Do you have to shine boots for ABU's

Just until now, I've been under the impression that boots have to be shined for both ABU's and BDU's, since both my flight sergeant and my flight commander have enforced these regulations. I've heard from hear-say that this isn't necessary to.

*I HAVE SEARCHED AND SEARCHED USING THE SEARCH FEATURE ALREADY*

Yes you have to shine them. They're the same boots you wore with the BDU's.

6.4. Footwear.
6.4.1.4. Boots. Black combat boots will be without design and can be worn with the service
dress and service uniforms. They will be highly polished, high gloss or patent leather.

I'll just add here, that if your commander issues a directive (provided that it is legal, ethical, and safe), you should probably follow it.

Saying "XoCAPDuDeXo on the internet said I don't have to," is not going to win you any points with your higher-ups.

I'll just add here, that if your commander issues a directive (provided that it is legal, ethical, and safe), you should probably follow it.

Saying "XoCAPDuDeXo on the internet said I don't have to," is not going to win you any points with your higher-ups.

That is true but in this case it would be an unlawful order since a commander can't go against regulations.

JFKSpotting, you ask a ton of questions that a quick look in a reg or an email to your chain of command could answer.  I highly encourage you to talk to your chain of command (cadet and Senior Member) to get answers to your questions if you can't find them in regulations.

[fixed quote]

6.4. Footwear.
6.4.1.4. Boots. Black combat boots will be without design and can be worn with the service
dress and service uniforms. They will be highly polished, high gloss or patent leather.

That's only in regards to the Service dress and Blues. They only need to be in good repair for ABU/BDU.

6.4. Footwear.
6.4.1.4. Boots. Black combat boots will be without design and can be worn with the service
dress and service uniforms. They will be highly polished, high gloss or patent leather.

That's only in regards to the Service dress and Blues. They only need to be in good repair for ABU/BDU.

And good repair means black and shiny.

6.4. Footwear.
6.4.1.4. Boots. Black combat boots will be without design and can be worn with the service
dress and service uniforms. They will be highly polished, high gloss or patent leather.

That's only in regards to the Service dress and Blues. They only need to be in good repair for ABU/BDU.

And good repair means black and shiny.

I think you dropped this: "/s"

But seriously. If the gods that be wanted the same level of shine, or any level of shine on ABU/BDU combat boots as they do with Service Dress combat boots, then they would have worded it very similarly  to the chapter quoted above.

They don't need to be spit shined. I spend ten minutes once a month to keep my 25+ yo boots in acceptable condition. Brush off the dirt, slap on a coat of polish, brush, buff, and good until next time.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

Oh, and they get a dye job once a year.

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What about black boots that aren't meant to be shined?

I've got my eye on a couple (one Danner and one Lowa) that are non-polishable. If I have to wear boots that look stupid with ABUs, I might as well get the low-maintenance aspect of sage boots.

Emphasis mine -

CAPR 39-1
6.4.3. Footwear (males/females) Combat boots. Will be worn with the BDU, or the flight duty
uniform. Black, with or without safety toe, plain rounded toe or rounded capped toe with or without
perforated seam. Zipper or elastic inserts optional, mesh inserts (for “jungle boot” style) are optional;
smooth or scotch-grained leather or man-made material, and may have a high gloss or patent finish. The
black combat boot can be worn (optional) with the service dress and service uniforms when not wearing a
skirt, maternity service dress and/or maternity jumper. Laces will either be tied and tucked in the boot or
tied and wrapped around the boot. No bowtie bootlaces will be visible. Any logos will be the same color
as the boot.

ABU Wear Memorandum updated effective 24 October 2016:
"Footwear. Black combat boots."

So, let's add some definitions:
Patent leather - is a type of coated leather that has a very glossy, shiny finish.
High Gloss - A surface shininess or luster. 2. A kind of paint that dries to a shiny finish.
and lastly...
"May" - v. a choice to act or not, or a promise of a possibility, as distinguished from "shall," which makes it imperative.

