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Eclipse
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« Reply #60 on: December 31, 2017, 02:00:04 PM »

CAP does not, "compete" with JROTC, different goals, funding, and reasons for joining.

In my experience if is just as uneven, or worse in some cases, then CAP because many schools
allow it as either an elective, or in place of gym, and kids take it as seriously as they do one of those classes.

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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,221

« Reply #61 on: December 31, 2017, 02:51:49 PM »

CAP does not, "compete" with JROTC, different goals, funding, and reasons for joining.

In my experience if is just as uneven, or worse in some cases, then CAP because many schools
allow it as either an elective, or in place of gym, and kids take it as seriously as they do one of those classes.

Well I've been a senior member for over 2 years now and the difference is still murky and nebulous as can be to me. If some kid asks me which is better if he has military goals, I don't have a clue ... so we can be assured the general public out there doesn't know either.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #62 on: December 31, 2017, 04:53:12 PM »

CAP does not, "compete" with JROTC, different goals, funding, and reasons for joining.

In my experience if is just as uneven, or worse in some cases, then CAP because many schools
allow it as either an elective, or in place of gym, and kids take it as seriously as they do one of those classes.

Well I've been a senior member for over 2 years now and the difference is still murky and nebulous as can be to me. If some kid asks me which is better if he has military goals, I don't have a clue ... so we can be assured the general public out there doesn't know either.

I think that's pretty accurate. And that's something that both organizations can help facilitate---pointing someone in the right direction. I do think, however, CAP can offer much more insight into non-military career paths.

Eclipse makes a good point about schools using AFJROTC as an elective, and I don't think their cadets necessarily take it as seriously as CAP, just in my own experiences, because a lot of them use it to get out of class or as an after-school activity and not a commitment. Sure, we'll always have cadets who don't take CAP seriously, and that's usually because they joined the wrong organization and really don't "get it." We had quite a bit of ROTC cadets who were prior CAP and JROTC. The former CAP cadets had a much greater interest in a military commitment in ROTC than the JROTC cadets did. There were a handful that stayed in to earn a commission, but the CAP cadets saw CAP as a tool to progress into a career. I don't know if that's a CAP-ism or just happened by chance. I kind of see CAP as a stronger component in the grand scheme of things because it really is a program where you make it your own to some degree. Although there are still some aspects I have my own reservations about, and maybe that's more of a Wing thing than a CAP thing.

I disagree, though, that CAP does not compete with JROTC. Absolutely, as well as other youth organizations. Most cadets don't join because they wanted to be in CAP more than anything; it was marketed to them at the local level as the better alternative than other options, if they even researched other options. We have a cadet whose brother is a Sea Cadet; mom is the VFW Commander and prior Air Force. She got her kids into both, but pushed them to the organization they leaned toward. I appreciate that entirely. But I see the majority of recruits that walk in the door with almost no exposure to any other similar organization. They just happened to "find it," and they generally meaning the parents.

...way strayed from the OP.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #63 on: December 31, 2017, 06:25:44 PM »

How does a CAP Cadet entering college and going AFROTC ... compare to a AFJROTC high schooler entering college and going AFROTC?

In my limited experience, I see little difference. The best course of action for either cadet is to participate, taking advantage of experience and knowledge, and keeping their mouth SHUT. Saying "when I was in [CAP|JROTC]" is a speedy way to generate a negative opinion from your peers and superiors. Don't tell them; show them quietly.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #64 on: December 31, 2017, 07:43:34 PM »

It doesn't always have to be either/or. Currently we have at least four cadets who are dual AFJROTC/CAP members, and often dual members who have time to devote to CAP are exceptionally sharp cadets.

Not sure how CAP v. JROTC is related to transgender accommodations, though.
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Lakeshore-CAP-Ret
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Unit: W-MICH

« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2018, 11:35:34 PM »

This whole issue of transgenderism is going to open up a Pandora's box of issues that are going to have to be dealt with.  I see lawsuits a plenty in the future.  The issue of PT that Eclipse brings up is a valid one and just one of many that will arise.

MG

Care to provide evidence for said claim?  Or why your opinion has any validity?  Or provide examples of the ďlawsuits a plentyĒ?


No lawsuits, just lost mbrship.  Call us narrow minded, but several families I recruited fm left the program, same with scouting (yes, these where church families).  Those who feel this is immoral i.e., sinful, will not try to change these programs, weíll just leave; something that is going on.  Just like the active military (which has confiscated bibles and dictated to chaplains what parts of the Bible they canít speak on (which are several regarding this issue), mbrship will drop.  No harm, no foul. No one will try to force their views on anyone, nor should they.  Just leave or donít join, which is now happening.  No need for lawsuits since the military allows it.


Btw, the AMA reports that over 70 % of the transgendered revert to their birth identity within 10 years of their conversation.


