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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2016, 12:00:59 AM »

Quote
Can chaplains be on Review/Promotion/Membership boards?

Why not? There's no regulation prohibiting chaplains from participating in these boards or committees. The simple answer is it depends on the particular chaplain and commander making the appointment. I've had a chaplain in Cadet Promotion Boards. The chaplain worked directly with the cadets and was able to provide valuable feedback on the cadets' performance.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2016, 02:46:46 PM »

Quote
Can chaplains be on Review/Promotion/Membership boards?

Why not? There's no regulation prohibiting chaplains from participating in these boards or committees. The simple answer is it depends on the particular chaplain and commander making the appointment. I've had a chaplain in Cadet Promotion Boards. The chaplain worked directly with the cadets and was able to provide valuable feedback on the cadets' performance.




Our chaplain recently went to a CAP Chaplain course, where they said that chaplains cannot serve on these for the reasons given by many above. I agree in concept, but couldn't find a reg cite. Just another Chaplain corps unwritten policy I suppose.
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Chappie
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2016, 04:26:01 PM »

Quote
Can chaplains be on Review/Promotion/Membership boards?

Why not? There's no regulation prohibiting chaplains from participating in these boards or committees. The simple answer is it depends on the particular chaplain and commander making the appointment. I've had a chaplain in Cadet Promotion Boards. The chaplain worked directly with the cadets and was able to provide valuable feedback on the cadets' performance.




Our chaplain recently went to a CAP Chaplain course, where they said that chaplains cannot serve on these for the reasons given by many above. I agree in concept, but couldn't find a reg cite. Just another Chaplain corps unwritten policy I suppose.

The reg (CAPR 265-1 5, b.) prohibits chaplains from serving as a Commander, Deputy Commander, Testing Officer or Investigating Officer. 

The CAPP 221A provides this insight under the section "Advising Leadership" (Chapter 3 - The CAP Chaplain Core Five Processes)  - The Five processes are to be implemented by the Chaplain.  There is a statement in the introductory section of the "Five Core Processes" that reads: "Precisely how the chaplain does that is determined in consultation with the commander": 

The focus of the chaplain's job is provide advice on religious, ethical and quality of life concerns.  Because of the chaplain's complex network of relationships with all members of the unit, the chaplain is uniquely qualified to assess concerns within the unit.  The chaplain's job is provide the commander this information as accurately as possible as often as necessary while the commander's job is to do something about these concerns.

Of course, the chaplain owes the same loyalty to other members of the commander's staff.  To the extent another staff member has the power to fix a problem, the chaplain owes the staff member the opportunity to do so before the chaplain elevates the concern to the commander.


So whether or not to serve on a Review/Promotion/Membership is really up to commander and the chaplain.   While there is no reg prohibiting it, most chaplains find it ill advisable to function in that role -- not a "best practice".   Chaplains should be focusing on the "big picture" to assist the commander, rather than putting pieces of the puzzle together. 

It is not an unwritten "policy" rather it is more personal preference in how to best assist the squadron members and the unit commander.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 06:46:47 PM by Chappie » Logged
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2016, 08:44:24 PM »

Our Chaplain is also our Safety Officer, which is his role before anything else. He's there as a Chaplain if needed, but aside from teaching Character Development, he has not had a major theological role in unit affairs. The one thing I will definitely say about our Chaplain is that he's always one of those guys that can sit in on a conversation and listen to anyone's opinion without putting much response out, but his body language says everything you need to know about where he stands. He tries to really stay out of most major decisions, although I personally feel he wishes he was a little closer to what is going on. The puts him in a predicament though, say, during cadet training, he's not someone that I would have correct a cadet for failing to salute, but as Safety Officer, he may step in and address certain protocols for field operations. But he balances it very well. And that's why I prefer he not be on a review board. Not only do I not want cadets to feel like they have nobody to go to for personal matters, but I also don't want him to feel like he may lose that privilege should he have to up the tone a bit.

Not every unit does a mass recitation of the Cadet Oath at the opening of every meeting. We certainly don't.

You do whatever works for your unit. It's just been a tradition in our unit and our neighboring units to recite the Cadet Oath at the start of the meeting. It's entirely SOP in honor of tradition, and providing repetition for memory. I don't like using the word, but let's face it, we indoctrinate---that's what we do.





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Eclipse
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« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2016, 09:21:52 PM »

I see this as potentialy problematic, however personalities and temperaments may remediate issues.

I am, frankly, a little surprised that such a major role (in NHQ's eyes #2 only to the CC and CDs) is allowed to be
the Chaplain.  I'd be curious to know if Wing is actually cognizant of the situation.

He tries to really stay out of most major decisions, although I personally feel he wishes he was a little closer to what is going on. The puts him in a predicament though, say, during cadet training, he's not someone that I would have correct a cadet for failing to salute, but as Safety Officer, he may step in and address certain protocols for field operations.

As SE, he needs to be a strong voice in activity planning, and not in a situation where he is ever reluctant to call a "knock it off", even if it has to be a daddy voice
and might make people sad, thus my comments above.  He is also the primary in regards to investigations regarding safety issues and mishaps at the unit,
which could put him in direct conflict regarding his Chaplaincy.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2016, 02:02:47 PM »

I see this as potentialy problematic, however personalities and temperaments may remediate issues.

I am, frankly, a little surprised that such a major role (in NHQ's eyes #2 only to the CC and CDs) is allowed to be
the Chaplain.  I'd be curious to know if Wing is actually cognizant of the situation.