So, you MAY have shiny boots, but it's not necessarily a requirement. {edit: the sentence could also be interpreted to say that you MAY choose option one OR option 2, either high gloss OR patent finish} That being said, shoe polish does many good things for boots and I highly recommend polishing them. I don't shine mine to bounce lasers off them and hit the moon. I simply shine enough to protect. If you want to go full black mirrors, so be it.

What about black boots that aren't meant to be shined?

I've got my eye on a couple (one Danner and one Lowa) that are non-polishable. If I have to wear boots that look stupid with ABUs, I might as well get the low-maintenance aspect of sage boots.

Well the Updated ABU Authorization Letter just says "Black Combat Boots". Which is exactly what is authorized in the current 39-1 for BDU's.
So if you can legally wear them with BDU's then they're good for wear in ABU's too.

I'll just add here, that if your commander issues a directive (provided that it is legal, ethical, and safe), you should probably follow it.

Saying "XoCAPDuDeXo on the internet said I don't have to," is not going to win you any points with your higher-ups.

That is true but in this case it would be an unlawful order since a commander can't go against regulations.

Wait, what?
How would shining you boots violate regulations?

The "Wear Instructions" state:
 "Footwear. Black combat boot"

That's all.
Polishing your boots is basic maintenance. It keeps the leather serviceable, and aids in keeping water out.
It's certainly doesn't violate the stringent and detailed regulatory requirements of being both "black" and a "combat boot".

If they are shine-able, shine them, if they are tactical mat finish, keep them clean.

I use regular polish for 5-10 minutes for the shiney jump boots once a year, Windex on the Corfams,
and Dr. Bailey's on the tac boots.  If I've spent more then a couple hours total in 18 years making boots look
nice I would be surprised. If you're using a lighter, alcohol, side dressing, or any of the other cadet time wasters
you need to find a better way to burn your day, like checking the height of the grass hourly.

I get the social / team building aspect of the nightly boot epoxy, so whatever, but beyond that, it's not necessary.

Sage is never going to happen.

Next old problem solved via search, Google, or asking your CC first.

And FWIW, I have seen someone put what was essentially a mirror shine on tac boots.

It was impressive on a number of levels, not all of them positive.

Sage is never going to happen.

Care for a little side bet on that?

Sage is never going to happen.

Care for a little side bet on that?

Oh man... I wanna take that bet.... but I also want sage boots, mainly so I can eliminate a pair of boots from what I have to maintain....

Also, just picked up these, so... lets not do it too soon.

Sage is never going to happen.

Care for a little side bet on that?

From what I understand, it was just asked for and denied, so sure.

Related - I have some very new cadet parents who finally got over to
a local retailer to buy ABUs.

The retailer told them "the sage boots look better, buy those..."

Thankfully they called me before buying them. 

I don't expect some random military surplus guy to know 39-1,
but he >did< know these were for a uniform and you don't buy uniform
parts based on "these look better".

From what I understand, it was just asked for and denied, so sure.

I hadn't heard that...

I suspect that eventually black boots might go away, especially as we approach the loss of BDUs, since the only real reason to keep them at that point is commonality with BBDU.

Remember, white t-shirts with BDUs was the order of the day when we first transitioned, and cooler heads eventually prevailed.

Honestly, I don't get the angst and the beef with black boots. *whaevs*

Back in the day, I was one of the "mirror polish" guys.  But I also had my BDUs starched so heavy they could stand on their own.  With the ABUs, starch is a no-go and that mirror polish just doesn't look right.  Make sure they are clean and that they are black, and you're good to go.  As far as the sage boots, change or don't change.  I like the look of them, but don't mind the black either.

As far as the idea that boot shining is some type of character or team builder, I don't buy it.  Never have, never will.

From what I understand, it was just asked for and denied, so sure.

I hadn't heard that...

I suspect that eventually black boots might go away, especially as we approach the loss of BDUs, since the only real reason to keep them at that point is commonality with BBDU.

Remember, white t-shirts with BDUs was the order of the day when we first transitioned, and cooler heads eventually prevailed.

Honestly, I don't get the angst and the beef with black boots. *whaevs*

Biggest two issues with "not black"...

They can be ruined easily in normal use, especially by cadets.

They will never be available at Walmart.

I could destroy sage boots with a Venti Mocha or a chocolate milk, while the same thing happening on black Walmart boots would be barely visible.