Only time and common sense will straighten this out.  Ignoring this issue and pretend there is no issue will see in time will effect our cadet and senior mbrship.  Already the scouts have competing organizations but CAP canít have competing organizations. So, I envision the organization just dying (I donít wish for that but I see it coming),
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MAJ DAVID J. D'ARCY, CAP (Ret) 8 Apr 2018
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LSThiker
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« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2018, 12:58:49 AM »

Those who feel this is immoral i.e., sinful, will not try to change these programs, weíll just leave;

That is their choice.  There are plenty of other organizations out there that are willing to take them.  CAP is also willing to "take them back" as well should they change their minds.

 
Quote
Just like the active military (which has confiscated bibles and dictated to chaplains what parts of the Bible they canít speak on (which are several regarding this issue), mbrship will drop.

Got a real reference for this?  Never saw this, nor heard of any chaplains or military personnel confiscating personal bibles from Soldiers.  I doubt military membership dropped because "confiscated bibles and dictated chaplains". Or are you speaking of the 2009 "bible burning" at Bagram AB in which a church published bibles in Pashto and Dari and distributed them to Soldiers so that they could convert Afghan Muslims to Christianity?  If so, the military strictly forbids the proselytizing of religion by any of its Soldiers (to include Chaplains) as a duty.  Interestingly, it was the Chaplain Corps that confiscated the bibles and burned them, not the general Army.

Quote
Btw, the AMA reports that over 70 % of the transgendered revert to their birth identity within 10 years of their conversation.

Got a reference for this?  I cannot seem to recall any official statement by the AMA in recent years that suggests otherwise.  Nor was I able to find any on their website.  Of course, there are individual cases of "sex change regret", but I am unable to find any statement by the AMA.


Quote
So, I envision the organization just dying (I donít wish for that but I see it coming),

I highly doubt that people leaving due to CAP accepting transgender members will cause the organization to die.  The organization is more at risk from over policying itself and under performing than people leaving due to transgenderism. 
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stillamarine
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« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2018, 01:56:29 PM »

Just like the active military (which has confiscated bibles and dictated to chaplains what parts of the Bible they canít speak on (which are several regarding this issue), mbrship will drop.

What are you talking about??????? I was given a bible at least a dozen times by the military. I never heard of a Chaplain being restricted on what they could preach.
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

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sarmed1
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Posts: 932

« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2018, 04:12:58 PM »

I find it strange that people are leaving over this (dont get me wrong, I am not mocking someones religious/social beliefs over the issue) This is different from the BSA in that there was an outright ban on homosexual membership.  Or other than adult leader positions you could not join a cub or boy scout troop as a female.  Its not like the organization just threw up a huge billboard national marketing campaign to recruit transgender membership.  More so they clarified that if you are, they are not going to make it difficult for you to be the you you feel you are. 
Sure there are going to be a handful of current members that are going to one day start showing up in a different uniform/appearance.  OK I get that, awkward for some people. But, for the average new cadet coming into the organization I dont know how you would really know.  If Kelly shows up to join and looks like and says she is a girl, I dont think anyone is going to argue and demand she come into the office and prove it.

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
Eclipse
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« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2018, 04:33:26 PM »

If Kelly shows up to join and looks like and says she is a girl, I dont think anyone is going to argue and demand she come into the office and prove it.

The potential cadet's membership documents have to match what they represent.

The world doesn't have to know, but a number of key people in the unit do.

Also, no one is quitting CAP over this.

No.

One.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2018, 05:07:50 PM »

If Kelly shows up to join and looks like and says she is a girl, I dont think anyone is going to argue and demand she come into the office and prove it.

The potential cadet's membership documents have to match what they represent.

The world doesn't have to know, but a number of key people in the unit do.

Also, no one is quitting CAP over this.

No.

One.

Eclipse, careful.  That may be true in your neck of the woods but not necessarily the case in other wings.  There very well could be people leaving because of it you just may/are not privy to it..
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Eclipse
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« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2018, 05:22:03 PM »

I knew that when I typed it.

That's not to say this situation doesn't pose potentially significant issues for some units, and
activities, but if it causes you angst in a CAP context, enough that would have you actually quit,
there's the door, you must have missed the Level 1 lessons and the EO and Non-D information.

Meanwhile, the adults in the room will take care of things.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2018, 07:18:34 PM »

I knew that when I typed it.

That's not to say this situation doesn't pose potentially significant issues for some units, and
activities, but if it causes you angst in a CAP context, enough that would have you actually quit,
there's the door, you must have missed the Level 1 lessons and the EO and Non-D information.

Meanwhile, the adults in the room will take care of things.

