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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: What states require fire extinguishers in CAP vans?
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Author Topic: What states require fire extinguishers in CAP vans?  (Read 1728 times)
Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,248
Unit: Worry

« on: April 25, 2018, 01:54:10 PM »

In one of my more extreme cases of insomnia, I read the SUI KB documents.

2 things caught my eye:
1. Discrepancy is spelled wrong repeatedly in the KB.
2. I don't know how to check my state laws for the following issue (part c):

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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,861

« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2018, 02:05:51 PM »

In one of my more extreme cases of insomnia, I read the SUI KB documents.

2 things caught my eye:
1. Discrepancy is spelled wrong repeatedly in the KB.
2. I don't know how to check my state laws for the following issue (part c):



Call the DMV.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,248
Unit: Worry

« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2018, 02:07:03 PM »

Sadly, calling the DMV means that some random person will give me advice that may or may not be accurate. I'd prefer to know the correct method of researching the state laws.
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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,861

« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2018, 02:11:35 PM »

Sadly, calling the DMV means that some random person will give me advice that may or may not be accurate. I'd prefer to know the correct method of researching the state laws.

So call a cop, a fire marshal, any representative of the state. Want to research state laws? They're all online. Identify your state motor vehicle laws and open the book.
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Holding Pattern
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,248
Unit: Worry

« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2018, 02:13:31 PM »

Sadly, calling the DMV means that some random person will give me advice that may or may not be accurate. I'd prefer to know the correct method of researching the state laws.

So call a cop, a fire marshal, any representative of the state. Want to research state laws? They're all online. Identify your state motor vehicle laws and open the book.

My initial searches through state law are giving me rules on logging trucks, dump trucks, assistance vans, and other various items... but if there is no law I'm going to have trouble finding a negative.
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Spam
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,076
Unit: GA-001

« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2018, 02:17:38 PM »


Suggest your friendly Wing Legal Officer would be the person to ask.

As lawyers presumably licensed in your state, they'd have the expertise to look it up, they may be happy to be contributing to the ES mission in a small but significant way, and this sort of thing is why they've stepped forward to help as legal officers.

R/s
Spam

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THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,861

« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2018, 02:21:12 PM »


Suggest your friendly Wing Legal Officer would be the person to ask.

As lawyers presumably licensed in your state, they'd have the expertise to look it up, they may be happy to be contributing to the ES mission in a small but significant way, and this sort of thing is why they've stepped forward to help as legal officers.

R/s
Spam

Or the wing LG, or the wing Lo or whatever they are calling themselves this FY...
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Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
EMT-83
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,863

« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2018, 02:35:00 PM »

Suggest your friendly Wing Legal Officer would be the person to ask.
Or the wing LG, or the wing Lo or whatever they are calling themselves this FY...

That's crazy talk, with all the anonymous folks available right here on the interwebs.
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arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,252

« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2018, 02:42:38 PM »


Suggest your friendly Wing Legal Officer would be the person to ask.

As lawyers presumably licensed in your state, they'd have the expertise to look it up, they may be happy to be contributing to the ES mission in a small but significant way, and this sort of thing is why they've stepped forward to help as legal officers.

R/s
Spam

Or the wing LG, or the wing Lo or whatever they are calling themselves this FY...
More correctly, your wing transportation officer.
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,635

« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2018, 03:07:32 PM »

More correctly, your wing transportation officer.

+1 They are the one responsible for equipping the vehicles, not a local unit, and also for making the decision
regarding removing anything.

Moreover, whomever is the unit PIC, ought to already know that as a matter of course when they
do their portion of the SUI.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,172

« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2018, 11:40:08 PM »

What kind of paperwork is in your CAP van? What does the driver have to use?

In our Wing there is a book with checklists the driver uses everyday. From checking oil, tires and much more. Checkboxes for all required equipment.

Does your Wing do this? Is the fire extinguisher on the checklist? Whoever wrote the checklist and had it approved through Wing would have known, or should have. ;)

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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,252

« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2018, 11:49:30 AM »

What kind of paperwork is in your CAP van? What does the driver have to use?

In our Wing there is a book with checklists the driver uses everyday. From checking oil, tires and much more. Checkboxes for all required equipment.

Does your Wing do this? Is the fire extinguisher on the checklist? Whoever wrote the checklist and had it approved through Wing would have known, or should have. ;)
1. Registration, Ins, CAPF 73, Tax Exempt letter, maintenance records
2. CAPF 73. Hopefully the driver should never have to use the registration and insurance.
3. We use the CAPF 73, which is SUPPOSED to be filled out each time the vehicle is used.
4. Fire extinguisher is not.
5. We used to have a separate usage log that a long ago former wing transportation officer implemented. Its use became a matter of "we have to fill the form out because we have the form" despite the only use it had at wing was "Did the unit fill out the form". When I took over Logistics, the form went away.
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Brad
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 801
Unit: MER-SC-020

« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2018, 05:29:42 PM »

Which state?
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Brad Lee
Maj, CAP
Assistant Director of Communications
SCWG
K4RMN
arajca
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 4,252

« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2018, 07:34:08 PM »

Which state?
CO
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,172

« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2018, 07:59:05 PM »




Letter C in the Supplemental Box:  If its not required by state law then it MUST BE REMOVED????

Can anyone give me a good reason why Wing doesn't think having EXTRA safety gear is a good thing?