He tries to really stay out of most major decisions, although I personally feel he wishes he was a little closer to what is going on. The puts him in a predicament though, say, during cadet training, he's not someone that I would have correct a cadet for failing to salute, but as Safety Officer, he may step in and address certain protocols for field operations.

As SE, he needs to be a strong voice in activity planning, and not in a situation where he is ever reluctant to call a "knock it off", even if it has to be a daddy voice
and might make people sad, thus my comments above.  He is also the primary in regards to investigations regarding safety issues and mishaps at the unit,
which could put him in direct conflict regarding his Chaplaincy.

I've actually voiced that, myself. I often ask, "How did this person get that job," not meant as a remark to say they shouldn't be in that role, but to figure out the logic behind it. Usually, people stand there staring at each other. So I'll ask, "I mean, what was the reason that this person either accepted this role or was appointed?" More often than not I hear, "Nobody else would do it."

I think this goes to the issue of wearing so many hats that maybe it starts to not only conflict with someone's responsibilities but also conflicts with how others perceive this person.

To side track this, and not to overthrow the OP, but does anyone else see a lot of people a bit complacent about using a Chaplain as a Chaplain in their unit? The only thing our Chaplain really does in a Chaplain role is teach Character Development, completely non-theological of course. But the seniors have talked about making the Chaplain more approachable by some when they do have personal issues they want to discuss. I proposed having a slot perhaps every other week where anyone, cadet or senior, can request some time with the Chaplain to just talk and let off some steam. Some were very hesitant with this due to not wanting to push religion. Our unit is predominately semi-rural/rural, in a fairly conservative area. Most members are some denomination of Christian with a few atheists and agnostics. But there is a lot of behind-the-scenes remarking about why we even need a unit Chaplain. Some feel very lucky that we do have one. Any insight?
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Chappie
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« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2016, 03:41:02 PM »

Give me some time to form my response to the inquiry by TheSkyHornet...having been a CAP Chaplain for 20 years, I think I can provide some insight ;)
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Brit_in_CAP
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« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2016, 05:32:28 PM »

Give me some time to form my response to the inquiry by TheSkyHornet...having been a CAP Chaplain for 20 years, I think I can provide some insight ;)
Worth waiting for!

In the interim....our Chaplain was also our Safety officer when I first joined CAP.  Bad fit.  Neither role was performed satisfactorily.  He also joined the Promotion Boards, mainly due to precedent.

I was part of stopping all of that - the SE role needed someone able to properly fulfill the functions and the PB were run in a manner that was best described as inappropriate - another story for another day, and not the Chaplain's doing.  Being the person who most closely with him (I'm the CDI), I persuaded him we should be allowing one of the underutilized Seniors to grow in their role.  Got a good SE officer from that.  Got a good Chaplain back from that.  Good result all round.
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Chappie
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« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2016, 02:20:08 AM »

Finally had some time to sit down and compose a few thoughts (dealing with work issues and a matter in CAP)...so here's some insight:

The discussion that "TheSkyHornet" alluded was the "behind the scenes" remarks regarding the need  of a unit chaplain... 

I would like to highlight the CAPP 221A - The Basic Chaplain Course, The Squadron Chaplain (Chapter 3 - The CAP Chaplain Corps Five Core Processes) which outlines the 5 basic areas that chaplains are expected to implement (in consultation with the commander).  The comments about each process are my observations and not the narrative in the pamphlet (which would be something to read for informational purposes):

1. Conducting Religious Observances - CAP Chaplains are responsible for providing opportunities for religion and interfaith worship to CAP members.

Unit chaplains often conduct religious services for CAP member when events take place over a week-end.  This is especially true - from my experience - with Cadets attending encampments, cadet conferences, training events, etc.  Parents request that their children attend a service, so we facilitate by arranging services or transportation to services.  Living in a local community has its advantages since chaplains have knowledge of locations, etc.   For example, at CAWG encampments and Cadet Programs Conferences held at Camp San Luis Obispo -- a non-denominational service is conducted on site and Catholic cadets/seniors are transported to the Old Mission in downtown SLO; Muslim cadets/seniors are transported to the local Mosque; the Jewish cadets/seniors are transported to one of two synagogues.   The local CAP chaplain has knowledge of the location, service times, made contact with the place of worship, etc.  Should an event not have those options...conducting an inter-faith service is certainly an alternative.   I have conducted such a service at national, region and wing events based on the story of "The Four Chaplains".   It certainly draws from our common belief (and Core Value) of serving others.


2. Provides Compassionate Care - CAP chaplains may express compassion through counseling and care, which responds to the needs of Civil Air Patrol members and those that CAP serves.

Many of our members do not have friends in the clergy or attend a church/synagogue/mosque/temple and CAP chaplains often conduct funerals or weddings for CAP members and their families.  I have performed many during my years as a CAP chaplain.  In addition when a member (and family) of the local squadron goes through a difficult time, they are there to bring comfort.  They have been at the hospital with squadron members when medical emergencies or procedures occurred -- visiting during the hospitalization; counseling (non-religious) regarding family issues, job changes, personal matters -- yes, someone to talk with about what they are being confronted with.


3. Modeling Ethical Leadership - CAP Chaplains can provide a positive influence in the Civil Air Patrol environment by modeling and facilitating ethical leadership that promotes moral decision making.

Pretty much covers the Character Development area.

4. Advising Leadership - CAP Chaplains are expected to advise commanders and other members concerning the spiritual needs, religious requirement and ethical issues that impact the mission, the quality of life and the religious freedoms of Civil Air Patrol members. 

