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May 20, 2018, 07:05:53 PM
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: ES - The forgotten mission?
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Author Topic: ES - The forgotten mission?  (Read 1390 times)
LSThiker
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,804
Unit: Earth

« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2018, 05:28:22 PM »

Iím not an ES junky at all. Iím not even GTM3 certified. It just seems odd to me that itís the only one of our three missions that isnít stressed like the others. Either we should be effective in ES or we should change our missions.

So go get GTM3.  And if you are 18+, then also get GTL.  Change that for your area.  Stress ES at your local squadron. 
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CAPSOC_0pur8ur
Recruit

Posts: 48

« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2018, 05:32:02 PM »

Iím not an ES junky at all. Iím not even GTM3 certified. It just seems odd to me that itís the only one of our three missions that isnít stressed like the others. Either we should be effective in ES or we should change our missions.

So go get GTM3.  And if you are 18+, then also get GTL.  Change that for your area.  Stress ES at your local squadron. 

Working on it  :)
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"To be somebody or to do something. In life there is often a roll call. Thatís when you will have to make a decision. To be or to do? Which way will you go?Ē -Col John Boyd
Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 658

« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2018, 06:04:00 PM »

The purpose of the thread is to discuss why ES has been given a lower priority than the other missions, as well as possible remedies.

You keep saying this and you keep getting corrected, I'm going to give it one last try.

In the Civil Air Patrol, the Emergency Services mission has an equal, if not greater priority than the missions of Cadet Programs and Aerospace Education. I mean, out of our $30 million dollar appropriation, which mission sees most of that funding? It ain't CP and AE.

So I'd argue CAP places a higher priority on ES than it does CP, at least based upon funding.

Because you keep using broad terms, people keep telling you that your assertion doesn't line up with the facts. Now consider if you had said this:

Within the Cadet Program, there is a focus on the AE mission, but not the ES mission.

If you'd said that, I'd agree with you. Once you got everyone on the same page, then you'll get a discussion on why people think the ES should not be a part of the cadet program or why people think it should. But you keep saying CAP doesn't focus on ES, which just isn't true and it gets people off course on the discussion.
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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,087

« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2018, 06:04:25 PM »

Our Wing has been fortunate enough to work with the Army in helping train controllers for PAR approaches. We have done this every month for nearly a year now. They appreciate the help and we get pilot and airplane hours.

My point, after reading this thread, is that I'm really not sure this is ES?  I guess thats where the bean counters put it, but my point is that CAP is evolving, and we are looking for new missions. This is a good one, no matter where you classify it.

Same with the Reaper Escort Missions in NY. I really don't think of it as "Emergency Services".  You have to be in ES to participate, but the actual mission isn't emergency or disaster related at all.

May be time soon for Congress to rewrite our Charter and give us new directions.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,514
Unit: Classified

« Reply #44 on: April 20, 2018, 08:15:55 PM »

Iím not an ES junky at all. Iím not even GTM3 certified. It just seems odd to me that itís the only one of our three missions that isnít stressed like the others. Either we should be effective in ES or we should change our missions.

Yeah you are if you're this butt hurt about ES not being enough.  Not everyone wants to do ES, not every squadron will be geared towards it and there is nothing wrong with that.

Maybe ES isn't getting the hype in your area because there is simply no need, no desire or bridges were burned,  or maybe just maybe you have not self advertised.  Not to mention all the junkies who think that CAP is the creme de la creme of SAR agencies and all the games that get played getting training and certs. 

I can tell you that ES is big in my wing since half of my emails are all about missions, bivouacs and FTXs.  CAP is is biggest obstacle in ES and will continue to be so until things change. 

