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SarDragon
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« on: November 30, 2015, 05:59:30 PM »

This is from a discussion I had with a couple of friends about hearing.

Quote from: Buddy A
I know correlation between that and the hearing loss occurring during my years of reserve duty is not causation. But it does seem fairly likely that just being a bozo reservist who has never deployed going on a range once a month or every other month has still managed to have some kind of impact on my hearing. Just saying. It's possible.


Quote from: SarDragon
No, probable. It's insidious, and very gradual. By the time it's really noticeable, it's too late. That's why I preach hearing protection at any opportunity.

Quote from: Buddy A
  I also have no plans to use it to claim "Disabled Veteran" status and the like, but if the Marine Corps were to say "Hey dude, sorry for probably [messing] up your hearing for life, here's a tiny bit of cash" I probably also wouldn't say no to it.  YMMV.

Quote from: SarDragon
Bad move. When it's time, go through the hoops with the VA and get a disability rating. When you leave The Corps, get a full copy of your medical record. It will be useful later in life. BTDT, no shirt.

[eleted irrelevant stuff]

Quote from: SarDragon
If [Army reservist for disability, but has never deployed] has hearing loss, it's more likely that she had her iPod turned up too loud, too long, instead of any time she spent on the range..

Quote from: Buddy A
FWIW, I also rarely wear ear buds or headphones. I essentially never go to concerts (been to about one concert in my life, Michael Bublé... feel free to laugh. Heh.)  I don't operate loud machinery (I don't have a lawn to mow, a snowblower to operate, or whatever). But I'm also not saying that it's impossible things in my civilian life have contributed to or even were the sole source of my tinnitus. *shrug*  After all, how do you find that out?

Quote from: SarDragon
Ask your ENT doctor. He can fill you in on all the various, perhaps unthoughtof,  sources of harmful noise.

Seriously, folks, hearing loss is becoming much more common in younger people these days. When I had my hearing tested two years ago, we chatted about this, and the tech mentioned the number of 25-30 yo folks who had significant hearing loss.

My dad had noise-induced hearing loss in the Navy, and I took that lesson very seriously. He got lip reading classes and hearing aids out of the deal, at age 50, and had the associated problems until he died. I was reluctant to go down the same road. It's not fun.

For you younger folks reading this - protect your hearing. Once it's gone, you can never get it back.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2015, 04:41:43 AM »

Agreed.

But with all the younger folks (I'm guilty at times  :angel:) like to listen to music very loud, either it be in the car or earbuds.
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Garibaldi
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« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2015, 08:57:19 AM »

I was actually thinking of this post this morning on my way to work. I don't like loud music, never really have. That's not to say I didn't listen to it from time to time, but for some reason, I just don't want everyone on the planet to listen to MY music. Even with ear buds, I keep the volume just loud enough to hear.

That being said, I have fired weapons without ear protection. I've been to loud concerts. Even went to a monster truck show. My ears ring constantly because I was "too cool" to put the earphones on or the ear plugs in. I have always had issues with my hearing, due to deformed eardrums at birth. I am slowly going deaf, and a bad ear infection renders me unable to hear, like right now. I can't hear out of my left ear.

I estimate I have about 5 to 10 years left before I'm completely deaf. It doesn't bother me much. I've started to read lips, and I really want to take an ASL class soon. One of my favorite anecdotes was my former commander and a subordinate tried to holler at each other at a busy mission base many years ago, and finally resorted to ASL to communicate.

Kids, if you're reading this, turn the volume down and put in the ear plugs. It sure beats needing a hearing aid down the road.
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MovingOnToOtherThings
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« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2015, 09:08:00 AM »

Sounds like a good topic for an Annual Safety Training program with full demonstration.
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« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2015, 10:39:09 AM »

ABSOLUTELY go to the VA when you get out of the military and get a rating.   I learned the hard way.  I applied for a CBP pilot position but was over the age limit.   Even if I had a 1% VA rating, that rating would have waived the age. Still kicking myself.  I was so worried a VA rating would keep me out of LE when I first got out that I wouldnt do it.  It would have had no bearing at all. 
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SarDragon
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« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2015, 04:01:43 PM »

Agreed.

But with all the younger folks (I'm guilty at times  :angel: ) like to listen to music very loud, either it be in the car or earbuds.

