Uniform poll-- Aircrew Uniforms

[RiverAux]

I have been noticing for several years the decline in the wear of the AF style flight suit by CAP aircrews as well as the decline in any of the CAP flight suit versions and that more and more aircrews are wearing the gray pants/blue shirt combo.

Personally I think the reasons for this are easy to understand.  The primary reason is probably that it is more comfortable (in warm weather), cheaper, and more all-around useful than a flight suit.  I do not think it has anything to do with "anti-military" or anti-AF feelings. 

I've got some mixed feelings about this.  On the one hand, there have been a few times when there have actually been flight crews all in the same uniform -- a rarity in the past.  That increased "uniformity" is good for us.  However, they inevitable byproduct of the decline the wear of the AF or CAP "military" uniforms is a loss of our historic paramilitary image, which I believe is a bad thing. 

I believe it is California that requires NOMEX on all flights so those folks will probably be choosing Option 1 or 2.  (Lets not discuss that particular topic here).   

[arajca]

IMHO, the problem is many more aircrew are having to purchase their own flying uniforms because there are not as many available to be issued. With nomex flight suits costing $150+ (not including ebay, which many CAP aircrew members don't use, based on my experieince with them), they are looking at a significantly lower priced uniform.


From talking with many a/c members, they either don't have the computer literacy to use ebay or similar sites, or don't the methods of payment. This does not include all a/c members, but does inlcude many.

[flynd94]

CAWG does require flight suits on missions.  Its also a PCR requirement.  I think anyone who fly's a mission should be in.  I prefer NOMEX to the polo shirt.  We had a member who was involved in a crash a few years back and, the only parts of his body burned were his hands and face.  They were sans NOMEX.  I wear my CAP flight suit on every mission along with my NOMEX gloves.

[SarDragon]

I got both of my flight suits on eBay - green a few years ago when its wear was still authorized for "fuzzies", and blue about four months ago. Each was less than $100, and in excellent condition.

[Al Sayre]

I've got 4 green nomex flight suits from ebay, and the most I paid was $30.00... for any one.  You just have to be patient

[SarDragon]

Ah, yes, patience. First you need to find one of the right size, then you have to win the bid. I had a budget, so it took me three tries on the blue one.

[BillB]

I lucked out and had an old USAF flight suit that was the wrong size, got it on eBay for $20. The local University AFROTC somehow had a surplus of brand new, still in the plastic wrapping, Nomex flight suits they were sending to DRMO and I traded for one my size.

[Pumbaa]

I got my green FS on ebay for under $30.

I agree though, if you are not patient, nor internet savvy, you will spend a whole lot more $$ for a FS.  I agree the $$ would be a big reason for people choosing an alternate.

Still I'll stick with the FS... I don't forget the 'chick' factor.. Man those hotties, dig a guy in a flight suit!   

[Al Sayre]

...every girl's crazy 'bout a sharp dressd man (in baggy green pj's)

[stillamarine]

Our minumum required is Grey/Blue, but people can wear flight suits. I think the reason most wear the grey/blue (I'm talking about here only) is how hot it is and the fact that right now we are flying 2 sorties a day. Much cheaper to have a couple pairs of pants and a couple polos then to have a couple green bags. Just an opinion. I plan on getting a flight suit when I find one in my size.

[Hawk200]

I picked up a few on eBay for a good price. Two, I got in the wrong size (I've gotten a little wider since then), for $35 each, another I got for $30.

May put them up in the marketplace, since no one in my unit seems to be able to wear them (most of them are bigger than me).

[stillamarine]

Well if anyone comes across a 44 short or regular let me know 

[Dragoon]

The golf shirt is indeed really popular. And it has resulted in a brand new attitude toward CAP.

I was out an an airport with my Observer trainee, each of us in the blue field uniform.  We were passed by an airport flight instructor who said "Oh, you're Civil Air Patrol.  I had no idea you guys had ranks!"