But given your so adamant about it and your name well hard to take you seriously...
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,055

« Reply #45 on: April 20, 2018, 08:26:19 PM »

I can't tell you how many cadets I've seen that jumped through all of the hoops to get ES Qualified, only to quit a year or so later because they were never given a chance to use their ES skills and training.
Many of the ES Only Senior Members don't want to deal with Cadets because they don't want to deal the Cadet Protection Program.
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BraveRifles19D
Recruit

Posts: 17

« Reply #46 on: April 20, 2018, 08:28:33 PM »

Stats from 2016:
Missions
1,265 search and rescue missions
92 lives saved
577 finds
139 other state support missions

I'd say ES is still important. Especially to those 92 people that are still alive thanks to our members.

As for ES training not being a priority, that rests wholly on the senior members of the squadrons/groups. If they don't want to get involved in ES, how are the cadets, even if they wanted to, going to get involved in it? My squadron commander has zero interest in ES. He is an evaluator we can't even get him to sign off on simple line items. We've had to go to another nearby squadron to do any sort of training.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,087

« Reply #47 on: April 20, 2018, 08:48:10 PM »


I'd say ES is still important. Especially to those 92 people that are still alive thanks to our members.


Of course. But a big question is how may of the tens of thousands of CAP members ever participate in these missions?

For one example, a lot of our SAVES now are coming from the "handful" of folks doing the cell phone forensics searches. Fantastic service, but its sort of a splintered off group unrelated to 99.9% of CAP membership.

So many ELT searches done by the same Senior members in a Wing.  So many members standing on the sidelines training for missions that never come.

New missions, new directions .... greatly needed.
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MS - MO - AP - MP - FRO
BraveRifles19D
Recruit

Posts: 17

« Reply #48 on: April 20, 2018, 08:49:49 PM »


I'd say ES is still important. Especially to those 92 people that are still alive thanks to our members.


Of course. But a big question is how may of the tens of thousands of CAP members ever participate in these missions?

For one example, a lot of our SAVES now are coming from the "handful" of folks doing the cell phone forensics searches. Fantastic service, but its sort of a splintered off group unrelated to 99.9% of CAP membership.

So many ELT searches done by the same Senior members in a Wing.  So many members standing on the sidelines training for missions that never come.

New missions, new directions .... greatly needed.
We had 3 elts in the last month and a half and there were cadets on all the searches.

Sent from my VS988 using Tapatalk

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Mitchell 1969
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 746
Unit: PCR-CA-051

« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2018, 12:03:38 AM »

Holding, I'm going to address each of your points for the sake of discussion. Please don't see this as me shooting down your suggestions.

1. If our training is so outdated that we aren't effective, maybe it's time we update it as well.

2. I'm not saying every cadet should go on real-world missions on a ground team. After all, we don't make cadets who are scared of heights do O flights. Likewise, we don't prevent cadets from flying because it's hard or dangerous. There are positions such as MSA, MRO, and other support staff positions that are neither high stress nor high tempo.

3. Again, there are support staff positions that, while being mission critical, are not dangerous our high stress.

CAP does, indeed, have three missions. Participating in one does not require participating in the other two. (Aerospace subjects are integral to the cadet program as part of the cadet program, going back to 1942).

That said, you arenít even talking about incorporating ES into the cadet program. Face it - you are talking about incorporating ground teams into the cadet program. ES and GT are not synonymous - one is a subset of the other.

Whether ES as a whole or GT on its own, a reality is that there is no one-size-fits-all approach that could be melded into CP.  ES needs and  opportunities differ greatly from Region to Region, Wing to Wing. In fact, they often vary over stretches of 100 miles.

ES is always available as an augmentation to CP, where there are needs for it and people qualified to administer it, but it will never be a central element of CP.


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_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,296
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2018, 01:56:36 AM »

I'ma gonna shut this off. It has turned into a bit of a measuring contest, and the OP isn't hearing what he wants, so is repeating himself in hopes that someone might change their mind the next time they hear it.

If anyone has anything further to contribute, send me the post via PM, and I will vet it prior to posting.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Emergency Services & Operations  |  Topic: ES - The forgotten mission?
 


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