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Live2Learn
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« on: December 21, 2015, 10:31:42 PM »

More and more businesses, universities, and schools are doing 'active shooter' training.  Would this be a good safety meeting topic, and maybe even practical exercise?  The link below is an one example of many training videos posted on youtube.
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPG8D434FM0

The Washington Post recently published a pretty good article on the topic in response to the San Bernardino terrorist attack.   If all works correctly, I've attached the article to this post.

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Holding Pattern
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« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2015, 10:46:12 PM »

Unfortunately this is a subject that is too polarizing to rationally discuss. I'd be worried about losing members if I did so.

I'd leave this safety brief to those that wish to review the FEMA courses on such along with those that are brought in to gun-free zones to explain what to do.
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Cadetter
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2015, 10:51:30 PM »

It's been a safety topic in my squadron and was accepted well.
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Spam
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2015, 11:46:29 PM »

My safety officer put on a brief on this topic this month (actually, on the evening of the San Bernadino shooting, by chance).

It was well received by cadets and officers, and was not divisive or polarizing in any way (*I should point out that I have probably five or six major faiths represented in my unit, including muslim cadets), as it was presented in terms of awareness, preparation, and response using federal guidelines and training material.

Note for improvement, one of the findings was that we need to analyze and come up with an evac/escape plan... our existing fire drill plan would not work, and the suggestion to have everyone run to the fenced in area wouldn't fly either (what, am I the ONLY guy in the unit who watches "The Walking Dead")?

V/R
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kirbahashi
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2015, 07:50:46 AM »

Unfortunately this is a subject that is too polarizing to rationally discuss.

No offense, the steps you should take in an active shooter are not polarizing.  What will be polarizing is what caused the active shooter in the first place.  As a parent of a CAP cadet I would be thankful their unit is at least thinking about this. 

To your original comment, make yourself familiar with the suggested course of action as given by professionals.  The resources are out there, and I won't turn this thread into a an active shooter response training platform.  There are other experts here who can do that.  If you want further info, PM me.

http://pittsburghpa.gov/ema/active-shooter-info
http://www.dhs.gov/active-shooter-preparedness

I would encourage any unit that meets in a public space, even if entry is controlled (e.g. military base) should plan, discuss, and train to an active shooter situation.  It is unfortunate that we have to think like this, but that is where we are.  I have done this as a squadron commander.  I have used the FEMA video which is pretty good.  Contact local sheriff or police departments and find out if they provide training as they could be a good resource.

Think of it like a fire escape plan.  One of those things you "should" have on file, test once a year, but pray you never have to use.
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2015, 07:17:11 PM »

FWIW, a former Squadron Commander lost his wife to an armed attack on an air force base a little over 20 years ago.  The loss of his wife haunts him to this day.  His story, plus the many  events since then in schools, hospitals, theaters, and yes, military bases motivated me to make the initial post on this thread.  Whether perpetrated by a 'lone wolf' or a team of terrorists it seems prudent to think of it ahead of time and be mentally prepared to escape or hide if able, or mount an aggressive defense if you must. 
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Spam
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2015, 07:35:04 PM »

I was at NAVAIR in Jefferson Plaza, Crystal City VA (Washington DC) in 1995 when a disgruntled PMA-209 employee rode the elevator up with us, then drew and went off. We went on lockdown. The Navy did a good job taking care of the victims, who all lived.

Very good idea to do this, Live2Learn. This might be one of the best topics to get a "real" NHQ safety brief together on...

V/R,
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A.Member
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2015, 07:46:16 PM »

Unfortunately this is a subject that is too polarizing to rationally discuss. I'd be worried about losing members if I did so.

I'd leave this safety brief to those that wish to review the FEMA courses on such along with those that are brought in to gun-free zones to explain what to do.
Huh?!  What exactly is polarizing about it?  It's a real and relevant topic for today; not one to be shied away from.

That said, it's also a topic probably best addressed by actual experts as opposed to the average member that spent the night in a Holiday Inn Express.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 07:49:48 PM by A.Member » Logged
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Holding Pattern
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2015, 08:04:00 PM »

Unfortunately this is a subject that is too polarizing to rationally discuss. I'd be worried about losing members if I did so.