He knew what CAP was.  He just had no clue were were at all military, as he'd only seen golf-shirted members.

I would be a lot happier with the golf shirt if it was mandatory to have you name and grade embroidered on it.

[LTC_Gadget]

I got a brand-new navy blue flight suit off ebay recently for $59 total.  As someone indicated previously, patience is a virtue..

V/R,

[Smokey]

You may want to try           www.flighthelmet.com           Prices are very reasonable.......based on conditon including unissued for about $110.  They have both navy blue and green zoom bags. 

[O-Rex]

I got a brand-new navy blue flight suit off ebay recently for $59 total.  As someone indicated previously, patience is a virtue..

V/R,

That was me!    Blue Nomex fo $59 was a steal!!  I got new-in-the bag green ones for $85 a piece: they were in an oddball category in "e-bay motors," and nobody bid against me.   

I got new blue nomex for $190 from Aureus International.  I thought about buying the utility uniform from Vanguard, until I saw one up-close. . . .

For some reason, I like the "blue-bags:"  reminds me of the digs from 'SeaQuest DSV' or 'ST: Enterprise.' 

First thing I did was take the flaps off the left sleeve pockets (doesn't everyone??)  used the material to make a pen-pocket in the lower right-leg (that was the only feature of the "McPeak" flightsuit that I liked.)

While we are on the subject, I have some "cherry" flightsuits that might interest some of you: I will post on "marketplace."

[wingnut]

I think that the Flight suit should be a National requirement. I flew in the USAF and I always (and I mean Always) had to wear a Flt suit. CAP has not always worn flight suits, so it is a catch 22. Pacific Region requires it because we have had several mission accidents that burned people very badly. I was on an Archer Mission in AZ and they did not wear Flt suits (Too Hot). But we did, sweat and all.

[SAR-EMT1]

Im not an aviation expert. But since when did our aircraft not come with cool ventilation?

[RiverAux]

Air temp vents at 1000' feet in hot weather aren't what I would consider "cool". 

[Smokey]

That big fan in the front is to keep the pilot cool.......If you don't think so, when it stops watch the pilot sweat

[Eclipse]

I think that the Flight suit should be a National requirement. I flew in the USAF and I always (and I mean Always) had to wear a Flt suit.

And I would imagine that you were >issued< yours (certainly as least the first one), not to mention you were getting paid for your service and likely had a clothing allowance.

Requiring a $150+ piece of clothing to get into an airplane will just become one more barrier to being on aircrew at all.  Yes, you can get them used cheap, but if we wind up requiring them, you'll have units with one stinky shared one - just great.

Not to mention the fact that in order to be effective, you have to require a fire retardant jacket as well - and at last check, those start in the $150 range as well.  It does no good to wear an accelerant (Nylon) over a retardant (Nomex).

So now we're up to $300 entry cost to fly in our planes - and what about cadets?  Its hard enough to get them in any uniform sometimes.

Until CAP starts issuing uniforms, requiring anything other than the golf shirt is an uphill climb and just not reasonable.

[Eclipse]

Im not an aviation expert. But since when did our aircraft not come with cool ventilation?

Sit on a ramp for 45 minutes in mid-August while base ops tries to figure out whether you are cleared.
We lose a lot of lunches because of the heat, fumes and noise.

[SAR-EMT1]

Im not an aviation expert. But since when did our aircraft not come with cool ventilation?

Sit on a ramp for 45 minutes in mid-August while base ops tries to figure out whether you are cleared.
We lose a lot of lunches because of the heat, fumes and noise.

Midway, O'Hare, or DuPaige?

Ah.... the joy that is purgatory that is the Chicago metroplex.

Here is a thought... order your takeoff takeout, that way when you are ready to leave so is your flight. That way hopefully you wont lose your lunch. Because if you lose your lunch... it just ends up in the bag that is your flightsuit. The smell of which is enough to convince your crewmates to SET you on fire. 

