June 04, 2020, 07:36:27 pm

Unit Citation Award

Started by Luis R. Ramos, June 05, 2018, 05:55:14 pm

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Luis R. Ramos

If a CAP is lacking, we should not look for USAF guidance unless instructed so in advance.

Otherwise there is no end in sight.

We would have to accept any branch interpretation.

Also one way of doing things changes over time according to training.

One example. 15 years ago, you could wear a Unit Citation Ribbon if your unit was involved but you were not a member when it was awarded. Now you cannot wear the Unit Citation Ribbon unless you were a member when it was awarded.

Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 05, 2018, 05:55:14 pm
If a CAP is lacking, we should not look for USAF guidance unless instructed so in advance.


Agree.

In 99.99999999(repeating)% of the cases, if it's not in the CAP regs, it's because it either doesn't apply to CAP,
or appllies so seldom that it should be handled on an individual basis.  This includes uniform wear and
items, protocol, etc., etc.

The AFI's might be considered as a basis-document by NHQ when considering regulations, but the
average member has no need to know they exisit, let alone think about referring to them
every time a someone wants to argue about something they shouldn't even be dealing with in the
first place.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 05, 2018, 05:55:14 pm
One example. 15 years ago, you could wear a Unit Citation Ribbon if your unit was involved but you were not a member when it was awarded. Now you cannot wear the Unit Citation Ribbon unless you were a member when it was awarded.


I don't believe this has ever been the case, especially within the last 15 years - it's always
been worn only by those who actually earned it.



Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Eclipse on June 05, 2018, 07:18:39 pm
Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 05, 2018, 05:55:14 pm
If a CAP is lacking, we should not look for USAF guidance unless instructed so in advance.


Agree.

In 99.99999999(repeating)% of the cases, if it's not in the CAP regs, it's because it either doesn't apply to CAP,
or appllies so seldom that it should be handled on an individual basis.  This includes uniform wear and
items, protocol, etc., etc.

The AFI's might be considered as a basis-document by NHQ when considering regulations, but the
average member has no need to know they exisit, let alone think about referring to them
every time a someone wants to argue about something they shouldn't even be dealing with in the
first place.

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 05, 2018, 05:55:14 pm
One example. 15 years ago, you could wear a Unit Citation Ribbon if your unit was involved but you were not a member when it was awarded. Now you cannot wear the Unit Citation Ribbon unless you were a member when it was awarded.


I don't believe this has ever been the case, especially within the last 15 years - it's always
been worn only by those who actually earned it.


Not "always." I don't believe it was within the last 15 years, but I definitely recall a time where the UC was worn by anyone transferring into a unit, even if they hadn't been in the unit when it was earned. Perhaps someone with an old set of refs can clarify this?


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

SarDragon

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 05, 2018, 05:55:14 pm
If a CAP is lacking, we should not look for USAF guidance unless instructed so in advance.

Otherwise there is no end in sight.

We would have to accept any branch interpretation.

Also one way of doing things changes over time according to training.

One example. 15 years ago, you could wear a Unit Citation Ribbon if your unit was involved but you were not a member when it was awarded. Now you cannot wear the Unit Citation Ribbon unless you were a member when it was awarded.


Incorrect. The current policy, though somewhat unclear, was in place back then. The CAPR 39-3 in place at the time in no way authorized the wearing of the Unit Citation to anyone not in the unit during the award period.

Quote from: CAPR 39-3, [b15 August 1960[/b]]    9. g.  Unit Citation Award Ribbon (for individuals). The ribbon will be worn by
all members of a unit which has received a Unit Citation Award by orders of National
Headquarters subsequent to 15 November 1955. Those individuals who were members
at any time during the period (shown in the orders) for which the unit was cited for the
Unit Award may wear the award permanently. Those individuals who joined the unit
after this period may wear the ribbon as long as they are members of the unit. When
they cease to be members of the unit which won the award, they cannot wear the Unit
Citation Award Ribbon, unless they are members of another unit which has won the
award. Evidence of membership as above is all that is necessary for an individual to
wear the ribbon. Unit commanders should post the members' record to show their
eligibility to wear the ribbon.


Quote from: CAPR 39-3, [i2 July 1998[/i]]     12. c. (2) Only one Unit Citation Award certificate
and streamer will be presented to the unit receiving the
award. For example, if an entire group (rather than just the
group headquarters) receives the Unit Citation Award, the
certificate and streamer will be displayed at group
headquarters only; however, all members of the group
headquarters and squadrons within that group are authorized
to wear the Unit Citation Ribbon. The members of each unit
which receive the Unit Citation Award are authorized to
wear the Unit Citation Ribbon. This ribbon is not furnished
by National Headquarters, but may be purchased from the
CAP Bookstore or commercial sources. The Unit Citation
Ribbon may be worn permanently by all individuals who
were members of the unit during any portion of the period of
time shown in the National Headquarters Personnel Action
announcing the award. Unit commanders will post the
members' records to show their eligibility to wear the
ribbon.


