CAP History of taking out German U-boats

Started by CAPed Crusader, April 10, 2018, 06:10:26 pm

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CAPed Crusader

I watched a documentary on CAP and CAP used to throw bombs at U-Boats in WWII out of a Cessna.
Is this true?

V/R
Cadet Airman
Francis DeRosa


I_Am_Twigs

From my understanding we did not bomb the U-boats, we only found and reported them.

I'm not an expert on it so don't take my word for it!
C/Capt, CAP
"Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; courage is also what it takes to sit down and listen." --Winston Churchill

SarDragon

Oh, we most certainly threw bombs at them, but the reports of actually sinking two subs were exaggerated.

Go here.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Sriracha

We sunk 1, critically disabled another, and I've heard we killed a whale.

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abdsp51

Quote from: Sriracha on April 10, 2018, 08:32:10 pm
We sunk 1, critically disabled another, and I've heard we killed a whale.

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Been proven as false...

LSThiker

Quote from: Sriracha on April 10, 2018, 08:32:10 pm
We sunk 1, critically disabled another, and I've heard we killed a whale.


More like, we have no evidence for sinking any submarines other than lore.  Critically disabled another is debatable with shaky evidence to no evidence to support it. 

But we most definitely dropped bombs.

Sriracha

Quote from: LSThiker on April 10, 2018, 08:38:40 pm
Quote from: Sriracha on April 10, 2018, 08:32:10 pm
We sunk 1, critically disabled another, and I've heard we killed a whale.


More like, we have no evidence for sinking any submarines other than lore.  Critically disabled another is debatable with shaky evidence to no evidence to support it. 

But we most definitely dropped bombs.
Thank you, I wasn't aware. I figured it was a bit of a tall tale. But, in regards to dropping bombs, we definitely did. Actually, I beleive one of the squadrons by the shore here in NJ has it featured on their squadron patch.

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Eclipse

Quote from: Sriracha on April 10, 2018, 08:49:33 pm
Thank you, I wasn't aware. I figured it was a bit of a tall tale. But, in regards to dropping bombs, we definitely did. Actually, I beleive one of the squadrons by the shore here in NJ has it featured on their squadron patch.


No one ever called into question that there were coastal patrols, bombs dropped, and those pilots
risked their lives from several vectors (not the least of which was wiring a bomb to the
bottom of a plane never intended for that purpose).

The veracity of the claims regarding the kills were called into question for decades,
culminating with what was essentially an admittance by the NHQ History Directorate
a few years ago that no hard evidence of this exists.

That is why it's been quietly removed form the verbiage of ad copy, tags lines, and
press releases.  There is still plenty around about the flights and the patrols,
but little about "sunken subs" anymore.



MacGruff

Also, they were not flying Cessnas at the time...  but now I'm just quibbling...
>:D

PHall

Quote from: MacGruff on April 10, 2018, 10:42:49 pm
Also, they were not flying Cessnas at the time...  but now I'm just quibbling...
>:D


That and we dropped the bombs. Even a 50 pounder is too big to toss out a door or window.

Dwight Dutton

Quote from: Sriracha on April 10, 2018, 08:32:10 pm
We sunk 1, critically disabled another, and I've heard we killed a whale. Sent from my HTC U11 life using Tapatalk


When I was a cadet in New Jersey in 1974 I actually got to know the pilot who did that.

So we did have at least one confirmed kill.

LSThiker

April 11, 2018, 01:34:55 am #12 Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 01:47:42 am by LSThiker
Quote from: Schrödinger's hat on April 11, 2018, 01:25:08 am
Quote from: Sriracha on April 10, 2018, 08:32:10 pm
We sunk 1, critically disabled another, and I've heard we killed a whale. Sent from my HTC U11 life using Tapatalk


When I was a cadet in New Jersey in 1974 I actually got to know the pilot who did that.

So we did have at least one confirmed kill.


Unfortunately the evidence from the Navy's Sea Diaries, the German U-boat records, and the Army Air Force inspection reports all indicate that CAP never sunk a submarine. All German U-boats have been accounted for and no U-boats were sunk in the area during 1942. Now, what the the famous First Kill story seems to indicate is that the crew dropped a bomb on the already sunken SS San Jose, which was in the exact area as the recorded bomb drop.  The first depth charge was dropped at 39° 21' 5" N; 74° 13' W, while the second was dropped at 39° 20' N; 74° 11' W.  While the crew, Farr and Haggin, did earn Air Medals, they did not earn it for that event on 11 July 1942, rather they earned the Air Medal for other sorties.