I have assisted in planning events by consulting with commanders/activity directors/banquet planners, etc. on dietary restrictions or religious practices/observances that might impact an event.  Actually was at a CAP event, where the only meat offered was bar-b-q pork...anyone see a problem with that???   Or a week-end activity schedule on a major religious observance???   Or when a parent will not allow a cadet to attend a week-day event because of a religious observance???  Or when an activity director adamantly opposes a parent's specific request for a cadet to attend a religious service during the week-end or week-long event???

In an article published in 2002 (before he became Chief in 2014), Ch, Col James Hughes published an article entitled "Commanders Carry Burden, but Chaplains Can Help".  He highlighted some ways the chaplain be direct benefit to the commander (http://www.caphclib.org/tempfiles/ChaplainAndCommanders.pdf):


1.  The chaplain brings an understanding of the dynamics of a volunteer organization.

2.  The chaplain brings skills in communication


5. Provides Training, Involvement and Recognition - The need to supply training and recognition for people who voluntarily support the chaplain program is a pressing matter for CAP chaplains.

Since the area of expertise of the chaplain is dealing with people, chaplains can present all sorts of interesting presentations on leadership, inter-personal relationships, etc.  And having a great deal of experience in a largely volunteer structure within religious organization, they certainly know what it takes to help motivate and retain volunteer staffs (and providing resources/recognition/etc.)


Many chaplains have ratings in other specialty tracks - I can think of a few of my colleagues that have specialty track ratings in cadet programs, historian, professional development, safety, AE, communication, public affairs.  There are also a few who are pilots that provide O-Rides...I can think of 4 off-hand.   I have served as a Professional Development Officer -- providing training.   Newsletters for squadrons can have the chaplain contribute an article (or even edited by the chaplain -- years of church bulletins/newsletter were helpful with three Chaplain Corps newsletters that I was the editor for).   Powerpoint presentations can be created...and the list goes on what knowledge or experience that a chaplain can bring to the table.

There is that perception that exists that CAP Chaplains are there to "push religion"...sadly, there are those chaplains that don't see the big picture and have engaged in that type of behavior -- however, I have found in my 20 year experience that the vast majority of chaplains in CAP are not there to "push religion"...rather they are in the organization to serve its members and their families.


To borrow a phrase from a local bail bonds company in our community -- and apply it to the Chaplain Corps: "It's better to know us and not need us...than it is to need us and not know us!!!" :)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2016, 02:29:23 AM by Chappie » Logged
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Brit_in_CAP
Seasoned Member

Posts: 399
Unit: MER-VA-002

« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2016, 12:34:46 PM »

I said it would be worth waiting for..!   :clap:
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TheSkyHornet
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Posts: 1,667

« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2016, 06:04:12 PM »

Give me some time to form my response to the inquiry by TheSkyHornet...having been a CAP Chaplain for 20 years, I think I can provide some insight ;)
Worth waiting for!

In the interim....our Chaplain was also our Safety officer when I first joined CAP.  Bad fit.  Neither role was performed satisfactorily.  He also joined the Promotion Boards, mainly due to precedent.

I was part of stopping all of that - the SE role needed someone able to properly fulfill the functions and the PB were run in a manner that was best described as inappropriate - another story for another day, and not the Chaplain's doing.  Being the person who most closely with him (I'm the CDI), I persuaded him we should be allowing one of the underutilized Seniors to grow in their role.  Got a good SE officer from that.  Got a good Chaplain back from that.  Good result all round.

I think we're on the exact same page here.

Finally had some time to sit down and compose a few thoughts (dealing with work issues and a matter in CAP)...so here's some insight:

The discussion that "TheSkyHornet" alluded was the "behind the scenes" remarks regarding the need  of a unit chaplain... 

I would like to highlight the CAPP 221A - The Basic Chaplain Course, The Squadron Chaplain (Chapter 3 - The CAP Chaplain Corps Five Core Processes) which outlines the 5 basic areas that chaplains are expected to implement (in consultation with the commander).  The comments about each process are my observations and not the narrative in the pamphlet (which would be something to read for informational purposes):

1. Conducting Religious Observances - CAP Chaplains are responsible for providing opportunities for religion and interfaith worship to CAP members.

Unit chaplains often conduct religious services for CAP member when events take place over a week-end.  This is especially true - from my experience - with Cadets attending encampments, cadet conferences, training events, etc.  Parents request that their children attend a service, so we facilitate by arranging services or transportation to services.  Living in a local community has its advantages since chaplains have knowledge of locations, etc.   For example, at CAWG encampments and Cadet Programs Conferences held at Camp San Luis Obispo -- a non-denominational service is conducted on site and Catholic cadets/seniors are transported to the Old Mission in downtown SLO; Muslim cadets/seniors are transported to the local Mosque; the Jewish cadets/seniors are transported to one of two synagogues.   The local CAP chaplain has knowledge of the location, service times, made contact with the place of worship, etc.  Should an event not have those options...conducting an inter-faith service is certainly an alternative.   I have conducted such a service at national, region and wing events based on the story of "The Four Chaplains".   It certainly draws from our common belief (and Core Value) of serving others.


2. Provides Compassionate Care - CAP chaplains may express compassion through counseling and care, which responds to the needs of Civil Air Patrol members and those that CAP serves.