I'd leave this safety brief to those that wish to review the FEMA courses on such along with those that are brought in to gun-free zones to explain what to do.
Huh?!  What exactly is polarizing about it?  It's a real and relevant topic for today; not one to be shied away from.

That said, it's also a topic probably best addressed by actual experts as opposed to the average member that spent the night in a Holiday Inn Express.

A combination of things, including finding out if for example the conversation might be a trigger for anyone in the squadron who lived through such an event, those that are of the opinion that forcing people to be disarmed is a good idea, and those that think forcing people to be disarmed is a bad idea.

Or consider that it took us a signficant period of time to update active shooter training to include viable combat strategies as part of said training, and note the response:
https://www.google.com/search?q=run+hide+fight&oq=run+hide+f&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.3343j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=run+hide+fight&tbm=nws

Clearly, I'm the minority opinion on captalk that CAP isn't the best venue for training people on this sort of thing. I'll bow out of this conversation and let you all continue.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 08:07:13 PM by Starfleet Auxiliary » Logged
THRAWN
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2015, 08:09:38 PM »

It is taught in schools. Its the new duck and cover. It is much more useful then the tsunami briefing...
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Strup
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Chappie
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2015, 08:47:48 PM »

Unfortunately this is a subject that is too polarizing to rationally discuss. I'd be worried about losing members if I did so.

I'd leave this safety brief to those that wish to review the FEMA courses on such along with those that are brought in to gun-free zones to explain what to do.

The 2013 PCR Chaplain Corps Region Staff College included an Active Shooter session conducted by a CDI who was a LEO.   Outstanding session...received high marks from the students in the final evaluation of the CCRSC.
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2015, 01:40:16 AM »


A combination of things, including finding out if for example the conversation might be a trigger for anyone in the squadron who lived through such an event, those that are of the opinion that forcing people to be disarmed is a good idea, and those that think forcing people to be disarmed is a bad idea.

Or consider that it took us a signficant period of time to update active shooter training to include viable combat strategies as part of said training, and note the response:
https://www.google.com/search?q=run+hide+fight&oq=run+hide+f&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.3343j0j7&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=93&ie=UTF-8#q=run+hide+fight&tbm=nws


Good points re: potential conversation on viewpoints of defense vs escape, as well as the potential for triggering PTSD from a past event.  That's good stuff to think about.  However, among the objections mentioned in the Google search link was the statement that "some people freeze" when faced with a dangerous, stressful situation.  That is absolutely true.  I question whether the inability of some individuals to processes information and respond appropriately is a sound objection to presenting information on what history and current events tell us is an important topic.  We do not hesitate to discuss winter survival, CPR/AED/1st Aid, boating safety, and other life threatening topics with lay personnel researching and presenting information gleaned from expert sources.  How is this topic fundamentally different? 

Please do not recuse from the discussion.  You have valuable insights to offer.. 
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THRAWN
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2015, 07:53:40 AM »

The best way to handle this is to find out what your host facility has in place as far as policy and then request a brief from them or LE. Done. No polarizing topics. Like uniforms....
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Strup
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2015, 08:24:36 AM »

I used to teach active shooter and Ive done a number of talks with groups about it.  Never with CAP.  As far as it becoming polarizing.... its the instructors fault if it becomes polarizing but then there are times when your audience is pre-disposed to the politics of it.  Allowing politics, discussions about gun control, etc can derail the topic faster than a uniform thread.  Its absolutely imperative that the instructor set out from the beginning that we are here to discuss tactics and responses.  Politics, debating gun control or even debating "Why" these events even occur is not part of the class. 

