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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Flight Suit (FDU) for Ground Operations
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Paper Machete
Recruit

Posts: 17

« on: June 15, 2018, 12:26:09 AM »

I’ve seen members who don’t serve on aircrew wearing their FDU with GT ratings on their leather patch. Any thoughts? I’ve been thinking about doing the same on UDF missions considering I own a complete FDU. Thanks!
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Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 52

« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2018, 01:04:08 AM »

CAPM 39-1 might have something to say. CAPM 39-1 is your friend.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 393
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2018, 03:17:30 AM »

CAPM 39-1 might have something to say. CAPM 39-1 is your friend.
8.1. USAF-style and Corporate-style Flight Duty Uniform (FDU) Guidance
8.1.1. Authorized FDU.
8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot, observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission
qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.
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kwe1009
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 915

« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2018, 08:45:05 AM »

CAPM 39-1 might have something to say. CAPM 39-1 is your friend.
8.1. USAF-style and Corporate-style Flight Duty Uniform (FDU) Guidance
8.1.1. Authorized FDU.
8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot, observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.

I added the bold to the part that most people seem to overlook.  The short answer is you are allowed to wear the FDU/CFDU only when you are planning to fly.  Yes the GT badge is authorized on the patch but that doesn't mean you can wear this uniform if you are not flying. 
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,636

« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2018, 12:21:48 PM »

CAPM 39-1 might have something to say. CAPM 39-1 is your friend.
8.1. USAF-style and Corporate-style Flight Duty Uniform (FDU) Guidance
8.1.1. Authorized FDU.
8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot, observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.

I added the bold to the part that most people seem to overlook.  The short answer is you are allowed to wear the FDU/CFDU only when you are planning to fly.  Yes the GT badge is authorized on the patch but that doesn't mean you can wear this uniform if you are not flying.
Here is where context is important.   The subject of that sentence is "Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or  a current or prior aeronautical rating......" 

So.....bottom line is.....if you are currently or previously hold an aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6.....then you are authorized to wear the FDU.   Even if you are doing ground team or mission base or even just regular squadron based duties.

It is allowed by the regulations.

Having said that.....why the hell would you want to?   Trudging through the woods/jungle/desert is bad enough in ABU/BDU/BBDU.....in the FDU it would be murder.   Remember you only get wear the flight cap....so there is the sun.   You can't take off your blouse, roll up your sleeves, unzip your FDU.

If you got to go on a ground mission and you only got your FDU.....go for it.   But as the uniform of choice?    I would suggest you pick a more appropriate uniform.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,614

« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2018, 01:04:16 PM »

So.....bottom line is.....if you are currently or previously hold an aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6.....then you are authorized to wear the FDU.   Even if you are doing ground team or mission base or even just regular squadron based duties.

That's literally the opposite of what it says above in the reg cited.  If you're not flying, or at least plan on it, it's not authorized.


Having said that.....why the hell would you want to?

In hot weather, the cotton dark blue CFDU is as good or better, temp-wise then the ridiculous heavy-cloth camo
or blue CFU.  Remember, it used to be called the utility jumpsuit for a reason - cheap, easy to wear, and nothing
to be snagging, etc.  I will grant that it's not going to hold up in serious environments, but CAP sees those so rarely
as to be a non-issue.

Remember you only get wear the flight cap....so there is the sun.

CAP baseballs caps are authorized for wear with the FDU and CFDU.

One unforeseen consequence of the way it's written, as I've pointed out before - cadets can't wear them
for O-Rides, and new members can't wear them until they get a rating. The Former is an actual
issue for units that had generic ones for new cadets.
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Gunsotsu
Member

Posts: 52

« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2018, 01:53:57 PM »

Here is where context is important.   The subject of that sentence is "Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or  a current or prior aeronautical rating......" 

So.....bottom line is.....if you are currently or previously hold an aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6.....then you are authorized to wear the FDU.   Even if you are doing ground team or mission base or even just regular squadron based duties.

It is allowed by the regulations.

So I guess you just skimmed over the first part that completely negates what you said? Bolded even more for emphasis:

Quote
8.1. USAF-style and Corporate-style Flight Duty Uniform (FDU) Guidance
8.1.1. Authorized FDU.
8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot, observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,636

« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2018, 01:55:32 PM »

So.....bottom line is.....if you are currently or previously hold an aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6.....then you are authorized to wear the FDU.   Even if you are doing ground team or mission base or even just regular squadron based duties.

That's literally the opposite of what it says above in the reg cited.  If you're not flying, or at least plan on it, it's not authorized.


Re-read the regulation.

8.1.1.1.  The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties.   

It does not say "When" performing aviation particular duties.   The regs reinforce this in the next sentence by saying that those not currently rated can continue to wear them.  Again....it says "Authorised for wear" but does not specify "when performing aviation duties".   

The only place where it says you have to be doing aviation duties is for those who do not and have never held aviation ratings.....i.e. trainees.

Also....where does it say cadet's can't wear FDUs during O-rides?   
"Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated."

That looks like it allows cadets to wear FDU for O-rides.




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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,636

« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2018, 01:58:58 PM »

Here is where context is important.   The subject of that sentence is "Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or  a current or prior aeronautical rating......" 