Many of our members do not have friends in the clergy or attend a church/synagogue/mosque/temple and CAP chaplains often conduct funerals or weddings for CAP members and their families.  I have performed many during my years as a CAP chaplain.  In addition when a member (and family) of the local squadron goes through a difficult time, they are there to bring comfort.  They have been at the hospital with squadron members when medical emergencies or procedures occurred -- visiting during the hospitalization; counseling (non-religious) regarding family issues, job changes, personal matters -- yes, someone to talk with about what they are being confronted with.


3. Modeling Ethical Leadership - CAP Chaplains can provide a positive influence in the Civil Air Patrol environment by modeling and facilitating ethical leadership that promotes moral decision making.

Pretty much covers the Character Development area.

4. Advising Leadership - CAP Chaplains are expected to advise commanders and other members concerning the spiritual needs, religious requirement and ethical issues that impact the mission, the quality of life and the religious freedoms of Civil Air Patrol members. 

I have assisted in planning events by consulting with commanders/activity directors/banquet planners, etc. on dietary restrictions or religious practices/observances that might impact an event.  Actually was at a CAP event, where the only meat offered was bar-b-q pork...anyone see a problem with that???   Or a week-end activity schedule on a major religious observance???   Or when a parent will not allow a cadet to attend a week-day event because of a religious observance???  Or when an activity director adamantly opposes a parent's specific request for a cadet to attend a religious service during the week-end or week-long event???

In an article published in 2002 (before he became Chief in 2014), Ch, Col James Hughes published an article entitled "Commanders Carry Burden, but Chaplains Can Help".  He highlighted some ways the chaplain be direct benefit to the commander (http://www.caphclib.org/tempfiles/ChaplainAndCommanders.pdf):


1.  The chaplain brings an understanding of the dynamics of a volunteer organization.

2.  The chaplain brings skills in communication


5. Provides Training, Involvement and Recognition - The need to supply training and recognition for people who voluntarily support the chaplain program is a pressing matter for CAP chaplains.

Since the area of expertise of the chaplain is dealing with people, chaplains can present all sorts of interesting presentations on leadership, inter-personal relationships, etc.  And having a great deal of experience in a largely volunteer structure within religious organization, they certainly know what it takes to help motivate and retain volunteer staffs (and providing resources/recognition/etc.)


Many chaplains have ratings in other specialty tracks - I can think of a few of my colleagues that have specialty track ratings in cadet programs, historian, professional development, safety, AE, communication, public affairs.  There are also a few who are pilots that provide O-Rides...I can think of 4 off-hand.   I have served as a Professional Development Officer -- providing training.   Newsletters for squadrons can have the chaplain contribute an article (or even edited by the chaplain -- years of church bulletins/newsletter were helpful with three Chaplain Corps newsletters that I was the editor for).   Powerpoint presentations can be created...and the list goes on what knowledge or experience that a chaplain can bring to the table.

There is that perception that exists that CAP Chaplains are there to "push religion"...sadly, there are those chaplains that don't see the big picture and have engaged in that type of behavior -- however, I have found in my 20 year experience that the vast majority of chaplains in CAP are not there to "push religion"...rather they are in the organization to serve its members and their families.


To borrow a phrase from a local bail bonds company in our community -- and apply it to the Chaplain Corps: "It's better to know us and not need us...than it is to need us and not know us!!!" :)

1. I couldn't agree more. From my experience, a base/unit Chaplain is a person of consult for religious needs and someone to help organize the possibility of you receiving worship needs of your own faith if so offered the opportunity. That opportunity should be provided to all, even to those of no or little faith. 

2. Again, I couldn't agree more. The ability to have someone present for counseling who is completely excluded from all training functions and the chain of command is a great privilege and opportunity. This individual needs to be an unbiased figure in someone's personal seek for guidance. This is not to make a Chaplain into a therapist, mental health expert, or substitute for legal authority in the event of certain troubles brought to light. But Chaplains are a key tool in offering support in the stresses of CAP, especially the Cadet Program, and providing additional consult in personal affairs outside of CAP that many people might not want to divulge to a school counselor or someone at home. It provides an adult who can be there to just sit back, listen, and make you feel that the ball keeps rolling.

3. I think this ties in greatly with the leadership training aspects of the Cadet Program. A Chaplain/Character Development Instructor can provide seminar on a particular topic from a perspective that may differ from what a standard line officer/cadet might offer on a corresponding subject. When addressing some of the specific traits of leadership, a Chaplain's presentation and interactive discussion on the moral compass can coincide greatly with another member's lesson on the discipline of subordinates and adapting to the responsiveness of others.

4. One more thing I think a Chaplain can provide that maybe a line officer couldn't is during those away activities where parents may be a bit hesitant about sending their kids to (i.e., Encampment, field training, etc.) is that the Chaplain is often that person who is far enough outside of the scope of the operation that their opinion may hold more weight when they say "Trust us, your kids are in good hands." Now it's coming from the Chaplain, someone who presents integrity and openness, and not the Training Officer or the Cadet-in-Charge.

5. I'll say, I have yet to see a Chaplain in my unit or in others that I have visited and talked with express any investment in training another, whether someone wanting to assist in the Chaplain Corps in a religious role or as a Character Development Instructor. Not much to comment on here.


But back to the original question at-hand:
Can Chaplains be on the review board? They most certainly can.

Should they be?
I personally say no. I really can't think of any time that I would want to have a Chaplain asking me questions about my performance and then give me my sustains and improves. It makes for an awkward boundary.

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Eclipse
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Posts: 29,553

« Reply #31 on: July 15, 2016, 06:57:06 PM »

The idea that Chaplains, without specific education in counseling, are any more or less capable of advising, counseling,
or offering "integrity" then the average senior member of the same skillset is a bias based on the perspective of "higher-calling".

