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Author Topic: Low Recruit Discipline Prompts Army to Redesign Basic Training  (Read 2952 times)
OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« on: February 10, 2018, 12:46:13 PM »

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/02/09/low-discipline-new-soldiers-prompts-army-redesign-basic-training.html#

The U.S. Army will soon launch a redesign of Basic Combat Training intended to build more discipline after many commanders complained that new soldiers often show up to their first units with a sloppy appearance and undisciplined attitudes.

By early summer, new recruits will go through Army BCT that's designed to instill strict discipline and esprit de corps by placing a new emphasis in drill and ceremony, inspections, pride in military history while increasing the focus on critical training such as physical fitness, marksmanship, communications and battlefield first aid skills.

The program will also feature three new field training exercises that place a greater emphasis on forcing recruits to demonstrate Warrior Tasks and Battle Drills, the list of key skills all soldiers are taught to survive in combat.

The new program of instruction is the result of surveys taken from thousands of leaders who have observed a trend of new soldiers fresh out of training displaying a lack of obedience and poor work ethic as well as being careless with equipment, uniform and appearance, Maj. Gen. Malcolm Frost, commanding general of the U.S. Army Center of Initial Military Training, told defense reporters on Friday.

'A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT'
"What leaders have observed in general is they believe that there is too much of a sense of entitlement, questioning of lawful orders, not listening to instruction, too much of a buddy mentality with NCOs and officers and a lot of tardiness being late to formation and duties," Frost said. "These are trends that they see as increasing that they think are part of the discipline aspect that is missing and that they would like to see in the trainees that become soldiers that come to them as their first unit of assignment."

As commanding general of IET, Frost was tasked with increasing the quality of training and reducing new soldier attrition.

After compiling the data from surveys of about 27,000 commissioned officers, warrant officers and non-commissioned officers, the message was very clear, Frost said.

"The number-one thing that was asked for five-fold or five times as much as any of the other categories was discipline," Frost said.

"First-unit-of-assignment leaders want Initial Entry Training to deliver disciplined, physically-fit new soldiers who are willing to learn, they are mentally tough, professional and are proud to serve in the United States Army."

In addition to discipline and physical fitness, leaders also wanted technical and tactical proficiency in warrior tasks and battle drills.

BE A SOLDIER
After working out the details in a pilot at Fort Jackson, South Carolina, the Army has approved a new POI that Frost hopes will better instill into recruits exactly what it means to be a soldier.

"We really tried to attack it by getting after more discipline and esprit de corps," Frost said.

One new aspect features a series of history vignettes of major battles that the Army has fought in, from Valley Forge in the Revolutionary War all the way to Iraq in Baghdad, Frost said.

"We highlighted those battles; we tied them to Army Values and the Soldier's Creed and highlighted an individual who received the Medal of Honor or other valor award for actions during each battle," Frost said.

"So soldiers will learn across all of Basic Combat Training at all the Army training centers what it means to be a soldier, the history of the United States Army through the battles and the campaign streamers and the wars that we have fought and they will be able to look to and emulate a soldier who executed a valorous act during that war."

The new standardized booklet will be given to each recruit along with their Blue Book at the beginning of training.

Recruits will also learn discipline by doing more practice at a skill that may be as old as soldiering itself -- drill and ceremony.

DRILL AND CEREMONY
When the war began after the attacks of 9/11, the Army decreased its focus on D&C, inspections and other skills that stress attention to detail to make more time for combat skill training.

"There are a lot of folks that say 'we need to go back to the drill and ceremony because we have lost a lot of the discipline aspect of what it means to be a United States Army soldier,'" Frost said.

"It's not like they are going to be sitting out there just doing D&C all the time. The drill and ceremony is going to be interwoven into when they move to and from places ... so the movements won't just be lollygagging, non-tactical movements, they will be actually executing some team drill and ceremony as they move to and from the chow hall and move to and from the barracks."

But the new BCT isn't all about spit and polish, Frost said.

HAMMER, ANVIL, FORGE
"The other big piece we are doing in Basic Combat Training that helps with the esprit de corps and the discipline aspect and also lends a measure of grit and resilience to [BCT] is we have three major field training exercises that we are going to do now. We are calling them the Hammer, the Anvil and the Forge," Frost said, describing how the final Forge FTX is an homage to the Army's historic ties to Valley Forge.