[RiverAux]

I'm very surprised by the results of the poll so far.  Either we've got a lot of lurkers from Pacific Region (where everybody is in one) or the Air Force green flight suit is still being chosen by most flightcrews everywhere.  Interesting...

[Eclipse]

Im not an aviation expert. But since when did our aircraft not come with cool ventilation?

Sit on a ramp for 45 minutes in mid-August while base ops tries to figure out whether you are cleared.
We lose a lot of lunches because of the heat, fumes and noise.

Midway, O'Hare, or DuPaige?

Ah.... the joy that is purgatory that is the Chicago metroplex.

Here is a thought... order your takeoff takeout, that way when you are ready to leave so is your flight. That way hopefully you wont lose your lunch. Because if you lose your lunch... it just ends up in the bag that is your flightsuit. The smell of which is enough to convince your crewmates to SET you on fire. 

Nope - try Frankfort, sat there the longest, and you can't sit on the ramp very long at Midway without having a heavy blow you off the runway doing a Full Engine Run-up!

[ddelaney103]

Frankly, we just don't have the risk exposure the AF types do.  They're dealing with lots of JP-8 and people who are actively trying to cause a flash fire with missiles and guns.

Based on anecdotal evidence we have one, maybe two people whose lives have been saved by aramid fibers.  If CAP aircrew get hurt in a crash, the usual cause is blunt force trauma.

There's probably a much stronger case to be made for flight helmets than flight suits.

[Mustang]

I think that the Flight suit should be a National requirement. I flew in the USAF and I always (and I mean Always) had to wear a Flt suit.

That'd be an awfully expensive unfunded mandate, don't you think?  Sage green bags can be had from eBay cheaply enough, but good luck if you need a dark blue one -- for which you'll shell out on the order of $200 from either Aureus Intl or Flight Suits Ltd. (I'd never consider buying one from CAP/Vanguard--the quality is poor, poor, poor and at $268, the cost is outrageous!

[lordmonar]

There's probably a much stronger case to be made for flight helmets than flight suits.

I wonder how many people who swear that we have to wear Nomex to save our lives also say we should all be wearing Survival Vests and Flotation collars?

We have the same chance of drowning and dieing of exposure as we do of dieing in a flash fire.

[Smokey]

I for one wear an SRU-21 survival vest packed with goodies and have a small survival bag I bring with on flights.   Plus for those flights near/over water I do have  an inflatable life vest.   Guess those days of being a Boy Scout (Be prepared) along with having flown  in military aircraft make me one of those strange folks.

[ddelaney103]

There's probably a much stronger case to be made for flight helmets than flight suits.

I wonder how many people who swear that we have to wear Nomex to save our lives also say we should all be wearing Survival Vests and Flotation collars?

We have the same chance of drowning and dieing of exposure as we do of dieing in a flash fire.

Even though we fly high enough to get to the edge, we do wear PFD's when we patrol the Chesapeake Bay.  We also have a raft and kit in the back.

Fortunately, the PFD's were blue, so they didn't clash with the Mess Dress...

[CFI_Ed]

I for one wear an SRU-21 survival vest packed with goodies and have a small survival bag I bring with on flights.   Plus for those flights near/over water I do have  an inflatable life vest.   Guess those days of being a Boy Scout (Be prepared) along with having flown  in military aircraft make me one of those strange folks.

But consider how much of a useful load the C172S/C182T/C182TNavIII have with three "adult"  CAP aircrew and fuel at the tabs.   If everyone wore the SRU-21 with survival goodies, along with the pilot/observer/scanner's pubs and gear, the aircraft  probably exceeds is close to max gross weight. 

[wingnut]

ahh yes crasshopper, very true, to save weight, to please don't carry basic survival  gear, all one needs is sharp knife and eat the other fat CAP pilot next to you if crash, if he cooked all the better.

[Hawk200]

And I would imagine that you were >issued< yours (certainly as least the first one), not to mention you were getting paid for your service and likely had a clothing allowance.