Honestly, the most difficult group I had to teach were teachers at a high school in the SF Bay Area.  It was like herding cats to get them from interjecting their own "opinions" into how active shooters should be handled and nearly impossible to keep a political question out of EVERYTHING!  There biggest hurdle they could not wrap their minds around was that when cops arrive on scene, they will bypass wounded students and advance towards the threat to stop it, then people will come in behind them and evac/treat the kids/wounded.  But we have to stop the threat first.  Absolutely could not fathom the idea of passing a child.  While their concern for their students was very apparent and commendable they lacked the mindset to process the violent nature of an active shooter.  They were bent on locking down, hiding and even being killed with their students vs allowing kids to run and escape and have a chance.  In one scenario, we had to stop and escort a teacher out who was crying.  The teachers and school district employees were observers and role players along with the schools drama club.   And quite frankly, the scenarios were pretty vanilla.   I had one teacher even comment about how "blood thirsty" the police officers were who were attending the class.  Her thought was the tactic of stopping the threat before treating the wounded was something she could not process.  "You want to kill first and treat wounded after.  I cant accept that as being the right response."   I was amazed at the moral objections a few of them presented to dealing with the active shooter.  They were almost compassionate towards the suspect.  They knew what needed to happen, but they were not wired mentally to understand violence of action. 

So can these discussions become polarizing?  Ohhhhh you bet they can!
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 08:36:34 AM by Flying Pig » Logged
Flying Pig
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2015, 10:16:36 AM »

Ive told my kids to never let anyone lock you down.  Run and if necessary... fight if you get cornered.  But most importantly, run and evac the area and take people with you.  Studying active shooter incidents, I dont know that any of them involved the shooter chasing people.  Most walked calmly and systematically shooting victims they either trapped or victims they found hiding.  Of course if you get cornered or are actually trapped by the structure then Im not saying hiding isnt a viable option, but it shouldn't be the first option.  Situational awareness and balancing your options is an ever changing dynamic in something like this. 
Ive been in one active shooter incident in my life.  I was on a domestic violence call and the husband was alive inside shooting.  We chose to go on the offensive and enter a bedroom window.  Aggressing the target forced the suspect to make a decision to kill himself as we made our way down the hallway.  Sadly his wife was already dead but his kids were alive standing in the living room.  Nobody knows what his intentions were with his kids.  I like to think that they are alive today because of the decision my partner and I made to advance and put a predator on defense.  Active shooters are cowards in the truest sense of the word and in studying their plans (or lack of) you will find most had no plan to escape.  Evidence shows they had only planned to go as far as they could as fast as they could. When confronted, they ended it themselves.  Not all, but most.  Im in a unique position that I get to carry a gun pretty much everywhere and anywhere I go.  I realize people don't always have that option. 
Anyway.... thats my take on the matter. 
« Last Edit: December 23, 2015, 10:23:10 AM by Flying Pig » Logged
TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #15 on: December 23, 2015, 11:40:15 AM »

Politics, debating gun control or even debating "Why" these events even occur is not part of the class. 

Highly agree.

It's about teaching what to do in that situation, not how to mitigate future occurrences through cultural or political change. When it does happen, you don't have a choice. You're now part of it. Now what do you do? You don't know because someone thought it was a polarizing subject insensitive to cadets.

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Lobo de Plata
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« Reply #16 on: December 23, 2015, 07:41:08 PM »

As an LEO who does active shooter training and as our squadron's safety officer, I think it is a relevant subject for both seniors and cadets but has to be handled very carefully. For example, the current run-hide-fight thinking is ok until you get to the fight part. Fighting in lieu of getting gunned down is logical but it raises questions such as; fight how (technique), fight with what, what about my pocket knife, should I carry a gun, etc. The gun part is probably the most common question. There is also the liability issue of a professional giving advice to a mixed audience. I'll leave that for you to think about.
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Ned
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« Reply #17 on: December 23, 2015, 08:11:16 PM »

There is also the liability issue of a professional giving advice to a mixed audience. I'll leave that for you to think about.

I'm not seeing a significant liability issue.  Professionals give advice to CAP "mixed audiences" all the time.  Firefighters talk to cadets and seniors about fire safety.  Medical people teach First Aid and give advice about heat injury prevention.  LEOs tell cadets not to do drugs.  Chaplains advise cadets to lead moral and upright lives.

And here any sort of training concerning what to do in a literal "life and death" situation that is designed and intended to save lives in extreme situations seems like a "low risk", liability-wise.

Ned Lee
Former Legal Officer

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abdsp51
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« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2015, 10:33:55 PM »

As an LEO who does active shooter training and as our squadron's safety officer, I think it is a relevant subject for both seniors and cadets but has to be handled very carefully. For example, the current run-hide-fight thinking is ok until you get to the fight part. Fighting in lieu of getting gunned down is logical but it raises questions such as; fight how (technique), fight with what, what about my pocket knife, should I carry a gun, etc. The gun part is probably the most common question. There is also the liability issue of a professional giving advice to a mixed audience. I'll leave that for you to think about.