"That is going to be a culminating FTX which is a graduation requirement. It will be an 81-hour field training exercise with about 40 miles of tactical road marching that is conducted through a series of tactical events and mini field training exercises."

The Forge will include a night infiltration course and a medical evacuation mass casualty exercise. There will be ethical dilemmas soldiers have to negotiate as well as a battle march and shoot, a resupply mission which involves moving supplies, ammo, water to a link-up point, patrol base activities, combat patrols as well as an obstacle course, Frost said.

"If you succeed in making it through the 81-hour FTX ... then what will happen is you will earn the right to become a soldier," Frost said. "You will earn your beret, you will earn a 'soldier for life' certificate, you will get your National Defense Service Medal and your uniform will look exactly like a United States Army soldier."

'GET AFTER THE BASICS'
The new BCT POI weeded out "lot of redundant areas and areas that have crept in that did not get after the basics" -- shoot, move, communicate and protect or survive, Frost said.

For weapons qualification, recruits will be required to qualify with backup iron sights instead of just on close-combat optic sights.

Physical fitness standards will also be increased, requiring each soldier to score at least 60 points on all three events of the Army Physical Fitness Test instead of 50 points on each as a graduation standard.

Each recruit will also receive 33 hours of combatives training instead of 22 hours, Frost said.

Recruits will receive an increased amount of tactical combat casualty care training such as basic combat lifesaver.

The course will also teach "some of the basics that we had kind of lost with respect to communications such as basic hand and arm signals, and we have doubled the amount of basic reporting on the radio communications" such as MEDEVAC and similar requests, Frost said.

SOME QUALIFICATIONS NIXED
The new BCT does, however, do away with hand grenade qualification and land navigation course qualification as graduation requirements.

"What we have found is it is taking far, far too much time. It's taking three to four times as much time ... just to qualify folks on the hand grenade course than we had designated so what is happening is it is taking away from other aspects of training," Frost said.

"We are finding that there are a large number of trainees that come in that quite frankly just physically don't have the capacity to throw a hand grenade 20 to 25 to 30 meters. In 10 weeks, we are on a 48-hour period; you are just not going to be able to teach someone how to throw if they haven't thrown growing up."

Recruits will still receive the same amount of training in these areas, Frost said.

"Just because we took it off as a graduation requirement does not mean they won't be conducting hand grenade or land navigation training," Frost said. "They are going to learn all the technical aspects of the hand grenade, and they are going to learn tactical employment and they will throw a live hand grenade.

"With land navigation, it's the same thing they are still going to conduct land navigation training; they are still going to conduct the day course they are still going to conduct the night course."

The new changes to BCT, Frost said, will hopefully make new soldiers better prepared for their advanced individual training, first unit of assignment and result in a lower, new-soldier attrition rate

"If we can get a more physically fit, better prepared, more-disciplined soldier in Basic Combat Training, AIT and [One-Station Unit Training] then we believe we will have less attrition in first unit of assignment," Frost said.

-- Matthew Cox can be reached at matthew.cox@military.com.

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abdsp51
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Posts: 2,529
Unit: Classified

« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2018, 01:34:13 PM »

That was an awesome read.  Much of what the Army as well as other branches are dealing with is what has become societal norms.  Everyone gets a trophy,  everyone is equal and you are entitled to X,Y, and Z. 

I have ran into this a lot with the last couple crops of Airmen I have received from BMT and Tech School.  It's why do I have to do it.  You can't do that and you have to tell me everything.  Stepping away from the basics of D&C and other small tasks (shining boots and pressing uniforms to name a couple) has contributed to what we have today within the DOD. 

I like the thought process behind what the Army is going to and hopefully the AF will follow suit.