I suggest that they invest now in hearing aid companies, so they can use the dividends to buy hearing aids. Good aids run >$2000 each. Yes, two thousand dollars, each. And they last three to four years.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2015, 02:17:15 PM »

VA does not provide ratings for hearing loss anymore, they will add it to your chart so that you can get hearing aids later if needed though. Since the military started issuing fitted ear plugs back in the early 2000's the VA looks at hearing loss as a problem that you cause yourself and not a service connection with the exception of Field Artillery personnel.
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SARDOC
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« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2015, 04:02:59 PM »

VA does not provide ratings for hearing loss anymore, they will add it to your chart so that you can get hearing aids later if needed though. Since the military started issuing fitted ear plugs back in the early 2000's the VA looks at hearing loss as a problem that you cause yourself and not a service connection with the exception of Field Artillery personnel.

There are still cases where even double hearing protection is still required that you can still suffer from Hearing issues.  I spent 9 years as a HH60H Crewchief and I'm betting my permanent tinnitus is partially due to it.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2015, 06:15:05 PM »

No argument there.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2015, 09:20:15 PM »

VA does not provide ratings for hearing loss anymore, they will add it to your chart so that you can get hearing aids later if needed though. Since the military started issuing fitted ear plugs back in the early 2000's the VA looks at hearing loss as a problem that you cause yourself and not a service connection with the exception of Field Artillery personnel.

There are still cases where even double hearing protection is still required that you can still suffer from Hearing issues.  I spent 9 years as a HH60H Crewchief and I'm betting my permanent tinnitus is partially due to it.

Oh I know, I have pretty bad tinnitus my myself but the VA wont rate it unless its from Field Artillery since they say it is unavoidable in that field. I was an AH64D Crewchief  and spend time on a gun in the door of a UH60 and in the back of CH47 while on DART.
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RogueLeader
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« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2015, 07:43:01 PM »

VA does not provide ratings for hearing loss anymore, they will add it to your chart so that you can get hearing aids later if needed though. Since the military started issuing fitted ear plugs back in the early 2000's the VA looks at hearing loss as a problem that you cause yourself and not a service connection with the exception of Field Artillery personnel.

There are still cases where even double hearing protection is still required that you can still suffer from Hearing issues.  I spent 9 years as a HH60H Crewchief and I'm betting my permanent tinnitus is partially due to it.

Oh I know, I have pretty bad tinnitus my myself but the VA wont rate it unless its from Field Artillery since they say it is unavoidable in that field. I was an AH64D Crewchief  and spend time on a gun in the door of a UH60 and in the back of CH47 while on DART.

That must have changed from 2011 when I got my disability for tinnitus, and I was a Heavy Equipment  Operator.
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« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2015, 12:48:05 AM »

VA does not provide ratings for hearing loss anymore, they will add it to your chart so that you can get hearing aids later if needed though. Since the military started issuing fitted ear plugs back in the early 2000's the VA looks at hearing loss as a problem that you cause yourself and not a service connection with the exception of Field Artillery personnel.

There are still cases where even double hearing protection is still required that you can still suffer from Hearing issues.  I spent 9 years as a HH60H Crewchief and I'm betting my permanent tinnitus is partially due to it.

New technology in terms of HPDs can often be overmatched by new technology producing workplace threats, unless properly tested and considered in terms of a CONOPS and restrictions for everyday tactical usage.

Virtually all of the maintainer positions involved with late generation, high flow turbines are at risk for this, even with passive muffs, plugs, and ANR plugs.  Just for example, ten years ago, we evaluated the high flow areas around the F-22 at 143 dBA scale, and produced the time weighted limit "do not enter at this throttle setting" polar plots.  The max allowable time aft of and level with an F-22 wing at AB was all of five seconds, with a major 8-12 Hz component (the resonant frequency of the human torso, which causes whole body effects and nausea at high amplitudes) and yet I fought with a bull headed ACC chief of maintenance for months because he wanted to send guys under the wing at AB to do panels-open leak checks after an engine install, "just like we do in Eagles" rather than use witness boards. Failure to adjust to new tech...
 