Concur.  I was asked a question after Sandy Hook about whether or not teachers should be armed or not.  My answer was the same as having airline pilots have a gun in the cockpit.  Once you pull it you commit to the action of use.  That in and of itself is something that someone has to prep for and just can't be thrust into it. 

In Az, unless I was on base, at a CAP event or in a location that legally prohibited carry I carried my sidearm everywhere.  It's funny that in the wake of all the active shooters that occur the folks on capitol hill start screaming for more gun control.  IMNHO that if you had more people carrying concealed and doing so legally you can reduce the likely hood of mass casualties.  The incident in Tucson and a few other places across the nation have reflected that casualties would have been higher had a private person legally carrying concealed not acted.

And if you look back at most of the active shooter incidents they have all happened primarily at a gun free zone area.
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PHall
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« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2015, 10:46:54 PM »

And if you look back at most of the active shooter incidents they have all happened primarily at a gun free zone area.

All active shooters are not stupid. Their tactics constantly evolve and so must ours.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2015, 11:00:56 PM »

And if you look back at most of the active shooter incidents they have all happened primarily at a gun free zone area.

All active shooters are not stupid. Their tactics constantly evolve and so must ours.

No one implied that the people who conduct said acts were/are.  They get their high casualty rate due to the imposed so-called safe zones. One thing that governments from the city all the way up to DC need to look at it is their so called "safe zones, gun free zones" are a major contributing factor in the high casualty rates.  When you create these so called "safe zones" and try to impose more stringent gun-control laws this is exactly what you get.  You get prime hunting grounds for people to inflict mass damage and injury upon the populace. 
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2015, 02:06:50 AM »

...They get their high casualty rate due to the imposed so-called safe zones...

The politics and issues of gun control is relevant in a broader 2nd amendment and 'hard vs soft target' discussion, But not to the discussion at hand.  I suggest we refocus to the original question of how, and whether to discuss active shooters in the world withn which we live, rather than the world that we might prefer.  This is not a debate about the 2nd Amendment.  Cadets cannot legally carry a concealed firearm. It's not to this forum to decide whether or not teachers, janitors, or CEO's work with a weapon on their person. I suggest those of us who have a strong opinion on 2nd Amendment issues participate personally and directly in the electoral process, and of course VOTE.

In many, if not most active shooter events potential victims will not have guns.  In previous events armed defenders showed up after untrained and unprepared vitims were killed execution style.  However, in some instances where intended targets refused to become victims the result was fewer deaths and fewer injuries.  For example, a recent attack in Washington was foiled when one person seized the iniative and tackled the shooter.  Of course, we are all aware of the four Americans who took down a jihadist on the French train about a year ago.

For those who have done training as either students or instructors, how did you structure it?  How much time did you devote?  Did you use an entire meeting?  Part of a meeting?  Did you do the training as part of a weekend event?  Was it in your regular meeting place?  Was it lecture?  Did you use role playing, simulations, or other means to offer participants some sense of what they might do to escape, what should be considered if they attempt to hide, and both WHEN and HOW to fight? 

Some people in CAP have personally experinced an active shooter event.  How did you identify them?  What did you do to effectively mitigate any adverse reactions to thir past trauma when you planned, prepared, and then carried out the training?

We have a wealth of experience in CAP.  Please share it.  PM me.  I would be delighted to speak with you about yur experience as an instructor, training participant, or one who has been touched by the evil actions of an active shooter attack.
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umpirecali
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« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2015, 02:45:59 AM »

As our squadron's safety officer I have been contemplating having this as a topic. We have several LEOs in our squadron who could facilitate this discussion.  In addition to presenting this as a topic one night, I would like to draft a written plan.  Our meeting space comprises of two floors and and we often have most seniors and most cadets in separate locations.  Given the chaos of the an unknown situation, it would helpful for the senior leadership to know the plan.  The time of the event is not the time to start contemplating "what do we do" and "where do we go". 
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abdsp51
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« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2015, 03:13:47 AM »


The politics and issues of gun control is relevant in a broader 2nd amendment and 'hard vs soft target' discussion, But not to the discussion at hand.  I suggest we refocus to the original question of how, and whether to discuss active shooters in the world withn which we live, rather than the world that we might prefer.  This is not a debate about the 2nd Amendment.  Cadets cannot legally carry a concealed firearm. It's not to this forum to decide whether or not teachers, janitors, or CEO's work with a weapon on their person. I suggest those of us who have a strong opinion on 2nd Amendment issues participate personally and directly in the electoral process, and of course VOTE.