While I don't use and consider military.com a reputable source this was still a good read and sums up issues within the DOD.
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darkmatter
Forum Regular

Posts: 121

« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2018, 02:33:29 PM »

I agree but I also think it's a failure on the leaders who complain and fail to remember it's a new generation. They even said if you grow up not knowing how to through we can't teach you how to through a hand gernade. Same thing if they grow up a centen way they BCT can't reteach their look on life to a whole generation
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2018, 02:51:12 PM »

My takeaway is that as leaders of cadets what we do really matters!
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abdsp51
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Posts: 2,529
Unit: Classified

« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2018, 03:35:32 PM »

I agree but I also think it's a failure on the leaders who complain and fail to remember it's a new generation. They even said if you grow up not knowing how to through we can't teach you how to through a hand gernade. Same thing if they grow up a centen way they BCT can't reteach their look on life to a whole generation

Disagree.  It's not a failure on leaders who complain and many do not forget it's a new generation.  It's  a failure on society who has instituted the everyone is equal and participation trophy stance.  Today's generations expects accolades simply for showing up and expect to be coddled.  Unfortunately that is an illusion projected.  Most of today's generation simply do not want to learn anything that doesn't involve instant gratification or outside of some type of screen whether it be a computer or mobile device.  Today's generation simply does not spend enough time being outside and being kids.  It's either Xbox, PlayStation,  Iphone, Snapchat or something else.  Most are way to concerned with who likes them and follows them to really learn anything of use. 

I lead many of today's younger airmen and take into account the differences but at the end of the day if I give an order that is not illegal, unethical nor immoral they are duty bound to follow that order and legally bound to follow it.  And really there should be no further explanation needed.  And how you follow orders outside of the battlefield will generally give a leader a good idea on how someone will follow them on the battlefield or in a crisis. 

To many of today's generation expect the standards and rules to accommodate them and not the other way around.  You know the standard when you enlist if you are unable to meet it or work towards it then don't enlist. 

Plus Basic Training is not there to reteach anything it is there to teach the foundation and standards of military life not reteach life. 
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sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,188

« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2018, 05:33:12 PM »

Here is an interview with MGEN Frost from last October in which he talks about reasons behind some of the changes (he doesn't mention D&C).  https://youtu.be/wvuD5b36ITI

Mike
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CAPLTC
Forum Regular

Posts: 134
Unit: MER

« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2018, 07:02:13 PM »

During the height of the Iraq Surge (07-08), we were taking anyone and giving waivers for everything - even rape.
The crop of new officers who pinned-on 2LT during the Surge are now our Majors.
Standards became fluid during the last administration. For a variety of reasons. Leave your politics at the door, it happened and everyone knows it.
We're seeing the result of a YOLO mentality in our military just as we're trying to incorporate the most morally relativistic generation America has ever seen...
I feel bad for those at the tip of the spear.
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"Find the enemy that wants to end this experiment (in American democracy) and kill every one of them until theyíre so sick of the killing that they leave us and our freedoms intact." -- SECDEF Mattis
OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2018, 10:17:35 PM »

Standards became fluid during the last administration. For a variety of reasons. Leave your politics at the door, it happened and everyone knows it.

What were those reasons?
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2018, 10:29:14 PM »

I agree but I also think it's a failure on the leaders who complain and fail to remember it's a new generation. They even said if you grow up not knowing how to through we can't teach you how to through a hand gernade. Same thing if they grow up a centen way they BCT can't reteach their look on life to a whole generation

Disagree.  It's not a failure on leaders who complain and many do not forget it's a new generation.  It's  a failure on society who has instituted the everyone is equal and participation trophy stance.  Today's generations expects accolades simply for showing up and expect to be coddled.  Unfortunately that is an illusion projected.  Most of today's generation simply do not want to learn anything that doesn't involve instant gratification or outside of some type of screen whether it be a computer or mobile device.  Today's generation simply does not spend enough time being outside and being kids.  It's either Xbox, PlayStation,  Iphone, Snapchat or something else.  Most are way to concerned with who likes them and follows them to really learn anything of use. 

I lead many of today's younger airmen and take into account the differences but at the end of the day if I give an order that is not illegal, unethical nor immoral they are duty bound to follow that order and legally bound to follow it.  And really there should be no further explanation needed.  And how you follow orders outside of the battlefield will generally give a leader a good idea on how someone will follow them on the battlefield or in a crisis. 

To many of today's generation expect the standards and rules to accommodate them and not the other way around.  You know the standard when you enlist if you are unable to meet it or work towards it then don't enlist. 

Plus Basic Training is not there to reteach anything it is there to teach the foundation and standards of military life not reteach life.

I don't fully agree. 