So.....bottom line is.....if you are currently or previously hold an aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6.....then you are authorized to wear the FDU.   Even if you are doing ground team or mission base or even just regular squadron based duties.

It is allowed by the regulations.

So I guess you just skimmed over the first part that completely negates what you said? Bolded even more for emphasis:

Quote
8.1. USAF-style and Corporate-style Flight Duty Uniform (FDU) Guidance
8.1.1. Authorized FDU.
8.1.1.1. The USAF-style FDU and Corporate FDU (CFDU) are authorized functional clothing for wear by individuals who perform aviation particular duties. Flight duty includes preparation, preflight, in-flight, post-flight, and other flight related duties associated with aircraft operations. The FDU and CFDU are authorized for wear by personnel who have or previously had a CAP aeronautical rating as defined by CAPR 35-6, Aeronautical Ratings, Emergency Services Patch and Badges, and Ground Team Badges, and/or have a current aircrew mission qualification (mission pilot, transport pilot, observer, scanner, aerial photographer, etc.). Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is appropriate.
Nope...read that part.  Read the next sentence. 

Again....where does it say "when performing"?
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,614

« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2018, 02:16:52 PM »

It says "planned or anticipated", which is the SAME THING from a practical perspective.

If you walk out the dor planning to fly, you wear it.  If not, you don't.  Very simple.

Split the hairs, it's typically poorly written.

The intent was clearly only for those with a rating and only when flying.

As to cadets, that's also a practical "no", since it requires a supplement, or at least an OI.
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Paper Machete
Recruit

Posts: 17

« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2018, 02:23:43 PM »

To be honest, I hate the ABU uniform. It is very uncomfortable and I feel it doesn’t suit my needs. As for weather, it stays in the low 40’s to mid 60’s in the summer here, I am NOT worried about overheating. As for aeronautical ratings...I currently have none.
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Paper Machete
Recruit

Posts: 17

« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2018, 02:41:56 PM »

“””Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is planned or anticipated.”””

Technically, could I interpret this as “as long as someone is flying a CAP aircraft, I can wear this on the ground?” It doesn’t say I plan to physically be in the plane, just that flying is anticipated...
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apguy
Newbie

Posts: 2

« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2018, 02:55:04 PM »

“””Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is planned or anticipated.”””

Technically, could I interpret this as “as long as someone is flying a CAP aircraft, I can wear this on the ground?” It doesn’t say I plan to physically be in the plane, just that flying is anticipated...

You have to be at least planning to fly that day.  Once you pass that bar (and you are in aircrew status), then wear of the FDU/CFDU is authorized for any CAP activity on that day.  There are still events where a flight suit is not appropriate, such as a formal banquet.  The regs probably don't explicitly state that because we're all intelligent people who know it.

There's nothing complicated here.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,614

« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2018, 03:17:41 PM »

Technically, could I interpret this as “as long as someone is flying a CAP aircraft, I can wear this on the ground?” It doesn’t say I plan to physically be in the plane, just that flying is anticipated...

You mean like "not you" just "someone else"? 

No.
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jeders
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,068

« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2018, 03:27:46 PM »

As for weather, it stays in the low 40’s to mid 60’s in the summer here, I am NOT worried about overheating.

Then why one Earth would you want to wear a flight suit?
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If you are confident in you abilities and experience, whether someone else is impressed is irrelevant. - Eclipse
Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,071
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2018, 04:02:24 PM »


Second what Eclipse said. And more.

“””Personnel who do not have a current aircrew mission qualification or a current or prior aeronautical rating may be authorized wear of the FDU and CFDU on days when actual flying is planned or anticipated. Wing commanders will determine when FDU and CFDU wear is planned or anticipated.”””

Technically, could I interpret this as “as long as someone is flying a CAP aircraft, I can wear this on the ground?” It doesn’t say I plan to physically be in the plane, just that flying is anticipated...


If by that you mean that you plan to use someone else flying that day to twist the language of the regulation to justify your playing pretend USAF aircrew dress up with a UDF ground team, then... If I saw you do this in my Wing I would get you out of CAP (or at the least, pull all your ES qualifications) so fast your head would spin. These emergency services missions do not exist for the benefit of your costume play fantasies, sir or ma'am.  Your attitude towards compliance (indeed, trying to find ways around the system, with rationalizations based on your local weather?!?) leads me to conclude you are a high risk for any CAP ES rating and, perhaps, membership. I wouldn't have your current attitude on any team in the field, nor in any unit under my command.


Now backpedal. Try to tell us you were just joking, or speaking hypothetically... not.  We don't want posers in this organization, we want servant leaders focused on the missions, not the uniforms.


Yours,
Spam


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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,071
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2018, 04:05:30 PM »


Cross link to the first thread where you were looking for a way AROUND the regulations, rather than following them:

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=21912.msg400440#msg400440

Submit that you need to get with the program, or find another hobby.

Spam


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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,342
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2018, 04:13:23 PM »

And that covers the tower fly by.

For the OP - You are hearing but not listening. Step back and take a broad look at the responses you have gotten. There is some good advice in there. Take advantage of it.


Click.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 04:19:14 PM by SarDragon » Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: Flight Suit (FDU) for Ground Operations
 


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