Sorry but the politics involved correlate and are a major contributing factor to these incidents as they all have occurred in gun free and supposed safe zones and are totally relevant to this topic.  EVERY TIME one of these incidents happen there is the universal cry for stricter and more gun control laws, when it is a failure by the powers to be to look at everything as a whole.  Sorry but you can't say it's not a 2nd Amendment debate when every time one of these events occur it gets brought up and is attempted to be infringed upon. 

Politicians created these zones that allow the individuals who plan and commit these acts to have a free and open access to plenty of victims and that is a plain as day black and white fact.  The politics behind it are just as much if not the main culprit to blame for these incidents. 
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Spam
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« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2015, 04:46:00 AM »

Cadets cannot legally carry a concealed firearm.

They can in my state, if over 18, open carry or concealed, with a Georgia Weapons Carry License. My unit has had several eligible, actually, though they wouldn't ever violate CAPR 900-3.


'Merica!

(... and Jawjah!)

Cheers
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THRAWN
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« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2015, 10:18:16 AM »

As our squadron's safety officer I have been contemplating having this as a topic. We have several LEOs in our squadron who could facilitate this discussion.  In addition to presenting this as a topic one night, I would like to draft a written plan.  Our meeting space comprises of two floors and and we often have most seniors and most cadets in separate locations.  Given the chaos of the an unknown situation, it would helpful for the senior leadership to know the plan.  The time of the event is not the time to start contemplating "what do we do" and "where do we go".

Where do.you meet? Does your facility have a plan? Talk to your host installation and local LE before you waste time on a plan that doesnt fit with everyone elses...
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Strup
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isuhawkeye
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« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2015, 10:48:07 AM »

I have a roughly 2 hour presentation on the topic that is geared to those who can not or will not carry a firearm.  It starts with situational awareness, then goes into the OODA Loop.  The next section is the Run, Hide, Fight Material, and it ends with hands on first aid skills primarily looking at the application of tourniquets. 

Your position on the "fight" aspect of response is a very personal one, and must be sorted out based on a lot of variables.   

No matter what you decide to do everyone should have an understanding of basic first aid with practical application of tourniquets. 
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2015, 12:14:54 PM »

Kill em all and let God sort em out......  Oh great now it's a religious debate too!!!
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umpirecali
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« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2015, 04:55:39 PM »


The politics and issues of gun control is relevant in a broader 2nd amendment and 'hard vs soft target' discussion, But not to the discussion at hand.  I suggest we refocus to the original question of how, and whether to discuss active shooters in the world withn which we live, rather than the world that we might prefer.  This is not a debate about the 2nd Amendment.  Cadets cannot legally carry a concealed firearm. It's not to this forum to decide whether or not teachers, janitors, or CEO's work with a weapon on their person. I suggest those of us who have a strong opinion on 2nd Amendment issues participate personally and directly in the electoral process, and of course VOTE.


Sorry but the politics involved correlate and are a major contributing factor to these incidents as they all have occurred in gun free and supposed safe zones and are totally relevant to this topic.  EVERY TIME one of these incidents happen there is the universal cry for stricter and more gun control laws, when it is a failure by the powers to be to look at everything as a whole.  Sorry but you can't say it's not a 2nd Amendment debate when every time one of these events occur it gets brought up and is attempted to be infringed upon. 

Politicians created these zones that allow the individuals who plan and commit these acts to have a free and open access to plenty of victims and that is a plain as day black and white fact.  The politics behind it are just as much if not the main culprit to blame for these incidents.