I have no intervening regs at this time.

The current policy:

Quote from: CAPR 39-3, [b28 December 2012[/b]]     12. c. (2) Only one Unit Citation Award certificate and streamer will be presented to the unit
receiving the award. For example, if an entire group (rather than just the group headquarters)
receives the Unit Citation Award, the certificate and streamer will be displayed at group headquarters
only; however, all members of the group headquarters and squadrons within that group are
authorized to wear the Unit Citation Ribbon. This ribbon is not furnished by National Headquarters,
but may be purchased from the appropriate commercial sources. The Unit Citation Ribbon is
awarded to individuals who were members of the unit during any portion of the period of time shown
in the National Headquarters Personnel Action announcing the award. Unit commanders will post
the members' records to show their eligibility to wear the ribbon. Once awarded, members may
continue to wear the ribbon even if they transfer out of the unit at a later date.


This appears to be essentially the same as the 1998 text, except for the source of the ribbon.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Luis R. Ramos

Thanks for citing the part of the regulation that bolsters my post.

Quote

...Those individuals who joined the unit after this period may wear the ribbon as long as they are members of the unit. When
they cease to be members of the unit which won the award,
they cannot wear the Unit Citation Award Ribbon, unless they are members of another unit which has won the award.



In other words, in 1990 if Los Palmitos Squadron received a Unit Citation Ribbon on Feb 1989. Those that were members then could wear the UCR forver. If I joined Los Palmitos Dec 1991, I could pin on the UCR. Until the time I left Los Palmitos. If I left Los Palmitos in 1992 I had to take off the UCR. It is as clear as you said, yet you disagree?


Current policy is I join Los Palmitos, I cannot wear it.

Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

SarDragon

June 06, 2018, 10:55:28 pm #5 Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 11:01:35 pm by SarDragon
Your quote is from 1960 policy, long before either of us joined. Current policy dates from at least 1998, prior to your 15 year ago time frame, hence my disagreement.I also stated that I currently do not have any of the intervening regs available, so we're really just peeing into the wind at this point.

If you can find CAPR 39-3, 1 July 1988, or earlier, then we can get closer to resolving this.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Luis R. Ramos

I tell you, I was Personnel Officer and Admin Officer for several squadrons.

I was using, and I read the regulations on my ribbon rack a Unit Citation Ribbon. It was the highest I had, and I still have the racks in my Blues. Last I was Personnel Officer was abt six-seven years ago when there was a change in the regulations covering it. And I stopped wearing that rack.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

PHall

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 06, 2018, 11:03:38 pm
I tell you, I was Personnel Officer and Admin Officer for several squadrons.

I was using, and I read the regulations on my ribbon rack a Unit Citation Ribbon. It was the highest I had, and I still have the racks in my Blues. Last I was Personnel Officer was abt six-seven years ago when there was a change in the regulations covering it. And I stopped wearing that rack.


Just because you were a Personnel  and Administration Officer doesn't mean you are right.
The regs have changed over the years. What was "right" in 1960 is not right in 1998 or even 2018.
Right is what the reg says "right now".

Luis R. Ramos

Exactly. That is my entire point.

What was right in 1960 is not right now.

But if you are not aware of it, the CAP Personnel Officer is the person that is supposed to be in charge of enforcing the Uniform regulations in the same way that Cadet Programs Officers are in charge of carrying out the cadet program. So at that time CAPM 39-1 was my bible. So I had to know it from top to bottom. Just like you know your Emergency Services publications now.


Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Eclipse

Staff officers don't "enforce" anything - they are supposed to be subject matter experts
who advise the CC if any "enforcement" is necessary.



SarDragon

June 07, 2018, 06:19:43 am #10 Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 05:08:28 pm by SarDragon
FYI, CAPM 39-1 is not the operative reg here. CAPR 39-3 (various versions) makes the rules for the award and wear of decorations and awards.

The wear of the Unit Citation by people not members of the unit during the citation period has not been authorized since at least 1998, as quoted above. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: Eclipse on June 07, 2018, 01:50:29 am
Staff officers don't "enforce" anything - they are supposed to be subject matter experts
who advise the CC if any "enforcement" is necessary.


I think this is such a true comment.