Edit: fixed quotes

As far as the idea that boot shining is some type of character or team builder, I don't buy it.  Never have, never will.

Agreed. I also find it amusing when people that swear up and down that shining footwear is some kind of massive character builder for cadets wears corfams or something non-shined.

Just another thing in CAP that's supposedly great for cadets, but somehow doesn't apply to seniors.

As far as the idea that boot shining is some type of character or team builder, I don't buy it.  Never have, never will.

Agreed. I also find it amusing when people that swear up and down that shining footwear is some kind of massive character builder for cadets wears corfams or something non-shined.

Just another thing in CAP that's supposedly great for cadets, but somehow doesn't apply to seniors.

Have you ever been to an encampment and watched a group of cadets sitting around together shining boots?  That is certainly a team building exercise.

Have you ever been to an encampment and watched a group of cadets sitting around together shining boots?  That is certainly a team building exercise waste of valuable time.

Fixed that for you...

Have you ever been to an encampment and watched a group of cadets sitting around together shining boots?  That is certainly a team building exercise.

I won't say its a waste of time like Eclipse just did.  There are some aspects of "cadet life" that are meant to be experienced in moderation.

That said, sitting around shooting the breeze while polishing your boots is a "dual use exercise."  I'd call it more "personal bonding" than specific "team building."  You need to polish boots anyway, so might as well make it like a "campfire" type exercise.

One year when I was encampment commander, all the senior staff was on the same floor of an entirely separate barracks building from where the cadets were at. We all sat in the hall between our rooms polishing our boots and polishing off some adult soft drinks that one of our guys brought. There was some "bonding time" going on there.  Most of that crew are still my closest friends (not because of the boots, but the experience certainly helped).

From what I understand, it was just asked for and denied, so sure.

I hadn't heard that...

I suspect that eventually black boots might go away, especially as we approach the loss of BDUs, since the only real reason to keep them at that point is commonality with BBDU.

Remember, white t-shirts with BDUs was the order of the day when we first transitioned, and cooler heads eventually prevailed.

Honestly, I don't get the angst and the beef with black boots. *whaevs*

Biggest two issues with "not black"...

They can be ruined easily in normal use, especially by cadets.

They will never be available at Walmart.

I could destroy sage boots with a Venti Mocha or a chocolate milk, while the same thing happening on black Walmart boots would be barely visible.

Edit: fixed quotes

I will just leave this right here... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Interceptor-Men-s-Frontier-Military-Boot/54791683?variantFieldId=actual_color Not to mention free 2 day shipping to your home, or any Walmart store in the county!

From what I understand, it was just asked for and denied, so sure.

I hadn't heard that...

I suspect that eventually black boots might go away, especially as we approach the loss of BDUs, since the only real reason to keep them at that point is commonality with BBDU.

Remember, white t-shirts with BDUs was the order of the day when we first transitioned, and cooler heads eventually prevailed.

Honestly, I don't get the angst and the beef with black boots. *whaevs*

Biggest two issues with "not black"...

They can be ruined easily in normal use, especially by cadets.

They will never be available at Walmart.

I could destroy sage boots with a Venti Mocha or a chocolate milk, while the same thing happening on black Walmart boots would be barely visible.

Edit: fixed quotes

I will just leave this right here... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Interceptor-Men-s-Frontier-Military-Boot/54791683?variantFieldId=actual_color Not to mention free 2 day shipping to your home, or any Walmart store in the county!

Pure garbage.  I'll leave it right there.

I will just leave this right here... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Interceptor-Men-s-Frontier-Military-Boot/54791683?variantFieldId=actual_color Not to mention free 2 day shipping to your home, or any Walmart store in the county!

Well alrighty then, that negates the argument about availability, but I could still wreck them with a mocha.

Pure garbage.  I'll leave it right there.

Not for CAP members.  At the wear rate of 4-8 some hours a month on average, those will last a decade.

On top of that the average cadet will grow out of them before they are broken in.

Anyone spending more then $50 for boots in a CAP context, especially if they don't do something like NESA,
is wasting their money.

From what I understand, it was just asked for and denied, so sure.

I hadn't heard that...