You're missing the point. The topic to discuss for an active shooter program is not how we prevent an active shooter, or how do we change the electorate or even gun culture. you discuss how to survive an active shooter. I agree with you about gun free zones however this does not need to be discussed when talking about what to do if an active shooter situation arises.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2015, 05:36:01 PM »


The politics and issues of gun control is relevant in a broader 2nd amendment and 'hard vs soft target' discussion, But not to the discussion at hand.  I suggest we refocus to the original question of how, and whether to discuss active shooters in the world withn which we live, rather than the world that we might prefer.  This is not a debate about the 2nd Amendment.  Cadets cannot legally carry a concealed firearm. It's not to this forum to decide whether or not teachers, janitors, or CEO's work with a weapon on their person. I suggest those of us who have a strong opinion on 2nd Amendment issues participate personally and directly in the electoral process, and of course VOTE.


Sorry but the politics involved correlate and are a major contributing factor to these incidents as they all have occurred in gun free and supposed safe zones and are totally relevant to this topic.  EVERY TIME one of these incidents happen there is the universal cry for stricter and more gun control laws, when it is a failure by the powers to be to look at everything as a whole.  Sorry but you can't say it's not a 2nd Amendment debate when every time one of these events occur it gets brought up and is attempted to be infringed upon. 

Politicians created these zones that allow the individuals who plan and commit these acts to have a free and open access to plenty of victims and that is a plain as day black and white fact.  The politics behind it are just as much if not the main culprit to blame for these incidents.

You're missing the point. The topic to discuss for an active shooter program is not how we prevent an active shooter, or how do we change the electorate or even gun culture. you discuss how to survive an active shooter. I agree with you about gun free zones however this does not need to be discussed when talking about what to do if an active shooter situation arises.

And the best way to survive an active shooter is to not be placed in that scenario, same as anything else you have to survive. 
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Garibaldi
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« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2015, 05:59:01 PM »


And the best way to survive an active shooter is to not be placed in that scenario, same as anything else you have to survive.


So....you're suggesting what exactly? Avoid public places? Stop going to the office? Stay at home and hide? Your solution makes absolutely no sense at all.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2015, 06:03:00 PM »

And hence the reason why some people are reluctant to talk about this at a CAP meeting.

It was suggested that you can talk about "How to survive" without talking about the politics.  But even here on CAPTALK we can't do that.   Even among a bunch of us who all agree that as a safety topic it is something we could talk about.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
abdsp51
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« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2015, 06:45:57 PM »


And the best way to survive an active shooter is to not be placed in that scenario, same as anything else you have to survive.


So....you're suggesting what exactly? Avoid public places? Stop going to the office? Stay at home and hide? Your solution makes absolutely no sense at all.

It makes perfect sense.  You don't want to be in one you don't place yourself into that dynamic.  If I know I stand a chance of being robbed, carjacked, assaulted, etc. I avoid the areas it can happen I and I avoid areas where I am at a greater chance of being a victim.

You want to survive being in this situation you avoid the areas and circumstances where it can happen. 
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umpirecali
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« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2015, 08:17:49 PM »


And the best way to survive an active shooter is to not be placed in that scenario, same as anything else you have to survive.


So....you're suggesting what exactly? Avoid public places? Stop going to the office? Stay at home and hide? Your solution makes absolutely no sense at all.

It makes perfect sense.  You don't want to be in one you don't place yourself into that dynamic.  If I know I stand a chance of being robbed, carjacked, assaulted, etc. I avoid the areas it can happen I and I avoid areas where I am at a greater chance of being a victim.

You want to survive being in this situation you avoid the areas and circumstances where it can happen.

Then you plan resign from CAP since the regs say no guns and we spend most of our time in airports where guns are prohibited.  Outside of CAP I concealed carry everywhere I can legally go, because "the areas and circumstances where it can happen" are the planet earth.  To be sure, there are areas where my situational awareness is more hightened, but you are never out of danger... just ask those poor folks at a bible study in SC. 

with that said.  NONE OF THAT has anything to do with teaching a group of cadet and seniors what to do if an active shooter enters our building. 
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Capt Chris Cali, CAP
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« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2015, 08:44:44 PM »


And the best way to survive an active shooter is to not be placed in that scenario, same as anything else you have to survive.