I think that the job of someone who is responsible for teaching or training has the obligation to figure out what THEY have to do to open up a student to the material that is to be taught.  Leadership has drastically changed over the last few decades.  The old adage of "do what I say because I say" no longer works.  As someone who employees, almost exclusively, this "entitled" generation, I think you are missing their great potential if you decide to NOT change how you manage and how you lead based on THEIR needs.  I've worked with people of ALL generations and none of them are as loyal and as dedicated to the mission as this generation is ONCE you find out how to teach them what you need, motivate them and get them to buy in to the mission.

The responsibility for training is on YOU, not them.
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2018, 10:30:53 PM »

In EVERY generation, society has instilled some trait or feature in the youth of that generation that previous generations held disdain for.  Yet, the US Military has always found a way to remove those traits or to teach and train around them.  What makes this generation any different?
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abdsp51
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,529
Unit: Classified

« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2018, 10:32:55 PM »

I agree but I also think it's a failure on the leaders who complain and fail to remember it's a new generation. They even said if you grow up not knowing how to through we can't teach you how to through a hand gernade. Same thing if they grow up a centen way they BCT can't reteach their look on life to a whole generation

Disagree.  It's not a failure on leaders who complain and many do not forget it's a new generation.  It's  a failure on society who has instituted the everyone is equal and participation trophy stance.  Today's generations expects accolades simply for showing up and expect to be coddled.  Unfortunately that is an illusion projected.  Most of today's generation simply do not want to learn anything that doesn't involve instant gratification or outside of some type of screen whether it be a computer or mobile device.  Today's generation simply does not spend enough time being outside and being kids.  It's either Xbox, PlayStation,  Iphone, Snapchat or something else.  Most are way to concerned with who likes them and follows them to really learn anything of use. 

I lead many of today's younger airmen and take into account the differences but at the end of the day if I give an order that is not illegal, unethical nor immoral they are duty bound to follow that order and legally bound to follow it.  And really there should be no further explanation needed.  And how you follow orders outside of the battlefield will generally give a leader a good idea on how someone will follow them on the battlefield or in a crisis. 

To many of today's generation expect the standards and rules to accommodate them and not the other way around.  You know the standard when you enlist if you are unable to meet it or work towards it then don't enlist. 

Plus Basic Training is not there to reteach anything it is there to teach the foundation and standards of military life not reteach life.

I don't fully agree. 

I think that the job of someone who is responsible for teaching or training has the obligation to figure out what THEY have to do to open up a student to the material that is to be taught.  Leadership has drastically changed over the last few decades.  The old adage of "do what I say because I say" no longer works.  As someone who employees, almost exclusively, this "entitled" generation, I think you are missing their great potential if you decide to NOT change how you manage and how you lead based on THEIR needs.  I've worked with people of ALL generations and none of them are as loyal and as dedicated to the mission as this generation is ONCE you find out how to teach them what you need, motivate them and get them to buy in to the mission.

The responsibility for training is on YOU, not them.

Have you ever been in combat or served? If not you don't know what your talking about. 
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2018, 10:35:08 PM »

I agree but I also think it's a failure on the leaders who complain and fail to remember it's a new generation. They even said if you grow up not knowing how to through we can't teach you how to through a hand gernade. Same thing if they grow up a centen way they BCT can't reteach their look on life to a whole generation

Disagree.  It's not a failure on leaders who complain and many do not forget it's a new generation.  It's  a failure on society who has instituted the everyone is equal and participation trophy stance.  Today's generations expects accolades simply for showing up and expect to be coddled.  Unfortunately that is an illusion projected.  Most of today's generation simply do not want to learn anything that doesn't involve instant gratification or outside of some type of screen whether it be a computer or mobile device.  Today's generation simply does not spend enough time being outside and being kids.  It's either Xbox, PlayStation,  Iphone, Snapchat or something else.  Most are way to concerned with who likes them and follows them to really learn anything of use. 

I lead many of today's younger airmen and take into account the differences but at the end of the day if I give an order that is not illegal, unethical nor immoral they are duty bound to follow that order and legally bound to follow it.  And really there should be no further explanation needed.  And how you follow orders outside of the battlefield will generally give a leader a good idea on how someone will follow them on the battlefield or in a crisis. 