Military aircrews are issued the Nomex, it's not a clothing bag item. And Air Force officers don't recieve a clothing allowance. Don't know about other branches, but would imagine that it's the same.

But consider how much of a useful load the C172S/C182T/C182TNavIII have with three "adult"  CAP aircrew and fuel at the tabs.   If everyone wore the SRU-21 with survival goodies, along with the pilot/observer/scanner's pubs and gear, the aircraft  probably exceeds is close to max gross weight. 

In a 182? A 172, I would agree, but a 182? Your aircrew would have to be pretty large to start pushing the weight limit.  Using FAA standard weight per person (170 pounds), and assuming 80 gallons (an approximation, it's actually higher), you'd still be well within within weight limits. If you're only flying 2 hour sorties, then you can reduce fuel load. I don't think weight limit is a valid argument against carrying survival gear. Old adage: "carry an umbrella, it will never rain."

[Pylon]

Fortunately, the PFD's were blue, so they didn't clash with the Mess Dress...

I know there's a story there...   

[CFI_Ed]

And I would imagine that you were >issued< yours (certainly as least the first one), not to mention you were getting paid for your service and likely had a clothing allowance.

Military aircrews are issued the Nomex, it's not a clothing bag item. And Air Force officers don't recieve a clothing allowance. Don't know about other branches, but would imagine that it's the same.

But consider how much of a useful load the C172S/C182T/C182TNavIII have with three "adult"  CAP aircrew and fuel at the tabs.   If everyone wore the SRU-21 with survival goodies, along with the pilot/observer/scanner's pubs and gear, the aircraft  probably exceeds is close to max gross weight. 

In a 182? A 172, I would agree, but a 182? Your aircrew would have to be pretty large to start pushing the weight limit.  Using FAA standard weight per person (170 pounds), and assuming 80 gallons (an approximation, it's actually higher), you'd still be well within within weight limits. If you're only flying 2 hour sorties, then you can reduce fuel load. I don't think weight limit is a valid argument against carrying survival gear. Old adage: "carry an umbrella, it will never rain."

For the NAV III's we've got the useful load is an average 1050 lbs.  Fuel load is normally 64 gallons (@ tabs 384 lbs) which leaves 666 lbs.  And if we go with the two front seaters weighing 200 and 220, and 200 in the back (a pilot on his first scanner mission  ) this will leave you with 46 pounds to spare for survival gear and pubs.  And then the max landing weight is 2950 so you'll have to stay airborne until you burn off 150 pounds of fuel.   Downloading fuel prior to a mission usually can't be accomplished since most G.A. airfields don't have a defuel truck.  So, in that case someone will have to let the fuel truck driver how much fuel to pump in based on who the next crew will be.

The 172S models we have are also in the same situation.  The new airplanes are just heavy when they come out of the factory now.  The only new 182T that we that have that isn't "porky" is a round dial bird without an autopilot.

[RiverAux]

I don't have the figures but it seems we have more problems (weight-wise) with 182s than the 172s. 

[Hawk200]

I don't have the figures but it seems we have more problems (weight-wise) with 182s than the 172s. 

I pretty much looked up the specs for a 182T. It was the first links that came up on Yahoo! . From what I saw it had a 1140 lb useful load. With three people on board at 200 lbs each, there is still plenty of load left for fuel and survival gear if necessary. The specs indicated 88 gallons of fuel capacity.

Now, balance is a different story. I'm not a pilot, my father is (he's got almost 4000 hrs), I've had six hours in my logbook for almost 22 years (yeah, I know, I'm a little slow on the hours). He may be able to tell me if the balance would be a problem. But from the info I'm seeing, weight wouldn't really be an issue.

[lordmonar]

Using FAA standard weight per person (170 pounds),

Well there's your problem....the FAA standard is only about 30 years out of date.  Our pilots usually use 190 or 200 as a standard when you consider people&gear.

[RiverAux]

If you fill up the tanks on the 182 you are more likely to have problems.  We usually only fill to the tabs but if the ramp guy goes all the way we're sometimes screwed on weight. 