So....you're suggesting what exactly? Avoid public places? Stop going to the office? Stay at home and hide? Your solution makes absolutely no sense at all.

It makes perfect sense.  You don't want to be in one you don't place yourself into that dynamic.  If I know I stand a chance of being robbed, carjacked, assaulted, etc. I avoid the areas it can happen I and I avoid areas where I am at a greater chance of being a victim.

You want to survive being in this situation you avoid the areas and circumstances where it can happen.

Again, I say....malls, school, the office, the grocery store, the gas station, CAP meetings and activities. Need I continue to point out how asinine that attitude is?

Go hide your head in the sand if you want; I'll live my life outside.
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You can't take the sky from me. Also, I can kill you with my brain. No power in the 'verse can stop me.
abdsp51
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« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2015, 08:51:02 PM »

Then you plan resign from CAP since the regs say no guns and we spend most of our time in airports where guns are prohibited.  Outside of CAP I concealed carry everywhere I can legally go, because "the areas and circumstances where it can happen" are the planet earth.  To be sure, there are areas where my situational awareness is more hightened, but you are never out of danger... just ask those poor folks at a bible study in SC. 

with that said.  NONE OF THAT has anything to do with teaching a group of cadet and seniors what to do if an active shooter enters our building.

Nothing of the sort.  But I can tell you that if that type of incident occurs at a CAP event, that prohibition is a contributing factor.  And hate to break it to you buddy but guns are not prohibited in airports.  And if an active shooter ever enters your building then you and the rest of the senior members failed in knowing who belongs there and providing adequate security measures. 

You want to teach to survive a little power point or wanna be youtube video isn't going to cut it.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2015, 08:52:23 PM »


And the best way to survive an active shooter is to not be placed in that scenario, same as anything else you have to survive.


So....you're suggesting what exactly? Avoid public places? Stop going to the office? Stay at home and hide? Your solution makes absolutely no sense at all.

It makes perfect sense.  You don't want to be in one you don't place yourself into that dynamic.  If I know I stand a chance of being robbed, carjacked, assaulted, etc. I avoid the areas it can happen I and I avoid areas where I am at a greater chance of being a victim.

You want to survive being in this situation you avoid the areas and circumstances where it can happen.

Again, I say....malls, school, the office, the grocery store, the gas station, CAP meetings and activities. Need I continue to point out how asinine that attitude is?

Go hide your head in the sand if you want; I'll live my life outside.

I don't hide my head in the sand. I maintain my SA and I reduce my chances of being a victim.  But this is a typical liberal approach of a sheeple society.
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LSThiker
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« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2015, 10:17:41 PM »


And the best way to survive an active shooter is to not be placed in that scenario, same as anything else you have to survive.


So....you're suggesting what exactly? Avoid public places? Stop going to the office? Stay at home and hide? Your solution makes absolutely no sense at all.

It makes perfect sense.  You don't want to be in one you don't place yourself into that dynamic.  If I know I stand a chance of being robbed, carjacked, assaulted, etc. I avoid the areas it can happen I and I avoid areas where I am at a greater chance of being a victim.

You want to survive being in this situation you avoid the areas and circumstances where it can happen.

Again, I say....malls, school, the office, the grocery store, the gas station, CAP meetings and activities. Need I continue to point out how asinine that attitude is?

Go hide your head in the sand if you want; I'll live my life outside.

I don't hide my head in the sand. I maintain my SA and I reduce my chances of being a victim.  But this is a typical liberal approach of a sheeple society.

For the exact reasons shown on this forum, this is why we cannot get more rationale discussions regarding these events.  For the record, I am not a Republican/conservative, nor am I a Democrat/liberal.  I am a centrist in these types of discussions. 

The most important question to ask ourselves is, would BBDUs, BDUs, or ABUs be more appropriate for an active shooter incident?  Or would it be best to simply wear the Golf Shirt?  :) 
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2015, 10:23:39 PM »

I think wearing the BBDU, ABU, or any of those three-letter combinations will induce the active shooter to kill himself. He probably may not know we are not police, and when he sees us in those uniforms... may think that LEOs have arrived.

Whereas if (s)he sees us in the Corporate, may think we are just run-of-the-mill employees, visitors, or whatevers. And we will pay for the consequences...