To many of today's generation expect the standards and rules to accommodate them and not the other way around.  You know the standard when you enlist if you are unable to meet it or work towards it then don't enlist. 

Plus Basic Training is not there to reteach anything it is there to teach the foundation and standards of military life not reteach life.

I don't fully agree. 

I think that the job of someone who is responsible for teaching or training has the obligation to figure out what THEY have to do to open up a student to the material that is to be taught.  Leadership has drastically changed over the last few decades.  The old adage of "do what I say because I say" no longer works.  As someone who employees, almost exclusively, this "entitled" generation, I think you are missing their great potential if you decide to NOT change how you manage and how you lead based on THEIR needs.  I've worked with people of ALL generations and none of them are as loyal and as dedicated to the mission as this generation is ONCE you find out how to teach them what you need, motivate them and get them to buy in to the mission.

The responsibility for training is on YOU, not them.

Have you ever been in combat or served? If not you don't know what your talking about.

Yeah, ok.
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2018, 10:40:26 PM »

From Gen. Colin Powell's "13 Leadership Rules:"

"Rule 4: It Can be Done!

Leaders are about making things happen.  They continually ask, Why Not, when faced with the improbable.  While one approach may not work, it can be done another way.  Find the other way to make it happen!"

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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,085

« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2018, 11:02:53 PM »

From Gen. Colin Powell's "13 Leadership Rules:"

"Rule 4: It Can be Done!

Leaders are about making things happen.  They continually ask, Why Not, when faced with the improbable.  While one approach may not work, it can be done another way.  Find the other way to make it happen!"

Okay, you can look up and post quotes of famous people. Now how about a way to deal with the "entitled" millennials?
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2018, 11:05:11 PM »

I think the army is on the right track. Start with the basics. One advantage of Drill and Ceremonies is that obedience is expected and back talk has no natural opening. Get them used to following - it is a start towards the warrior mentality.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2018, 11:06:16 PM »

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself. I am an expert and I am a professional. I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy, the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2018, 11:19:21 PM »

From Gen. Colin Powell's "13 Leadership Rules:"

"Rule 4: It Can be Done!

Leaders are about making things happen.  They continually ask, Why Not, when faced with the improbable.  While one approach may not work, it can be done another way.  Find the other way to make it happen!"

Okay, you can look up and post quotes of famous people. Now how about a way to deal with the "entitled" millennials?

I think the Army has some good ideas that is putting them on a track that will likely to be successful with dealing with the sense of entitlement.

I wasn't disagreeing with the Army's approach or with the article.  I was disagreeing with absdp51's unproductive and ridiculous attitude of blaming millennials when it's the LEADER's job to overcome obstacles.  If you can't lead your team to do what you need to do it, it IS your fault, not theirs.

"I lead many of today's younger airmen and take into account the differences but at the end of the day if I give an order that is not illegal, unethical nor immoral they are duty bound to follow that order and legally bound to follow it.  And really there should be no further explanation needed.  And how you follow orders outside of the battlefield will generally give a leader a good idea on how someone will follow them on the battlefield or in a crisis."

1. If they aren't abiding by your lawful order, it's because YOU haven't instilled the need in them to do so.
2. You're correct that there "should be" no further explanation needed, but many times (especially with this generation,) explaining the WHY goes a lot farther to getting buy-in than "because I said so."

Just my thoughts from years of Civilian Leadership.  Of course, since I've never served or seen combat, I don't know what I'm talking about.

YMMV
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2018, 11:46:28 PM »

I am an American Airman.
I am a Warrior.
I have answered my Nationís call.
I am an American Airman.
My mission is to Fly, Fight, and Win.
I am faithful to a Proud Heritage,
A Tradition of Honor,
And a Legacy of Valor.
I am an American Airman.
Guardian of Freedom and Justice,
My Nationís Sword and Shield,
Its Sentry and Avenger.
I defend my Country with my Life.
I am an American Airman.
Wingman, Leader, Warrior.
I will never leave an Airman behind,
I will never falter,
And I will not fail.
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PHall
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,085

« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2018, 12:45:39 AM »

From Gen. Colin Powell's "13 Leadership Rules:"

"Rule 4: It Can be Done!