Why be minimalist?  Imagine a Cadet getting hurt in a van fire. The parents' lawyer discovers the van originally had a fire extinguisher, but the Wing demanded its removal.

Hmmmmm.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,635

« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2018, 08:52:22 PM »

Fire extinguishers become projectiles when improperly mounted, need to be maintained which is not free,  and far too
often were / are found damaged rolling around on the floor in COVs.

Their value in a CAP context is also debatable in the same way as Nomex in COAs.

Bottom line they are a hassle, a frequent CI ding, and not worth the trouble.

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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 394
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2018, 09:03:29 PM »




Letter C in the Supplemental Box:  If its not required by state law then it MUST BE REMOVED????

Can anyone give me a good reason why Wing doesn't think having EXTRA safety gear is a good thing?

Why be minimalist?  Imagine a Cadet getting hurt in a van fire. The parents' lawyer discovers the van originally had a fire extinguisher, but the Wing demanded its removal.

Hmmmmm.
Is that a local unit form to fill out or does Wing handle this? If local, why is the above comment regards Wing being responsible relevant? (Not yours - another poster?)
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,172

« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2018, 09:07:14 PM »

Fire extinguishers become projectiles when improperly mounted, need to be maintained which is not free,  and far too
often were / are found damaged rolling around on the floor in COVs.

Their value in a CAP context is also debatable in the same way as Nomex in COAs.

Bottom line they are a hassle, a frequent CI ding, and not worth the trouble.

So in my lawsuit example above, you are saying the CAP/AF lawyers would say the fire extinguisher was a hassle and not worth the trouble?  >:D

No need to reply. I understand and agree. I just think its funny. I've been involved in thousands of hours of legal depositions and have seen/heard it all.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 394
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2018, 09:22:52 PM »

Fire extinguishers become projectiles when improperly mounted, need to be maintained which is not free,  and far too
often were / are found damaged rolling around on the floor in COVs.

Their value in a CAP context is also debatable in the same way as Nomex in COAs.

Bottom line they are a hassle, a frequent CI ding, and not worth the trouble.

So in my lawsuit example above, you are saying the CAP/AF lawyers would say the fire extinguisher was a hassle and not worth the trouble?  >:D

No need to reply. I understand and agree. I just think its funny. I've been involved in thousands of hours of legal depositions and have seen/heard it all.

See https://www.responsibleag.org/compliance-assistance-library/Fire_Extinguishers,_Commercial_Motor_Vehicles-20140922.pdf

Think what an attorney might do with that?
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Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,635

« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2018, 10:40:58 PM »

?

COVs aren't commercial carriers, don't transport haz mat, nor "power units".
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 394
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2018, 12:20:46 AM »

?

COVs aren't commercial carriers, don't transport haz mat, nor "power units".
Really? We are not "compensated" by the USAF? Ever?

Have you ever been sued?
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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 776
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2018, 03:38:48 AM »

?

COVs aren't commercial carriers, don't transport haz mat, nor "power units".
Really? We are not "compensated" by the USAF? Ever?

Have you ever been sued?

Individuals receiving government compensation does not turn the COVs into commercial vehicles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 28,635

« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2018, 07:03:22 AM »

?

COVs aren't commercial carriers, don't transport haz mat, nor "power units".
Really? We are not "compensated" by the USAF? Ever?

CAP is not "compensated" it is "reimbursed" - huge difference.  Even the limited times
members get per diem it's not "compensation".

This sort of "Think of the lawyers" alarmism is what keeps a lot of members from doing things
that are re
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lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,639

« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2018, 12:38:36 PM »

In one of my more extreme cases of insomnia, I read the SUI KB documents.

2 things caught my eye:
1. Discrepancy is spelled wrong repeatedly in the KB.
2. I don't know how to check my state laws for the following issue (part c):


Call you wing Vehicle Officer.   Since he is probably the one going to review that portion of the SUI.....he can tell you exactly what you need.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Brad
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 801
Unit: MER-SC-020

« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2018, 03:42:53 AM »

From the Colorado State Patrol:

Quote
CMV (Commercial Motor Vehicle) any self-propelled or towed vehicle bearing an apportioned plate or having a Gross
Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) or Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) of 10,001 pounds or more, which is
used in commerce on a public highway, or of any weight which used to:
*Transport 9 or more people for compensation or
*Is designed to transport 16 or more people regardless of compensation or
*A placadable amount of hazmat or
*Is designed or equipped to transport other vehicles via cables or winches 49 CFR 390.5, CRS 42-4-235

Quote
EMERGENCY EQUIPMENT:
49 CFR 393.95 requires a CMV to have a fire extinguisher with at least a 5 B:C rating and either three bidirectional
reflective triangles or six road flares.

https://www.colorado.gov/pacific/sites/default/files/Small%20truck%20and%20Combination%20Web.pdf

Now, I am not a lawyer, however looking at the information provided and applying some common sense, as previously established CAP is not operating CMVs for compensation/hire, otherwise we'd all have to get CDLs to drive them. Our vans also no longer carry 16+ people, so by Colorado's definition CAP vans are not CMVs, and I can find no further reference to fire extinguishers and vehicles in Colorado statutes.
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Brad Lee
Maj, CAP
Assistant Director of Communications
SCWG
K4RMN
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: What states require fire extinguishers in CAP vans?
 


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