I suspect that eventually black boots might go away, especially as we approach the loss of BDUs, since the only real reason to keep them at that point is commonality with BBDU.

Remember, white t-shirts with BDUs was the order of the day when we first transitioned, and cooler heads eventually prevailed.

Honestly, I don't get the angst and the beef with black boots. *whaevs*

Two reasons we still wear black boots with the ABU.
1. They're widely available for reasonable prices.
2. They make it easier to tell that we're CAP and not the Air Force.

I will just leave this right here... https://www.walmart.com/ip/Interceptor-Men-s-Frontier-Military-Boot/54791683?variantFieldId=actual_color Not to mention free 2 day shipping to your home, or any Walmart store in the county!

Well alrighty then, that negates the argument about availability, but I could still wreck them with a mocha.

Pure garbage.  I'll leave it right there.

Not for CAP members.  At the wear rate of 4-8 some hours a month on average, those will last a decade.

On top of that the average cadet will grow out of them before they are broken in.

Anyone spending more then $50 for boots in a CAP context, especially if they don't do something like NESA,
is wasting their money.

The ONLY reason I started buying more expensive boots is because I started trashing the cheaper pairs I would buy. First pair for CAP as a cadet were Altama, 2nd pair too. Those lasted my whole cadet career, through ES and everything, but when I started really hitting things hard, and doing a lot of flight time, working near daily in them it didn't last. I had some Blackhawk Ops boots that were waterproof. Good for the damp Indiana fields, but in FLWG they just burn me up. I just bought Solomons and love them already.

To each their own. You've got to judge your level and severity of use and weigh that against how much you're spending on boots. Either way on the sage or black I'll be covered. I think we're already distinctive enough that a change in boots won't matter, and sage seem to look better with the ABU, but when you couple all the other uniform types I can see why we stayed.

2. They make it easier to tell that we're CAP and not the Air Force.

I believe anyone from the military who needs to make the distinction between us and our "actual" components would be able to simply from looking at us (hence blue tapes, badges, rank, etc) would be able to without even looking at our boots, but that's just my opinion.

2. They make it easier to tell that we're CAP and not the Air Force.

I believe anyone from the military who needs to make the distinction between us and our "actual" components would be able to simply from looking at us (hence blue tapes, badges, rank, etc) would be able to without even looking at our boots, but that's just my opinion.

The requirement in the reg is to be "distinguishable in low light conditions." The black boots meet that requirement.

Sage is never going to happen.

Care for a little side bet on that?

Yeah, I'm with ya ... the day after the AF finishes rolling out the coyote tan boots with their OCPs, CAP will be authorized the sage green boots.

The Air Force did not require CAP to wear black boots with the ABUs. This was a decision made by the CAP Uniform Board and National leadership based on perceived cost and practicality. This could change in the future, but probably not for a long time, if it does at all.

The Air Force did not require CAP to wear black boots with the ABUs. This was a decision made by the CAP Uniform Board and National leadership based on perceived cost and practicality. This could change in the future, but probably not for a long time, if it does at all.

This.

It was even published by NHQ that the reason for the black boots being kept on with the BDU-to-ABU transition was because of the practicality for members to be able to decrease their equipment costs in not having to purchase a new pair of boots. It also prevented a mismatch of sage/black leather boots worn with the ABU if it was to be an optional choice.

Personally, I would have preferred the suedes. I never had any issues cleaning them off after being in the field, and they worked just fine.

Have you ever been to an encampment and watched a group of cadets sitting around together shining boots?  That is certainly a team building exercise waste of valuable time.

Fixed that for you...

I agree entirely with this "correction." Call it a discipline factor or whatever you want. It's a colossal waste of time from a training standpoint. Sure, if you have endless hours where you can afford to tell everyone to either study on their "down time" or shine their boots, I can get that. But when you have very limited time, such as during a unit meeting (and I've seen units spend an hour on boot polishing), that is indeed a waste of time. You can try and argue all you want that it teaches them respect for their equipment and their uniform. It doesn't, and with all of the other uniform violations that exist, shiny boots isn't going to fix that in CAP. If the black boots went away tomorrow and everyone magically wore the suedes, you aren't going to see any loss in team-building, respect for the uniform, or discipline. 