Eclipse, EO and Non-D are a moot point if having transgender members goes against one's values.  Then the member is under no obligation to stay.  If they stay they are under the obligation to apply those policies to the fullest extent regardless of their beliefs and values.  If someone chooses to leave CAP because allowing transgender members in is conflict with their values so be it.
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CAPLTC
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« Reply #73 on: January 07, 2018, 11:27:53 AM »

No lawsuits, just lost mbrship.  Call us narrow minded, but several families I recruited fm left the program, same with scouting (yes, these where church families).  Those who feel this is immoral i.e., sinful, will not try to change these programs, weíll just leave; something that is going on.  Just like the active military (which has confiscated bibles and dictated to chaplains what parts of the Bible they canít speak on (which are several regarding this issue), mbrship will drop.  No harm, no foul. No one will try to force their views on anyone, nor should they.  Just leave or donít join, which is now happening.  No need for lawsuits since the military allows it.
Btw, the AMA reports that over 70 % of the transgendered revert to their birth identity within 10 years of their conversation.
Only time and common sense will straighten this out.  Ignoring this issue and pretend there is no issue will see in time will effect our cadet and senior mbrship.  Already the scouts have competing organizations but CAP canít have competing organizations. So, I envision the organization just dying (I donít wish for that but I see it coming),

Well said.
Very well said.
ďA civilization that can thus succumb to its vanquished enemy, must first have become so degenerate, that neither its appointed priests and teachers, nor anybody else, has the capacity, or will take the trouble, to stand up for it.Ē
ó John Stuart Mill, On Liberty
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Ned
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Posts: 2,195

« Reply #74 on: January 07, 2018, 03:12:26 PM »


No lawsuits, just lost mbrship.

We track membership stats pretty carefully, and based on what I've seen I doubt we will see a measureable drop based on our accommodating some of our membership.  But I suppose you could be right.  Undoubtedly some members quit as soon as a minority member joins their squadron.  Or a woman becomes the squadron commander.  Or an openly gay wing commander.  Or whatever they find so unacceptable that they can no longer volunteer to serve their community, state, and nation.

Quote
Btw, the AMA reports that over 70 % of the transgendered revert to their birth identity within 10 years of their conversation.

Again, you may be right.  It can't be easy to even attempt such a thing in a world of people who would judge an individual simply by the way they dress, rather than by who they are or what they do with their lives.


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sarmed1
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Posts: 932

« Reply #75 on: January 07, 2018, 06:14:04 PM »

If Kelly shows up to join and looks like and says she is a girl, I dont think anyone is going to argue and demand she come into the office and prove it.

The potential cadet's membership documents have to match what they represent.

The world doesn't have to know, but a number of key people in the unit do.

...
School ID, School report card (column B) & Column C Social Security Card.  Neither of which may or have to have the gender on it.

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
TSgt USAFR
Eclipse
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Posts: 28,948

« Reply #76 on: January 07, 2018, 06:40:31 PM »

True - however a cadet is required to declare a gender, and if there is a question
would need to substantiate the declaration, which I will grant you may be getting
complicated in some states, which is why any issues I had to deal with would be
immediately kicked to NHQ (discreetly).
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,402

« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2018, 11:25:17 AM »

And once one's gender is declared on the membership application, and it shows in eServices, that's the gender that we're running with.

They will adhere to the uniform standards for that gender. They will meet the fitness standards for that gender. They will house/bunk and share hygiene facilities with that gender.

That last one is where I can see people having an issue. But accommodations can be made for those situations. You can talk morality all you want for either side of the coin with this subject, but the moment you have a cadet with male genitalia in a locker room with a cadet with female genitalia, your and my personal opinions regardless, you have to acknowledge that there may be a level of criticism by another cadet or parent that is beyond the control of their emotions/opinions on our part. We can't control how someone else feels.

That said, we can respectfully tell that individual to get over it, it is what it is, and if they don't like it they can leave; or we can try to make some level of accommodation that allows everyone to participate, and there will still be a certain level of awkwardness and even segregation because of it. There is no perfect scenario here unless everyone involved is 100% okay with it.

Unlike the matter of homosexuality, in which case nobody would ever know unless you said something or acted in a way expressive of same sex admiration (i.e., flirting with a member of the same sex), with transgenderism, there is a certain level of physical distinction that might make it obvious. I would bet in most cases there may be suspicions or uncertainty, but until formally declared by someone, you'd never know without seeing it for yourself.

In any case, back to the very beginning of my post here: Uniform and fitness standards must be adhered to. If your CAP ID says you are a male, then you need to meet the standards for a male. If your CAP ID says you are a female, then you need to meet the standards for a female. You cannot bounce back and forth between the two. Your gender, whether biological or self-identified---whatever your profile says---sets the standard that you will meet.
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deepblue1947
Member

Posts: 54
Unit: LA-076

« Reply #78 on: January 08, 2018, 11:25:51 AM »

One can debate this topic forever but if you don't think this is going to result in a reduction in membership, you have to be living in an alternate universe.  It will and it has.

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etodd
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,221

« Reply #79 on: January 08, 2018, 12:20:05 PM »


School ID, School report card (column B) & Column C Social Security Card.  Neither of which may or have to have the gender on it.


When signing up for Encampment, leadership has to know whether they are sleeping in the boys tent or the girls tent.

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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: Transgender
 


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