If you don't recognize a "higher", or the "higher" isn't the same one you recognize, this "calling" is irrelevant to you, and someone's
guidance based on it will be of little value or even suspect. Apple users are called by the higher power of design and ease of use,
if you're PC user, you could care less and treat their "calling" as a "choice" irrelevant to you.

By far CAP has always been, and continues to be, like the society in which it exists, a WASP-ish universe.  That is evidenced by
the rhetoric, behavior, and curriculum of the membership and Chaplain corps.  Messages book-ended by prayer requests when people are
ill or recently passed, invocations, the idea that cadets need to be "shepparded", etc.

Few and far between are unit activities which interfere with religious obligations and when they do, the best case is to simply make a choice,
not expect the universe to conform.  Harsh?  Yes.  Reality?  Also yes.  Try missing a mandatory soccer practice or hockey game because of
your religion.  I'll be over here waiting.

Further, it's all teacups and salad dressing until someone is far enough off the center as to "offend" (a word people use these days when their soda contains too much ice),
or "ignore" (as if activity CC's didn't have enough pressure already that they have to try and navigate a calendar which literally does not
have a single day on it which is not someone's religious holiday).

Pro Tip: Just make a decision and move on.  No one got up on Tuesday to discriminate against your religion.  In CAP it's NEVER a religious
discussion and it's ALWAYS a calendar discussion.  Many "religious" holidays (i.e. Christian) are now also secular holidays - Christmas, Easter,
SuperBowl Sunday, etc. The reality is, CAP members will not participate those weekends for 80 reasons exclusive of the religious tradition.
You can't run anything in CAP if 80% of the members won't show.  It's not discrimination when 80% of the membership can only attend the
weekend you can't.  It's the calendar, of which CAP has zero control.

Consider the reaction of many of our more "seasoned" WASP-ish members if instead of Christian invocations in emails and person, Muslim
ones were used.  There is a phrase of considerable sensitivity right now because it is invoked by those who are trying to change society
with violence while hiding behind religion, however that greeting is common among ethnicities that practice Islam.

Imagine the "fun" of a Chaplain greeting everyone on a meeting night in that manner.

IMHO, religion is an "opinion", and like many, politics, for example, should be left at home.  I realize that's gonna ruffle feathers,
but there you go.  I have had the privilege of dealing with a number of excellent Chaplains who were nothing but text book
examples of servant and counsel, and have I benefited by their presence in times of stress, but for the most part this was due to who
they were as men, and not who they were as clergy (could be wrong, it happened once a couple years ago).

I've also had the "fun" of dealing with a couple who just didn't "get it" and were HUGE mission liabilities not to mention just
walking problems.  People looking to convert and save, who yelled "discrimination" the minute you showed them the regs.
Those situations worked out about as well as you'd imagine.

Look at the CDI program, which despite attempts to secularize it, still contains religious references and verbiage, and
which still remains firmly in the Chaplaincy's OPR.  It's a typically CAP attempt to please everyone while ultimately
not pleasing anyone.  Only the Chaplain or a CDI can present it.  Oops, we don't have those, so the CC can,
and BTW, anyone can be a CDI.  What's the point of all those hoops just to talk about things the average parent talks
about with their own kids?

This isn't a knock against the well-intentioned members only looking to bring their "skills" to bear within a CAP context.
We need them and more like them, just not in the religious lane (I realize CAP, at least from the perspective of rhetoric, disagrees).

The same goes for EMTs, LEOs, FD, and prior and current military personnel.  In all those cases, their mindset and
personality inclination is towards the service of others, the issue being that their relevent experience in dealing with an
all-volunteer, non-medical, non-law enforcement, paramilitary paradigm is limited.

Again, IMHO, the Chaplaincy, like Health Services, are hold-overs from an attempt to model the military "24x7x365" model
where all needs for sustenance must be met.  That is not, and never has been, CAP, where members have their own clergy and
health care providers, and isn't scaled or scoped to provide those services when they don't.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2016, 07:49:20 PM by Eclipse » Logged


Fubar
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 741

« Reply #32 on: July 15, 2016, 11:15:47 PM »

The idea that Chaplains, without specific education in counseling, are any more or less capable of advising, counseling,
or offering "integrity" then the average senior member of the same skillset is a bias based on the perspective of "higher-calling".

Eclipse, with over 25,600 posts you've authored some real gems over the years, but this one needs to be placed on a letterhead and sent up the chain of command immediately. Of course the people who administer these programs won't want to lose their positions and would fight any meaningful changes, but it should still make it to the CAP/CC's desk.
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Chappie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,076

« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2016, 04:20:06 PM »

The idea that Chaplains, without specific education in counseling, are any more or less capable of advising, counseling,
or offering "integrity" then the average senior member of the same skillset is a bias based on the perspective of "higher-calling".

<snip> Of course the people who administer these programs won't want to lose their positions and would fight any meaningful changes, but it should still make it to the CAP/CC's desk.<snip>

Sorry for the late response as this has been a long week....it is not "positions" or programs that are being administrated that we would fight for....it would be for the opportunity to continue to serve our membership in meaningful ways.   There is a need for the CAP Chaplain Corps...and for Chaplain Corps personnel to provide their services to our membership.