On the argument of the uniform being "distinguishable," I call phooey on it. It is a distinguishable uniform. The tapes say "Civil Air Patrol" as opposed to "U.S. Air Force." There you go. I don't see this big deal about making it stand out so much that nobody in the Air Force could possibly mistake the CAP uniform from the Air Force uniform.

I fully understand that this is the proposal CAP gave to the Air Force in the transition (and from what I understand, and I could be mistaken, CAP presented the uniform to the Air Force to approve, not the Air Force mandating CAP to use the color combination we ended up with). But I don't see why it's such a big issue to wear camouflage matching nametapes with different lettering.

Look at the Sea Cadets---yes, I'm going to point a finger and say "Another group that isn't us does this" (the we're not the Sea Cadets can get over it). They wear the Navy Working Uniform (NWU). It's the exact same uniform with the exception of some changes to the patches. The Navy's NWU has a tape that says "U.S. Navy" in NWU pattern with silver lettering. The Sea Cadets' NWU has a tape that says "USNSCC" in NWU pattern with silver lettering. The Navy wears the ship/eagle on the left breast pocket. The Sea Cadets wear a distinctive patch on their right break pocket and cover.

The Air Force can do whatever it wants separate from the Navy. But I don't buy the "people will confuse us!" The general public, most of them at least, doesn't know the difference anyway. Air Force personnel can't be that stupid to confuse it, except for maybe a few newer Airmen who might not be aware of CAP's existence.

That's my rant for the moment.

The Air Force did not require CAP to wear black boots with the ABUs. This was a decision made by the CAP Uniform Board and National leadership based on perceived cost and practicality. This could change in the future, but probably not for a long time, if it does at all.

This.

It was even published by NHQ that the reason for the black boots being kept on with the BDU-to-ABU transition was because of the practicality for members to be able to decrease their equipment costs in not having to purchase a new pair of boots. It also prevented a mismatch of sage/black leather boots worn with the ABU if it was to be an optional choice.

If sage is ever authorized for our ABUs, they need to be for the sage flight suit as well - otherwise, members wearing Air Force-style field and flight uniforms would need two sets of boots.

If sage is ever authorized for our ABUs, they need to be for the sage flight suit as well - otherwise, members wearing Air Force-style field and flight uniforms would need two sets of boots.

Actually the sage green flight suit is not authorized for CAP.  However the Olive Drab flight suit is.

If sage is ever authorized for our ABUs, they need to be for the sage flight suit as well - otherwise, members wearing Air Force-style field and flight uniforms would need two sets of boots.

Actually the sage green flight suit is not authorized for CAP.  However the Olive Drab flight suit is.

While 39-1 most certainly calls the USAF FDU "olive drab" (many times over), the "official" FDU and flight jacket on Vanguard is "sage green" and finding a Nomex "olive drab" FDU via a quick Google yielded no results.

If sage is ever authorized for our ABUs, they need to be for the sage flight suit as well - otherwise, members wearing Air Force-style field and flight uniforms would need two sets of boots.

Actually the sage green flight suit is not authorized for CAP.  However the Olive Drab flight suit is.

While 39-1 most certainly calls the USAF FDU "olive drab" (many times over), the "official" FDU and flight jacket on Vanguard is "sage green" and finding a Nomex "olive drab" FDU via a quick Google yielded no results.

Functionally they are identical. If I take 10 FDU's in various stages of use, wear, and fading, and ask you to tell me which ones are sage and which are OD, you probably won't get them all right. But back to the boots... lol

If sage is ever authorized for our ABUs, they need to be for the sage flight suit as well - otherwise, members wearing Air Force-style field and flight uniforms would need two sets of boots.

Actually the sage green flight suit is not authorized for CAP.  However the Olive Drab flight suit is.

While 39-1 most certainly calls the USAF FDU "olive drab" (many times over), the "official" FDU and flight jacket on Vanguard is "sage green" and finding a Nomex "olive drab" FDU via a quick Google yielded no results.

