Weight Standard ABU/BDU

[stillamarine]

I don't think I had ever seen the corporate uniform until recently when there were a bunch of people who were attending RSC eating lunch at our local BX food court. I have to honestly say that I was upset seeing the facial hair and the several grossly overweight people wearing it.

You were upset these people were dressed properly?

Or upset these volunteers who were taking a week off their normal lives, on their own nickel and time, didn't fit your model?

Why was I upset? Because frankly I thought that with their rank insignia they looked too much like active military. There were military members from all branches of the service present as well as foreign military.

Sooooo now we can't have rank insignia on the corporate uniform?

[etodd]

I was finishing high school as Viet Nam was ending. I went on to college, never joined the military, then got married, kids.

My father got a purple heart being wounded in Korea and was on disability for the rest of his life. Both my grandfathers served in WWII. Many others in my family have served. It just didn't work out for me.

With that kind of heritage .... I just cannot bring myself to wear a uniform I don't deserve to wear. No matter how much work I put into CAP, I'll always think of myself as a civilian volunteer and unworthy to wear a uniform. I feel it would dishonor my father's sacrifice.

JMHO, and only applies to me and no one else. I stand in awe of those who have served and have earned respect and more.

.

[sardak]

^^I understand where you're coming from. I had a draft card at the end of Vietnam and high school. My dad had been a Naval Aviation Cadet learning to fly F6F Hellcats at NAS Glenview when WW II ended. An uncle was a Marine aviator flying dive bombers in the Pacific Theater; another was a tank driver, fought in the Battle of the Bulge, became the National Commander of the American Legion during the Vietnam War; one was an ambulance driver who spent the last 18 months of the war in a German POW camp. My mom put pictures of me in my CAP blues in the photo album with their pictures. We know moms, but that's too much. I took the pictures out and gave her "the look".

However, I don't share your view on the CAP uniform. We wear our uniform with the understanding that it represents a different service to the country than that of our family members who came before us.

Mike

[Brit_in_CAP]

Do you have any proof of anyone "shaming" someone in corporates?

Public shaming like Nelson from The Simpsons? Not really. But as a (relatively) thin guy, I have gotten numerous comments over the years about being in the aviator shirt instead of blues. I use it as a teachable moment, that corporates are for all seniors, and to try to put the kibosh on the "us vs. them" attitudes.

+1.  I've fought for years the "fat and fuzzy" terminology.  There is no us v them - or shouldn't be - and the G&W is often the affordable solution for many Senior Members.  dwb and I exchanged emails on this recently, reflecting on the joys of "single money" when it came to being able to purchase A/F uniforms!  As the CDC and now CDS I've encouraged my "financially challenged" Seniors to obtain the G&W rather than strain the available funds towards an A/F uniform.  All things come in their good time.

I wore my G&W to the MER Conference this year and I did get a few comments but nothing close to shaming.  Sadly, I also saw some far from regulation G&W and Blues, worn by people who know better.

[JeffDG]

I don't think I had ever seen the corporate uniform until recently when there were a bunch of people who were attending RSC eating lunch at our local BX food court. I have to honestly say that I was upset seeing the facial hair and the several grossly overweight people wearing it.

You were upset these people were dressed properly?

Or upset these volunteers who were taking a week off their normal lives, on their own nickel and time, didn't fit your model?

Why was I upset? Because frankly I thought that with their rank insignia they looked too much like active military. There were military members from all branches of the service present as well as foreign military.

In no way, shape, or form are you going to present a satisfactory argument. Better to just cut your lose and not post to this thread.

Before someone at the conference asks the wing commander if this member represents the culture of NVWG.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I don't think I had ever seen the corporate uniform until recently when there were a bunch of people who were attending RSC eating lunch at our local BX food court. I have to honestly say that I was upset seeing the facial hair and the several grossly overweight people wearing it.

You were upset these people were dressed properly?

Or upset these volunteers who were taking a week off their normal lives, on their own nickel and time, didn't fit your model?

Why was I upset? Because frankly I thought that with their rank insignia they looked too much like active military. There were military members from all branches of the service present as well as foreign military.

In no way, shape, or form are you going to present a satisfactory argument. Better to just cut your lose and not post to this thread.

Before someone at the conference asks the wing commander if this member represents the culture of NVWG.

Sherley, no one would do that.

[Okayish Aviator]

I don't think I had ever seen the corporate uniform until recently when there were a bunch of people who were attending RSC eating lunch at our local BX food court. I have to honestly say that I was upset seeing the facial hair and the several grossly overweight people wearing it.

You were upset these people were dressed properly?

Or upset these volunteers who were taking a week off their normal lives, on their own nickel and time, didn't fit your model?

Why was I upset? Because frankly I thought that with their rank insignia they looked too much like active military. There were military members from all branches of the service present as well as foreign military.