So at best it is just lore and falls into the fog of war. Unless you have more solid evidence than a story from a person years after it happened. I would be happy to hear about it.

Eclipse

Quote from: Schrödinger's hat on April 11, 2018, 01:25:08 am
Quote from: Sriracha on April 10, 2018, 08:32:10 pm
We sunk 1, critically disabled another, and I've heard we killed a whale. Sent from my HTC U11 life using Tapatalk


When I was a cadet in New Jersey in 1974 I actually got to know the pilot who did that.

So we did have at least one confirmed kill.


Knowing someone who says the sank a sub ≠knowing someone who actually sank a sub.
The claims were made for years, despite very thin evidence that didn't hold up to scrutiny.

That's despite any number of very enthusiastic people, both a part of CAP and outsiders, who
worked actively over the years to either debunk or confirm the assertions.

By some accounts the number of people claiming to have served during Vietnam increased
between the 90's and 2000' census to a number almost 4MM more then actually served.

I have personally known a number of high-profile "claimers" who, when scrutinized, were found to
be lacking evidence, even to the point of being exposed as stealing valor.

With all that said, that doesn't mean it's not possible, it means there is no verifiable evidence
to the claim.  It also doesn't mean your friend was lying, if either he believes he did,
or he did with no evidence.

But absent evidence, it's only a claim.



SarDragon

Quote from: MacGruff on April 10, 2018, 10:42:49 pm
Also, they were not flying Cessnas at the time...  but now I'm just quibbling...
>:D


Actually, according to documents I've seen, there were a few Cessnas out there, too.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Sriracha

Quote from: SarDragon on April 11, 2018, 02:30:10 am
Quote from: MacGruff on April 10, 2018, 10:42:49 pm
Also, they were not flying Cessnas at the time...  but now I'm just quibbling...
>:D


Actually, according to documents I've seen, there were a few Cessnas out there, too.
I thought those were L-4 grasshoppers and piper cubs, as I know those were widely used, but I'm not sure.

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SarDragon

Quote from: Sriracha on April 11, 2018, 02:35:32 am
Quote from: SarDragon on April 11, 2018, 02:30:10 am
Quote from: MacGruff on April 10, 2018, 10:42:49 pm
Also, they were not flying Cessnas at the time...  but now I'm just quibbling...
>:D


Actually, according to documents I've seen, there were a few Cessnas out there, too.
I thought those were L-4 grasshoppers and piper cubs, as I know those were widely used, but I'm not sure.

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In the stuff I slogging through now, there is more mention of Stinsons and Wacos than anything else. They were faster, and had farther range than the Pipers (L-4 = military designation of the J-3 Cub). Load capacity was also a factor.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Sriracha

Quote from: SarDragon on April 11, 2018, 02:55:36 am
Quote from: Sriracha on April 11, 2018, 02:35:32 am
Quote from: SarDragon on April 11, 2018, 02:30:10 am
Quote from: MacGruff on April 10, 2018, 10:42:49 pm
Also, they were not flying Cessnas at the time...  but now I'm just quibbling...
>:D


Actually, according to documents I've seen, there were a few Cessnas out there, too.
I thought those were L-4 grasshoppers and piper cubs, as I know those were widely used, but I'm not sure.

Sent from my HTC U11 life using Tapatalk


In the stuff I slogging through now, there is more mention of Stinsons and Wacos than anything else. They were faster, and had farther range than the Pipers (L-4 = military designation of the J-3 Cub). Load capacity was also a factor.
That would make sense. After all, the Cub was a civilian aircraft in a wartime role, it wasn't designed to carry bombs. Anything with more cargo or loading space would be exponentially better that job.

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SarDragon

NONE of these planes were designed to carry ordnance of any kind. "Good olde American ingenuity" was used to design bomb racks and other related devices to allow the flyers to accomplish their mission. If you go to the link I posted above, and surf around a bit, you will find several (many?) hours worth of reading on the Coastal Patrol effort.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Sriracha

Quote from: SarDragon on April 11, 2018, 03:39:10 am
NONE of these planes were designed to carry ordnance of any kind. "Good olde American ingenuity" was used to design bomb racks and other related devices to allow the flyers to accomplish their mission. If you go to the link I posted above, and surf around a bit, you will find several (many?) hours worth of reading on the Coastal Patrol effort.
Thank you for posting that, they're always interesting reads. I'm currently posting on my phone, but I'll be sure to read it when I get to my computer.

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