Leaders are about making things happen.  They continually ask, Why Not, when faced with the improbable.  While one approach may not work, it can be done another way.  Find the other way to make it happen!"

Okay, you can look up and post quotes of famous people. Now how about a way to deal with the "entitled" millennials?

I think the Army has some good ideas that is putting them on a track that will likely to be successful with dealing with the sense of entitlement.

I wasn't disagreeing with the Army's approach or with the article.  I was disagreeing with absdp51's unproductive and ridiculous attitude of blaming millennials when it's the LEADER's job to overcome obstacles.  If you can't lead your team to do what you need to do it, it IS your fault, not theirs.

"I lead many of today's younger airmen and take into account the differences but at the end of the day if I give an order that is not illegal, unethical nor immoral they are duty bound to follow that order and legally bound to follow it.  And really there should be no further explanation needed.  And how you follow orders outside of the battlefield will generally give a leader a good idea on how someone will follow them on the battlefield or in a crisis."

1. If they aren't abiding by your lawful order, it's because YOU haven't instilled the need in them to do so.
2. You're correct that there "should be" no further explanation needed, but many times (especially with this generation,) explaining the WHY goes a lot farther to getting buy-in than "because I said so."

Just my thoughts from years of Civilian Leadership.  Of course, since I've never served or seen combat, I don't know what I'm talking about.

YMMV


Disobeying your civilian boss can only get you fired. Disobeying your military boss can send you to jail.
And that folks is the difference between military and civilian life. The stakes are much higher in the military.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2018, 12:49:40 AM »

From Gen. Colin Powell's "13 Leadership Rules:"

"Rule 4: It Can be Done!

Leaders are about making things happen.  They continually ask, Why Not, when faced with the improbable.  While one approach may not work, it can be done another way.  Find the other way to make it happen!"

Okay, you can look up and post quotes of famous people. Now how about a way to deal with the "entitled" millennials?

I think the Army has some good ideas that is putting them on a track that will likely to be successful with dealing with the sense of entitlement.

I wasn't disagreeing with the Army's approach or with the article.  I was disagreeing with absdp51's unproductive and ridiculous attitude of blaming millennials when it's the LEADER's job to overcome obstacles.  If you can't lead your team to do what you need to do it, it IS your fault, not theirs.

"I lead many of today's younger airmen and take into account the differences but at the end of the day if I give an order that is not illegal, unethical nor immoral they are duty bound to follow that order and legally bound to follow it.  And really there should be no further explanation needed.  And how you follow orders outside of the battlefield will generally give a leader a good idea on how someone will follow them on the battlefield or in a crisis."

1. If they aren't abiding by your lawful order, it's because YOU haven't instilled the need in them to do so.
2. You're correct that there "should be" no further explanation needed, but many times (especially with this generation,) explaining the WHY goes a lot farther to getting buy-in than "because I said so."

Just my thoughts from years of Civilian Leadership.  Of course, since I've never served or seen combat, I don't know what I'm talking about.

YMMV


Disobeying your civilian boss can only get you fired. Disobeying your military boss can send you to jail.
And that folks is the difference between military and civilian life. The stakes are much higher in the military.

Worse, in combat lives are at stake.
Logged
OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2018, 12:51:14 AM »

I was disagreeing with absdp51's unproductive and ridiculous attitude of blaming millennials when it's the LEADER's job to overcome obstacles.

And yet the culture is the issue. You impute blame, I see facts.
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 12:52:35 AM »

From Gen. Colin Powell's "13 Leadership Rules:"

"Rule 4: It Can be Done!

Leaders are about making things happen.  They continually ask, Why Not, when faced with the improbable.  While one approach may not work, it can be done another way.  Find the other way to make it happen!"

Okay, you can look up and post quotes of famous people. Now how about a way to deal with the "entitled" millennials?

I think the Army has some good ideas that is putting them on a track that will likely to be successful with dealing with the sense of entitlement.

I wasn't disagreeing with the Army's approach or with the article.  I was disagreeing with absdp51's unproductive and ridiculous attitude of blaming millennials when it's the LEADER's job to overcome obstacles.  If you can't lead your team to do what you need to do it, it IS your fault, not theirs.