Less than 5 seconds to click to using yahoo search.    http://www.mcguirearmynavy.com/Flyers-CWU-64P-Coveralls-Fire-Retardant-Nomex-Flightsuit-OD-Green-Sizes.html

If sage is ever authorized for our ABUs, they need to be for the sage flight suit as well - otherwise, members wearing Air Force-style field and flight uniforms would need two sets of boots.

Actually the sage green flight suit is not authorized for CAP.  However the Olive Drab flight suit is.

While 39-1 most certainly calls the USAF FDU "olive drab" (many times over), the "official" FDU and flight jacket on Vanguard is "sage green" and finding a Nomex "olive drab" FDU via a quick Google yielded no results.

Less than 5 seconds to click to using yahoo search.    http://www.mcguirearmynavy.com/Flyers-CWU-64P-Coveralls-Fire-Retardant-Nomex-Flightsuit-OD-Green-Sizes.html

Funny, the labels in all of my flight suits, CAP and Air Force all say the same thing.
"COVERALLS, FLYERS, CWU-27/P"     No color is given. 

Does anyone really have actual "sage green" flight suits anymore? I thought that color went away in the 70's or 80's. It was distinctly different from OD. More like a grey/green.

Does anyone really have actual "sage green" flight suits anymore? I thought that color went away in the 70's or 80's. It was distinctly different from OD. More like a grey/green.

The CWU-73/P like Phil mentioned is "Sage"

The AF still wears them. Today. All the time.  CAP too. The *correct* flightsuit color is sage green. Even though 39-1 may say "OD," the flightsuits we've been wearing for 40+ years are technically "sage"

The Air Force did not require CAP to wear black boots with the ABUs. This was a decision made by the CAP Uniform Board and National leadership based on perceived cost and practicality. This could change in the future, but probably not for a long time, if it does at all.

Two reasons we still wear black boots with the ABU.
1. They're widely available for reasonable prices.
2. They make it easier to tell that we're CAP and not the Air Force.

When I first read through this thread, I didn't expect to have a strong opinion on the "black vs sage" part.  I assumed black combat boots were standard with the services and readily available at MCSS/Exchange.  Also, I'm not a quick supporter of uniform "options", as the options make a uniform less... uniform.

After a visit to the local Army/Air Force base, I changed my mind.  I didn't realize that black boots are essentially phased out of active service to the point where MCSS/Exchange doesn't carry them.  If this link displays correctly, this is there entire selection of "military approved boots" filtered on black.

https://www.shopmyexchange.com/browse/military/military-approved-boots/_/N-118277+4294820289

I can understand an intent in the short term to not burden members with additional costs for boots, but I hope NHQ is considering medium and long term options.  My default source for uniforms is the same source as active service members.  My wants were simple: an extra set of issue boots for when my last issued jungle boots wear out.  I realize most squadrons do not have an AFB nearby, but with online exchange access available to all* veterans in November, that should make uniform components available to nearly all squadrons.

I prefer a uniform standard over my own personal convenience, but whatever that standard is: I hope and expect the standard to be based on a readily available issue item. 

Commo

I realize most squadrons do not have an AFB nearby, but with online exchange access available to all* veterans in November, that should make uniform components available to nearly all squadrons.

Unfortunately veterans are not allowed to buy uniforms under the new Exchange program.

I realize most squadrons do not have an AFB nearby, but with online exchange access available to all* veterans in November, that should make uniform components available to nearly all squadrons.

Unfortunately veterans are not allowed to buy uniforms under the new Exchange program.

I'll be darned.  You are correct.  I didn't realize this was excluded.

Commo

I realize most squadrons do not have an AFB nearby, but with online exchange access available to all* veterans in November, that should make uniform components available to nearly all squadrons.

Unfortunately veterans are not allowed to buy uniforms under the new Exchange program.

I'll be darned.  You are correct.  I didn't realize this was excluded.

Commo

Lol, I got in on the beta and that was one of the first things I checked.   I was bummed. 

I will repeat myself. If any CAP members live in or are visiting Las Vegas (and don't already have base access) I can get you on the base so you can buy uniform items.

What Walmart and Amazon stocks in regards to footwear is far more relevent to the
majority of CAP members then what MCSS, NAVEX, or Base Exchanges stock.