On another note...following the National Conference, I can provide a brief picture of what the Chaplain Corps has accomplished in the previous year and past 6 months.  These will be shared/discussed at the CCAC meeting conducted on 8/10.
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Chappie
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« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2016, 06:37:24 PM »

<snip>The idea that Chaplains, without specific education in counseling, are any more or less capable of advising, counseling,
or offering "integrity" then the average senior member of the same skillset is a bias based on the perspective of "higher-calling". <snip>


The qualifications for a Chaplain appointment have a "higher bar" rather than a "higher calling".   It is a professional appointment, based on an academic standard (which the average senior member has not attained).   Part of a clergyman's training includes counseling -- due to the nature of the work we do which involves people.   

And on a side note...just as senior members get tasked by the AFCCC to perform missions, members of the CAP Chaplain Corps get tasked by USAF Chaplain Corps to perform missions/services (been doing that for 60 years as well as providing services to our own CAP membership).
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Eclipse
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« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2016, 10:55:23 PM »

<snip>The idea that Chaplains, without specific education in counseling, are any more or less capable of advising, counseling,
or offering "integrity" then the average senior member of the same skillset is a bias based on the perspective of "higher-calling". <snip>


The qualifications for a Chaplain appointment have a "higher bar" rather than a "higher calling".   It is a professional appointment, based on an academic standard (which the average senior member has not attained).   Part of a clergyman's training includes counseling -- due to the nature of the work we do which involves people.   

You somewhat missed my point, especially regarding "integrity" which seems to be a presupposition in regards to anyone
involved with organized religion (at least the "good" religions).

The "thread" of this thread seemed to be that Chaplains should either be shielded from the review boards because their
integrity might come into question should counseling be needed, or that they should be above such mortal coils, again because
of the presumed "+1 integrity" that comes with non-secular endorsement.  To which my response is that is that non-secular involvement
holds no weight for the audience, it may well work against the intention.

To make a poor example - I could personally care less what AOPA thinks about anything, but many pilots hold them
to the level of a religion.

Medical professionals,  educators, pilots, legal professionals, finance professionals, and current and prior military
all receive mission-skills related appointments based on higher education, rare would be the case that an assumption would be made that
any of those individuals have the +1 Integrity of a Chaplain, who receives it based on the religious endorsement, and therefore the
assumption of "higher calling", which gets back to my first point on the matter.

After all, it's not the "Counseling Corps", it's the Chaplain Corps.

I have, in fact, had the exact discussion with a couple CAP chaplains that ultimately their only authority is their faith and deity, and they
are only beholden to CAP leaders to the point that those two don't conflict.  I get it, and understand that, but how is a CC who is primarily concerned
with CAP policies and regulations supposed to react to that?

In the military, failure to follow procedure and regulations has legal ramifications, which would tend to be a limiting factor.  No
such limit exists in CAP for someone who feels shepherding is the higher priority.

In regards to counseling, there are any number of members who are LPCCs, LSWs, Psychologists, Psychiatrists, who serve in CAP
and could assist members in those regards, but I don't think anyone would instill the level of "integrity" presumed in a Chaplain
because someone went to UIC and completed their residency.

My point to this is that this CAP members who are clergy could certainly provide the same counsel and comfort to those
so inclined without the mantel of a Chaplaincy, and that we have any number of members who bring those same
skillsets to the table who are not religiously inclined, or do not share their faith publicly.

The primary curriculum which affects cadets, CDI, is still steeped in religious verbiage and phraseology, owing to those involved in drafting it,
however when the push came to shove on CAP reality of staffing, basically anyone can present it and anyone can be a CDI,
which as far as I am concerned is fine, except that there is an underlying pressure that it "really should be a Chaplain",
to which I would ask "Why?  When there is to be no religious message, and the topics are common every day situations."

Ultimately, whatever brings people comfort in times of stress or need is fine with me, but on the macro level the majority
of members look outside CAP for their nonsecular and health care needs, and that's how it should be, with no insinuation that
CAP has the means or mission to do otherwise.
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Chappie
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Posts: 1,076

« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2016, 11:50:15 PM »

<snip>The idea that Chaplains, without specific education in counseling, are any more or less capable of advising, counseling,
or offering "integrity" then the average senior member of the same skillset is a bias based on the perspective of "higher-calling". <snip>


The qualifications for a Chaplain appointment have a "higher bar" rather than a "higher calling".   It is a professional appointment, based on an academic standard (which the average senior member has not attained).   Part of a clergyman's training includes counseling -- due to the nature of the work we do which involves people.   

You somewhat missed my point, especially regarding "integrity" which seems to be a presupposition in regards to anyone
involved with organized religion (at least the "good" religions).

The "thread" of this thread seemed to be that Chaplains should either be shielded from the review boards because their
integrity might come into question should counseling be needed, or that they should be above such mortal coils, again because
of the presumed "+1 integrity" that comes with non-secular endorsement.  To which my response is that is that non-secular involvement
holds no weight for the audience, it may well work against the intention.

To make a poor example - I could personally care less what AOPA thinks about anything, but many pilots hold them
to the level of a religion.

Medical professionals,  educators, pilots, legal professionals, finance professionals, and current and prior military
all receive mission-skills related appointments based on higher education, rare would be the case that an assumption would be made that
any of those individuals have the +1 Integrity of a Chaplain, who receives it based on the religious endorsement, and therefore the
assumption of "higher calling", which gets back to my first point on the matter.

After all, it's not the "Counseling Corps", it's the Chaplain Corps.

I have, in fact, had the exact discussion with a couple CAP chaplains that ultimately their only authority is their faith and deity, and they
are only beholden to CAP leaders to the point that those two don't conflict.  I get it, and understand that, but how is a CC who is primarily concerned
with CAP policies and regulations supposed to react to that?