Way too many unit commanders out there expect their staff to address an issue and enforce policy, when that commander has never walked over to anyone to address the matter themselves.


hamburgee

Quote from: SarDragon on June 07, 2018, 06:19:43 am
FYI, CAPM 39-1 is not the operative reg here. CAPR 39-1 (various versions) makes the rules for the award and wear of decorations and awards.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it CAPR 39-3? I've never seen a CAP R 39-1

TheSkyHornet

Quote from: hamburgee on June 07, 2018, 02:01:02 pm
Quote from: SarDragon on June 07, 2018, 06:19:43 am
FYI, CAPM 39-1 is not the operative reg here. CAPR 39-1 (various versions) makes the rules for the award and wear of decorations and awards.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it CAPR 39-3? I've never seen a CAP R 39-1


You're correct.

CAPM 39-1 = Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual
CAPR 39-2 = Civil Air Patrol Membership
CAPR 39-3* = Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons and Certificates

NIN

Quote from: SarDragon on June 07, 2018, 06:19:43 am
The wear of the Unit Citation by people not members of the unit during the citation period has not been authorized since at least 1998, as quoted above. Other than that, I don't know what to tell you.


Since way before that, Dave.

In 1981, I was handed a green ribbon.

"Wear this."
"What is it?"
"Just put it on, Basic."
"Yes, sir."

Circa 1980, the rule changed to "you only wear Unit Citations that were awarded when you were in the unit."

However, my unit either didn't get the message, or just didn't care to get the message. (sometimes, people read an updated regulation with the lens of what they think they know it says, not what it actually says. I've done it.)

The Unit Citation cited as to "why everybody in the squadron wears a Unit Citation" was from 1976 or 1977.

Many years later, around 1998 or early 1999, my Wing Commander (who, strangely enough, didn't have a Red Service Ribbon the day they slid eagles on his epaulets, and had ZERO CAP background in to this kind of thing) and I stood in front of the reg set at wing HQ while he argued with me that the CAP regulation that existed at that moment mirrored the Air Force's wear pattern (that you put on the unit citation of the unit while you're in the unit).  I pointed to the paragraph and was able to explain to him how it had been written and how it had changed over the years and he still wasn't buying CAP's intent, even in black and white and English that didn't match what he thought it said.

The equivalent of paragraph 9j in today's CAPR 39-3 in prior editions used to have some confusing text about "temporary" vs "permanent" awards, but then never explained what it meant by either term, so it almost left you with more questions than answers. It is much better today.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
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I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
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SarDragon

OK, I fixed my 39-1 goof. It was getting late.

This is from Gen. Courter's 2008 ICL to the 39-3:
Quote1. l. Unit Citation Award. The Unit Citation Award ribbon may only be worn by
members assigned to the unit during any portion of the period of time shown in the
National Headquarters Personnel Action announcing the award. Individuals who join the
unit at a later date are not authorized to wear the Unit Citation Ribbon.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

SarDragon

Quote from: TheSkyHornet on June 07, 2018, 02:05:35 pm
Quote from: hamburgee on June 07, 2018, 02:01:02 pm
Quote from: SarDragon on June 07, 2018, 06:19:43 am
FYI, CAPM 39-1 is not the operative reg here. CAPR 39-1 (various versions) makes the rules for the award and wear of decorations and awards.

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it CAPR 39-3? I've never seen a CAP R 39-1


You're correct.

CAPM 39-1 = Civil Air Patrol Uniform Manual
CAPR 39-2 = Civil Air Patrol Membership
CAPR 39-3* = Award of CAP Medals, Ribbons and Certificates


Actually, many moons ago, there really was a CAPR 39-1, dealing with Nondiscrimination in Federally Assisted Programs.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

GaryVC

Not that this adds anything to this discussion, but the Air Force changes the rules as far as wearing any unit citation the unit had received in the early 1970s.

TarRiverRat

When I joined Tar River Composite Squadron in 1996, I was given a Unit Citation Award ribbon to wear.  I wore it up until 2000 when I left.  I came back in 2012 and was unable to wear it at that time due current regulations concerning the wearing of the ribbon.  I can not absolutely say what was allowed in 1996 in the regulations.  I did not concern myself to much with awards back in those days.  If I was awarded it, I wore it.  My Squadron Commander may have been in error to award the Ribbon to everyone that joined.  I do know that it was placed in my records at the time and I believe a copy was forwarded to Wing.   My original file was destroyed after my lengthy time away from the squadron.  Only a portion of my file was converted to the new computer system.  None of my awards showed up except for promotions and some training.
Tar River Composite Squadron "River Rats" NC-057

PHall

Quote from: GaryVC on June 07, 2018, 06:19:03 pm
Not that this adds anything to this discussion, but the Air Force changes the rules as far as wearing any unit citation the unit had received in the early 1970s.


I know that when I entered the Air Force in September 1974 you could only wear the unit citation award if you were a member of the unit during the time period stated on the order awarding the citation to the unit.