"I lead many of today's younger airmen and take into account the differences but at the end of the day if I give an order that is not illegal, unethical nor immoral they are duty bound to follow that order and legally bound to follow it.  And really there should be no further explanation needed.  And how you follow orders outside of the battlefield will generally give a leader a good idea on how someone will follow them on the battlefield or in a crisis."

1. If they aren't abiding by your lawful order, it's because YOU haven't instilled the need in them to do so.
2. You're correct that there "should be" no further explanation needed, but many times (especially with this generation,) explaining the WHY goes a lot farther to getting buy-in than "because I said so."

Just my thoughts from years of Civilian Leadership.  Of course, since I've never served or seen combat, I don't know what I'm talking about.

YMMV


Disobeying your civilian boss can only get you fired. Disobeying your military boss can send you to jail.
And that folks is the difference between military and civilian life. The stakes are much higher in the military.

Couldn't agree more.  That's why it's so important for the US Military to find a way to properly instill the discipline needed in this generation of Americans.  :D
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 12:59:35 AM »

I was disagreeing with absdp51's unproductive and ridiculous attitude of blaming millennials when it's the LEADER's job to overcome obstacles.

And yet the culture is the issue. You impute blame, I see facts.

It doesn't matter one bit if the culture is the issue.  That is something that you, nor I, nor absdp15, nor the US Military has control over.  There are times when the root cause is within your control.  This is not one of those times.  The only thing within the control of the US Military is how they change their training curriculum to address it.

Currently working my way through OBC.  The section about "Implementing Change" discusses how one should constantly be seeking change in an effort to continually improve.  This generation encompasses Americans aged 18-30.  So the US Military has been enlisting this generation for 12 years.  Have they failed to constantly seek change in BTC in an effort to continually improve BTC?  Why is this just now becoming an issue they address?
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 01:09:26 AM »

  Why is this just now becoming an issue they address?
Standards became fluid during the last administration. For a variety of reasons. Leave your politics at the door, it happened and everyone knows it.
Maybe because - for whatever reason - the last administration chose to relax standards, BADLY. Now we are starting to address them again.
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 01:16:30 AM »

  Why is this just now becoming an issue they address?
Standards became fluid during the last administration. For a variety of reasons. Leave your politics at the door, it happened and everyone knows it.
Maybe because - for whatever reason - the last administration chose to relax standards, BADLY. Now we are starting to address them again.

Yeah, I would disagree.  If the military has had experience with recruiting and training this generation for 12 years, than it would have been the administration BEFORE the last administration when the issue began.
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 01:30:36 AM »

Yeah, I would disagree.  If the military has had experience with recruiting and training this generation for 12 years, than it would have been the administration BEFORE the last administration when the issue began.
Maybe, but so what? The issue is that the culture changed, and as a country our answer was to sequester funds, cut budgets and lower standards. Now we are addressing that. To quote another poster, check your politics - and (my words) deal with the facts. We have a problem.

BTW as leaders of cadets, we have a real opportunity and - I would argue - a solemn obligation - to be part of the solution.

Some of our teen charges will serve, and some will go into harms way. We owe them our very best. IMHO. YMMV.
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Fester
Forum Regular

Posts: 171

« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 01:39:22 AM »

Yeah, I would disagree.  If the military has had experience with recruiting and training this generation for 12 years, than it would have been the administration BEFORE the last administration when the issue began.
Maybe, but so what? The issue is that the culture changed, and as a country our answer was to sequester funds, cut budgets and lower standards. Now we are addressing that. To quote another poster, check your politics - and (my words) deal with the facts. We have a problem.

BTW as leaders of cadets, we have a real opportunity and - I would argue - a solemn obligation - to be part of the solution.

Some of our teen charges will serve, and some will go into harms way. We owe them our very best. IMHO. YMMV.

So bringing politics into it is fine as long as they're YOUR politics.  Got it.  Have a good night, sir.  :D
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OldGuy
Seasoned Member

Posts: 376
Unit: TBKS

« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 01:43:02 AM »

So bringing politics into it is fine as long as they're YOUR politics.  Got it.  Have a good night, sir.  :D
Nope. None by me. That you impute same suggests something about you. I was quoting another poster. You seemingly chose to make it personal. Odd.
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SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,337
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 01:55:44 AM »

Are we done measuring here?

Click.
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Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
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