 :D
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umpirecali
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« Reply #39 on: December 24, 2015, 10:29:26 PM »

Quote

And hate to break it to you buddy but guns are not prohibited in airports.


They are in my state § 18.2-287.01

https://vacode.org/18.2-287.01/
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Capt Chris Cali, CAP
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umpirecali
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« Reply #40 on: December 24, 2015, 10:38:31 PM »

Quote

Nothing of the sort.  But I can tell you that if that type of incident occurs at a CAP event, that prohibition is a contributing factor. 

I don't disagree with you... but that doesn't mean we have to talk about gun free zones and other political hot topics.  Why is this such a hard topic for you to grasp?



Speaker: "Ok folks we are here today to talk about what to do if God forbid an active shooter comes in our building..."

Red person: "Isn't it true that Obama wants to take away all our guns and..."

Speaker interrupts: "that's not what we are here to talk about tonight..."

Blue person: "but if we pass stricter gun laws..."

Speaker interrupts: "all valid topics for discussion, but not here, tonight we are here to talk about what to do if ..."
« Last Edit: December 24, 2015, 10:42:13 PM by umpirecali » Logged
Capt Chris Cali, CAP
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Spam
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« Reply #41 on: December 24, 2015, 11:13:16 PM »

WELL said.

Let it stop there.


Spam
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arajca
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« Reply #42 on: December 24, 2015, 11:24:47 PM »

Nothing of the sort.  But I can tell you that if that type of incident occurs at a CAP event, that prohibition is a contributing factor.  And hate to break it to you buddy but guns are not prohibited in airports.  And if an active shooter ever enters your building then you and the rest of the senior members failed in knowing who belongs there and providing adequate security measures. 

You want to teach to survive a little power point or wanna be youtube video isn't going to cut it.
You are assuming the seniors have control over the whole building. This is not usually the case. If a unit meets at a school, there probably will be other groups there as well.  Same can be said of a church.

We can control some entrances, but not all.

Do we know who belongs there by name or face? Not if they're not in the unit. If someone unfamiliar walks in, they are intercepted. Most often they're looking for the Boy Scouts, who meet at the same night and time. The Boy Scouts use other entrances than we use. If someone wants to get in, it's not a problem. From what I've read, most active shooters don't come in guns blazing. They get inside, then pull their weapons.

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sarmed1
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« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2015, 05:57:11 PM »

Entry and concealment are easy.  Look like you belong, and no one usually asks you any questions, sometimes not even for ID.  If bags, cases and packs are part of that then all the better.  Most people as a matter of political correctness are not that vigilant.  In a previous assignment (given pre-9/11) it was part of my job to try and get myself and weapons/IED's into places they didn't belong and do other psedu-nefarious things.  This was primarily during exercises when they knew they were supposed to be looking extra hard, we were more often successful than not.  If someone is determined to do one of those types of things, they will.  The best the rest of us can do is be prepared to act when that magic first defense line fails.  Active shooter training is key to any group in any location, and IMHO should be a topic of safety discussion for CAP units.

As a medical professional, it is also important to teach/touch on immediate medical care.  Like flying pig mentioned, LE is going to bypass anyone who isnt a threat especially when shots are still being fired and likely for a good time after that, this includes providing medical care.  It is more likely you will die from injury (blood loss) before medical help will get to you than the initial shooting (less than 40% of GSW type wounds in "combat" type injuries are immediately fatal)  Though the process is slowly changing, most EMS services still won enter a scene, until police declare it safe, ie have found the threat and ensure its ended, including secondary devices or other actors.  In some cases this is upwards of 45-90 minutes; bleeding control (TQ's and pressure dressings) and simple airway control  by your friends and co-workers while you are waiting will be what makes the difference if you made it thru the initial attack....

mk
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Mark Kleibscheidel
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« Reply #44 on: December 26, 2015, 12:42:49 AM »

I think the OP has been adequately given enough feedback. I am also not a fan of the ill-attempted humor over a subject that is a crippling reality in our society right now. For those whose lives have been affected or will be affected by mass violence, it's not funny. Keep that stuff in your PM box.

*lock*
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Lt Col, CAP
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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Active Shooter training as a safety meeting topic
 


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