In no way, shape, or form are you going to present a satisfactory argument. Better to just cut your lose and not post to this thread.

Before someone at the conference asks the wing commander if this member represents the culture of NVWG.

Sherley, no one would do that.

Don't call him Sherley. 

[USACAP]

I do not see a mechanism for a commander to force this issue.
We do not have a mandatory physical program with mandatory tests.
The PRT is how armed services conduct height/weight.
Point me to a reg (beyond the table in 39-1) where weigh-ins and height weight measurements are described.
If a commander told me to step on a scale I'd tell him where to go.

[Майор Хаткевич]

I do not see a mechanism for a commander to force this issue.
We do not have a mandatory physical program with mandatory tests.
The PRT is how armed services conduct height/weight.
Point me to a reg (beyond the table in 39-1) where weigh-ins and height weight measurements are described.
If a commander told me to step on a scale I'd tell him where to go.

That's absolutely your choice.


As is the commanders ability to question your eligibility to wear AF-style uniforms, and asking for proof of eligibility.

[Eclipse]

I do not see a mechanism for a commander to force this issue.
We do not have a mandatory physical program with mandatory tests.

Correct, however CAP has a non-optional standard.

Point me to a reg (beyond the table in 39-1) where weigh-ins and height weight measurements are described.
If a commander told me to step on a scale I'd tell him where to go.

That's like saying "point me to a reg besides 60-3 that prescribes rules for ES, or 52-16 for CP.
39-1 is the bible, non-optional, like it or not.

You seriously don't think CCs have the authority to force you to comply with clear regulations?

Your choice is comply or find other things to do with your evenings or weekends.

[USACAP]

My point is that CAP has done a TERRIBLE job of writing these standards.
Gotta' be specific brother.

[THRAWN]

My point is that CAP has done a TERRIBLE job of writing these standards.
Gotta' be specific brother.

Hardly. They've done a lousy job of enforcing the written standard. It's simple, you must meet the weight/height requirements in 39-1 to wear the USAF style. Don't meet that standard? You wear the corporates.

[Eclipse]

My point is that CAP has done a TERRIBLE job of writing these standards.
Gotta' be specific brother.

How much more specific do you want then "this height = this weight?"
As Thrawn says, it's the enforcement that's lacked not the standard.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Some people want to force their point of view on something that is crystal clear. And when it does not fit, they say "it's lousily written!"

[Nick]

This tells me you guys really don't read the regs...

CAPM 39-1:

2.10. Commanders below Wing. In this context, region, wing, and group commanders act in this role for members of their headquarters units. Commanders may delegate these responsibilities to local activity directors for the duration of a particular activity.

2.10.1. Ensure that all members, individually and collectively, present a professional, well-groomed appearance, which will reflect credit upon CAP as the auxiliary of the United States Air Force. They will ensure all members are uniformed in accordance with the provisions of this manual, uniform violations are promptly corrected, and that members are regularly educated as to the proper wear of the uniform.

Edit: This is even more specific...

1.2.2. Wearing the USAF-style uniform is a privilege extended to CAP members who meet weight (see Attachment 2) and grooming standards (see paragraph 3.2). Commanders and activity directors are expected to enforce these standards and ensure that members wearing USAF-style uniforms understand these requirements, that members wearing USAF-style uniforms accept personal responsibility for meeting these requirements, and are expected to provide remedial education and counseling if required.

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[AlphaSigOU]

And the urinary competition continues...

[Ned]

Just a reminder - commanders have the responsibility to enforce the rule, and all the necessary authority. 

For example, commanders may absolutely use a scale to help determine eligibility for USAF-style uniforms.  I've conducted mandatory weigh-ins.  It's no big deal if the members are informed ahead of time, and the weigh-in itself is conducted with dignity and privacy.

Human nature being what it is, even just the knowledge that a weigh-in is coming is normally sufficient "motivation" for members to make the right call on their uniform choices.

But NHQ wisely does not micro-manage how commanders enforce the existing rules.  Just like NHQ does not mandate in-ranks uniform inspections for seniors.  Commanders are free to do them, of course, but most use other methods to achieve compliance.

98% of the commanders in CAP are at the Squadron and Flight level.  They already do a pretty good job at keeping the membership in line.  Like anything in CAP, compliance could be better, however.  We all need to support the unit commanders in uniform matters.

[ZigZag911]

Has anyone considered that probably the quickest way to improve our relationship with the Air Force would be to get all senior members out of USAF-style uniforms?

It would also bring these interminable debates to an end!

[Nick]

I really don't get what the interminable debate is. There's a published uniform standard for all to see. Commanders have responsibility and authority to enforce it. Members have responsibility to comply with it. End of debate.


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[RiverAux]

Has anyone considered that probably the quickest way to improve our relationship with the Air Force would be to get all senior members out of USAF-style uniforms?

You're assuming that this is an actual problem that significantly hampers our relationship with the AF.