[jimmydeanno]

Using FAA standard weight per person (170 pounds),

Well there's your problem....the FAA standard is only about 30 years out of date.  Our pilots usually use 190 or 200 as a standard when you consider people&gear.

must be nice...I can't remember the last time we were able to have a scanner in the back seat because the pilot and the observer used up the weight...

[CFI_Ed]

This thread is now squawking 7500

[lordmonar]

Using FAA standard weight per person (170 pounds),

Well there's your problem....the FAA standard is only about 30 years out of date.  Our pilots usually use 190 or 200 as a standard when you consider people&gear.

must be nice...I can't remember the last time we were able to have a scanner in the back seat because the pilot and the observer used up the weight...

I'm not saying its anything bad....I weigh in at 180lbs dry...add my survival gear, binoculars, digital camera, knee board, task guide, gridded maps, headset, a couple of bottles of water and I am well over the 170 FAA rule of thumb.....and I'm not even that over weight (I should be about 150-160.).

If the FAA is still teaching 170lb per person...then it is no wonder we have so many overloaded accidents.

[sardak]

FAA Advisory Circular AC120-27E, published in June, 2005 has these weights to be used by commercial and charter aircraft.  Aircraft with fewer than 5 seats must use actual passenger and baggage weights.

Average adult male 200 lbs. summer, 205 lbs. winter
Average adult female 179 lbs. summer, 184 lbs. winter
These include a 16 lb. allowance for carry-on baggage.

Average flight crewmember 190 lbs., 240 lbs. with bags
Male flight attendant 180/220 lbs.
Female flight attendant 160/200 lbs.
Flight crewmember weights were derived from the weights listed on all first and second class medical certificates.

The Coast Guard released a study on passenger weights in March of this year.  USCG is trying to determine reasonable weights for boat and ship pax.  Currently the recommended weight is 185 lbs. though the official average passenger weight is 160 lbs.

In the technical rescue world, a single climber (i.e. the "patient") is assumed to weigh 176 lbs. (80 kg), a rescue technician 220 lbs. (100 kg) and a fully "encumbered" firefighter 300 lbs. (136 kg).

Mike

[Hawk200]

Guess I'm a little behind. Thanks for the info, it will come in handy.

Come to think of it, I'm shooting for the observer qual. Does the observer do any weight/ balance, or is that left primarily to the pilot?

[ColonelJack]

Glad I earned my observer wings back before I got ... vertically challenged.  I doubt they'd even let me near an aircraft these days.

Jack

[davedove]

Fortunately, the PFD's were blue, so they didn't clash with the Mess Dress...

I know there's a story there...   

I don't know about his story, but I have heard there were a couple of officers who flew in mess dress, just to do it.  After all, the regs only say a CAP uniform has to be worn.

[davedove]

The golf shirt is indeed really popular. And it has resulted in a brand new attitude toward CAP.

I was out an an airport with my Observer trainee, each of us in the blue field uniform.  We were passed by an airport flight instructor who said "Oh, you're Civil Air Patrol.  I had no idea you guys had ranks!"

He knew what CAP was.  He just had no clue were were at all military, as he'd only seen golf-shirted members.

I would be a lot happier with the golf shirt if it was mandatory to have you name and grade embroidered on it.

In some situations the lack of grade is a benefit.  If you have the situation where a person with lower grade in manning a higher ranked position, then people can focus on the position instead of the grade.

[ColonelJack]

I don't know about his story, but I have heard there were a couple of officers who flew in mess dress, just to do it.  After all, the regs only say a CAP uniform has to be worn.

And if they'd gone down, that would've been a real ... no, even I won't go that low just for a laugh.

Jack

[LTC_Gadget]

Not to take the current thread drift off-track, but in case anyone's interested, there's a new notice of a navy blue flight suit on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180121803142&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1

I think it's a 44Long..

Now, back to your current track...

V/R,