In the military, failure to follow procedure and regulations has legal ramifications, which would tend to be a limiting factor.  No
such limit exists in CAP for someone who feels shepherding is the higher priority.

In regards to counseling, there are any number of members who are LPCCs, LSWs, Psychologists, Psychiatrists, who serve in CAP
and could assist members in those regards, but I don't think anyone would instill the level of "integrity" presumed in a Chaplain
because someone went to UIC and completed their residency.

My point to this is that this CAP members who are clergy could certainly provide the same counsel and comfort to those
so inclined without the mantel of a Chaplaincy, and that we have any number of members who bring those same
skillsets to the table who are not religiously inclined, or do not share their faith publicly.

<snip>The primary curriculum which affects cadets, CDI, is still steeped in religious verbiage and phraseology, owing to those involved in drafting it,
however when the push came to shove on CAP reality of staffing, basically anyone can present it and anyone can be a CDI,
which as far as I am concerned is fine, except that there is an underlying pressure that it "really should be a Chaplain",
to which I would ask "Why?  When there is to be no religious message, and the topics are common every day situations."
<snip>

I would respectfully disagree that the curriculum is "still steeped in religious verbiage and phraseology" but it is probably in the eye of the reader :)  There is no underlying pressure that "it really should be a Chaplain".   Just take a look at the appointments made since the CAPR 265-1 was revised when it came to the requirements of the CDI appointment.   The concern that squadron commanders and most wing/region chaplains (had a few diehards opposed to what change were made to appointment) were constantly addressing dealt with squadron coverage and training.   After several years of kicking the can down the road, in the last two-three years, we finally have a realistic set of requirements for CDI appointments, and a Specialty Track for CDIs that has substance, a task force has been formed and is addressing the curriculum.  We have several top-notch CDIs who are educators who are taking the lead in developing the curriculum.  It may be a while but the final product will be a good one.
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Eclipse
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« Reply #37 on: July 19, 2016, 01:18:32 AM »

The concern that squadron commanders and most wing/region chaplains (had a few diehards opposed to what change were made to appointment) were constantly addressing dealt with squadron coverage and training.   

So the answer to "coverage and training" is to reduce the people who are approved to present CD classes?

I have CP staff now, and had to deal with it in other roles before, who have been in the program 30+ years from cadet
though darkside, who all of a sudden couldn't present ML CD classes because they weren't a CDI or Commander.

Also, if the CDI program was / is supposed to be intended as a secular counterpart to the Chaplaincy, that's one thing,
but there's a religious quote on the cover of the Specialty Track guide, and the mission is stated as
"Contributors to the Chaplain Corps and Cadet Program Missions" in that order, still uses terms like "moral", and stresses
the religious aspects at least as much as the secular instruction.

And who is the arbiter of CDIs?  The Wing DCP?  No, the Wing Chaplain.  Why?  Especially for any member who
has no interest in supporting the religious aspects of the CDI program.

The Technician Rating, especially, has been an issue raised to me in regards to expectations:

Provide non-clergy support to assist chaplains in providing ministry to the CAP
community. These duties may include, providing administrative or logistical support
at an activity, acquiring/performing musical accompaniment for services, visiting sick,
injured, elderly and home-bound members, providing non-denominational prayers, or
other duties.


Seek the qualifications and knowledge necessary to support chaplains during
emergency services missions as a mission staff assistant (MSA).


Perform CDI duties under the direction of a chaplain when one is assigned. When a
chaplain is not assigned, the CDI works under the direction of the wing chaplain and
with the squadron commander.


The first two requires religious activities, even though the CDI might not have any professed faith whatsoever,
and is there ti support the CP mission, not the religious one.

The third sets the CDI in a separate chain of command "to the Wing Chaplain and 'with' the Squadron CC?"
No thank you.

The senior rating requires participation in religious services.

Provide non-clergy support at a CAP religious service. This may include a major
portion/component of the service, run vespers or similar service at an activity,
arrange for access to outside services if a CAP service is not available, or
observance of a religious holiday. These should be done under close supervision
of a CAP chaplain. Costs to complete this requirement should not be at the CDIís
expense.

Not to mention vespers are a Christian thing.  You can make the argument that
Chaplains sign on to be faith agnostic, but CDIs?

Clearly a religious program.

CDIs are to Mission Observers as Chaplains are to Mission Pilots.

Here is my suggestion for those looking to work the program. 

Create a "Character and Counseling Directorate" fully secular, focusing
only on the non-religious cadet instruction and counseling skills needed to provide
comforts in times of distress or confusion outside any connection to religion.

The separate the Chaplain Directorate from any OPR with the CP curriculum.
That sets both houses to where they should be in terms of mission and purpose, without
force cross-talk between the two.

Advanced credit could be granted to those with relevent formal training, but the impetus would be
internal education of the people need to provide those services.

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Chappie
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Posts: 1,076

« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2016, 04:46:33 AM »

The whole idea of having an appointed CDI or Chaplain teaching Character Development rests on one word: accountability.

Is CD being presented as a required element of the Cadet Training Program?   You are to be commended for having a trustworthy staff however there were widespread reports of cadets never receiving a CD forum yet being promoted.   What does that say about teaching, modeling and embracing our Core Values?!?!

Are the lessons presented using the approved curriculum???   The curriculum -- yes I know it is not always the best...but we are working on it-- has the the approval of NHQ.   In other words, the presenter -- CDI or Chaplain -- should follow the approved curriculum.  This protects them and the corporation.

