.  It is a concept of servant leadership meaning to put the needs of others over your own.

Quote
Sure, the Flight Commander can eat last, as long as the Flight Sergeant ate first.
Need to have some leadership out there when the rest of the flight gets done eating.

Absolutely. Situation dictates the process. But relatively speaking, make sure your guys are taken care of.

Leaders are responsible for the people and property under them.

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