Back to accountability -- having a person presenting the CD element who isn't appointed by NHQ takes away the accountability factor.  Who knows who is teaching what and where???  I know...I hear of Chaplains (even CDIs) going off the range and presenting a mini-sermon, theological thesis, leading a kumbaya session or whatever. Based on their appointment and oversight of the wing chaplain, there will be administrative counseling.   As a former wing and region chaplain, I have "encouraged" people of that mind-set to find another place to take their zeal.  And I hear if squadron commanders pencil whipping this element and signing off the CD requirement for either saying or appointing someone to tell the cadets "Now play nicely with each other" -- check in the box.  Or a squadron member just going off on some topic found in the newspaper....never using the F-A-C-S model to engage the cadets to assist them on developing their ethical framework.


The referenced requirement in the Senior rating is one of five items that they can perform.  Here is the exact way the section on page 9 reads:  "Since receiving your Technician rating perform any ONE of the following:
Yes, providing non-clergy support is there...but there are four other items listed to choose from including assistance at an ES mission, teaching CD to two units other than your own, developing and submitting a CD lesson plan to the Cnief, and participating in the planning/implementing of a multi-day activity that is not primarily a Chaplain Corps activity to assure that Chaplain Corps activities are included.   

I dare say that those 4 are not religious in nature. 

The CAPP 225 is a pamphlet not a regulation.   Note the wording, "may include" or "is expected to" The intent of the wording is two-fold:

1) Pamphlets are much easier to revise than are regs.   The CDI specialty track has not been revised since it was introduced in 1999 and I am sure that we will see changes. But it was imperative that a specialty track of substance be developed.  As a former wing and region chaplain, I had seen this particular item discussed by senior leadership in the Chaplain Corps for years and nothing done in regards to the Specialty Track until the current Chief took it on (see below).

2) the wording was adopted so that CDIs who were so inclined could participate/facilitate those activities. 
There was a time when there were such tight restrictions/prohibitions on what a CDI could or could not do, the pamphlet was written in such a way there was an approval for -- again for those so inclined -- to perform those activities.  There are many CDIs who want to assist Chaplains or are members of the clergy who do not meet the criteria for a Chaplain's appointment.  This gives the opportunity to perform more than just teaching a Character Development lesson once a month. If a CDI doesn't feel inclined or comfortable with the items in the section you referred to, so be it.  They certain won't be excommunicated :).

CDIs should not be considered either "Chaplain wannabes" or 2nd class citizens within the Chaplain Corps.  They are a valued part of the Chaplain Corps team.

This pamphlet was developed by CDIs.  The chair person was a CDI.   This is the what they came up with and presented to the Chief for his approval.   

As for the curriculum --- there was a writing team comprised of USAF Chaplains who compiles the curriculum ("Values for Living") from the late 60's to 2000 when the USAF no longer supported CAP with a CAP-USAF chaplain.  The current format was developed by Rob Smith when he was writing curriculum for Cadet Programs.   And that has been the format since 2004. A task force is in place and the curriculum/format is being looked at again.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2016, 05:06:23 AM by Chappie » Logged
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Eclipse
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« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2016, 05:15:33 AM »

The whole idea of having an appointed CDI or Chaplain teaching Character Development rests on one word: accountability.

Is CD being presented as a required element of the Cadet Training Program?   You are to be commended for having a trustworthy staff however there were widespread reports of cadets never receiving a CD forum yet being promoted.   What does that say about teaching, modeling and embracing our Core Values?!?!

This is a command failing of ethics and integrity, not to mention higher HQ not properly auditing.  No different then units who
Parker-51 PT because it's "too cold to run outside", or literally who don't do PT ever.

Are the lessons presented using the approved curriculum???   The curriculum -- yes I know it is not always the best...but we are working on it-- has the the approval of NHQ.   In other words, the presenter -- CDI or Chaplain -- should follow the approved curriculum.  This protects them and the corporation.

Back to accountability -- having a person presenting the CD element who isn't appointed by NHQ takes away the accountability factor.  Who knows who is teaching what and where???  I know...I hear of Chaplains (even CDIs) going off the range and presenting a mini-sermon, theological thesis, leading a kumbaya session or whatever. Based on their appointment and oversight of the wing chaplain, there will be administrative counseling.   As a former wing and region chaplain, I have "encouraged" people of that mind-set to find another place to take their zeal.  And I hear if squadron commanders pencil whipping this element and signing off the CD requirement for either saying or appointing someone to tell the cadets "Now play nicely with each other" -- check in the box.  Or a squadron member just going off on some topic found in the newspaper....never using the F-A-C-S model to engage the cadets to assist them on developing their ethical framework.

The problem here is that a CC allowing someone to go off the reservation regarding CD, isn't likely to change his
attitude because a CDI got a stern email from the Wing Chaplain, nor is there currently a requirement to have anyone
but the CC present the materials.  Lot's of "should", but at some point NHQ realized that you can't force unfunded mandates
on squadrons without shutting them down.

My two most qualified, experienced CP people can't facilitate the classes without going through hoops
they aren't interested in.  They already look like a contestant on AGT as it is just keep the hoops they
have moving day to day.

And I don't know how you resolve that thorny issue.  You can't mandate Chaplains or CDIs, since ultimately
those appointments are command prerogative, not to mention NHQ has no way to grow those members,
so the whole rhetoric about accountability becomes just that, with no real power to fix things that doesn't shut them
down.

Honestly, considering the topics in 265-1, a field-grade CAP officer with a Master in CP who is also a parent isn't
at least as qualified as a CAP Chaplain with the same or less CAP-relevent experience? 
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