Now, an equally as POTENTIALLY hazardous scenario is unfolding with the F-35B and C variants which, as fielded on carrier and assault carrier decks, will require long Time Weighted Average (TWA) exposures at varying SPLs for deck crews in tight zones during flight quarters; even with risk controls in place, including advanced custom molded ANR HPDs, this is still a huge watch item. (At least, it was when I left my second tour on the program 3 years ago). I'm not saying people are being injured on this program; what I am saying is that exposure is an identified hazard that is being worked, and that you cannot ignore the threat or discount entire classes of injury based on an overarching policy, if that's the case.

If the VA statements are true, for the VA to assume that modern passive and active protection have been waved like a magic blanket over every AFSC/MOS/rating and that hearing damage has magically disappeared is disingenuous at best, and doesn't keep pace with the engineering, nor the tactics development for the new tech as it fields. One size fits all policies never do.

V/R
Spam

PS, Dumpster, I know you're lurking here, you booger. Jump in if I've misstated on the CTF results.


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Spam
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« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2015, 12:56:37 AM »

VA does not provide ratings for hearing loss anymore, they will add it to your chart so that you can get hearing aids later if needed though. Since the military started issuing fitted ear plugs back in the early 2000's the VA looks at hearing loss as a problem that you cause yourself and not a service connection with the exception of Field Artillery personnel.

There are still cases where even double hearing protection is still required that you can still suffer from Hearing issues.  I spent 9 years as a HH60H Crewchief and I'm betting my permanent tinnitus is partially due to it.

Oh I know, I have pretty bad tinnitus my myself but the VA wont rate it unless its from Field Artillery since they say it is unavoidable in that field. I was an AH64D Crewchief  and spend time on a gun in the door of a UH60 and in the back of CH47 while on DART.

jdh,

The answer there unfortunately is documentation and analysis.

You'd first need to document your flight hours in an exposed gunner station, including the type of flight profiles for example that you'd have flown in training/proficiency/actual downed aircraft recovery ops.

Then, you'd need to document the protective equipment issued to you over that time period, and secure the data on its band-specific protection.  That's all open source data, actually, if a bit hard to find.

Then, a good consultant could build you a time weighted average (TWA) profile to document that you'd exceeded the allowable time-weighted exposure levels, and document that that your exposure had likely resulted in band-specific permanent threshold shifts (hearing loss). If that analysis matched your current test result frequency loss, then you've got a smoking gun open/shut case. However, the documentation is usually really tough for most people to establish, unless they have access to prior records through the NCO network or FOIA and know what they're looking for.

V/R
Spam


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jdh
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« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2015, 10:34:20 PM »

VA does not provide ratings for hearing loss anymore, they will add it to your chart so that you can get hearing aids later if needed though. Since the military started issuing fitted ear plugs back in the early 2000's the VA looks at hearing loss as a problem that you cause yourself and not a service connection with the exception of Field Artillery personnel.

There are still cases where even double hearing protection is still required that you can still suffer from Hearing issues.  I spent 9 years as a HH60H Crewchief and I'm betting my permanent tinnitus is partially due to it.

Oh I know, I have pretty bad tinnitus my myself but the VA wont rate it unless its from Field Artillery since they say it is unavoidable in that field. I was an AH64D Crewchief  and spend time on a gun in the door of a UH60 and in the back of CH47 while on DART.

jdh,

The answer there unfortunately is documentation and analysis.

You'd first need to document your flight hours in an exposed gunner station, including the type of flight profiles for example that you'd have flown in training/proficiency/actual downed aircraft recovery ops.

Then, you'd need to document the protective equipment issued to you over that time period, and secure the data on its band-specific protection.  That's all open source data, actually, if a bit hard to find.

Then, a good consultant could build you a time weighted average (TWA) profile to document that you'd exceeded the allowable time-weighted exposure levels, and document that that your exposure had likely resulted in band-specific permanent threshold shifts (hearing loss). If that analysis matched your current test result frequency loss, then you've got a smoking gun open/shut case. However, the documentation is usually really tough for most people to establish, unless they have access to prior records through the NCO network or FOIA and know what they're looking for.

V/R
Spam

It is noted that I have hearing loss due to service with a 0% rating (just so that treatment can be provided if needed later). I have no need to fight for a higher rating on it since I have a 100% total and perm rating resulting from damage to my pituitary during a brain surgery to remove cancer caused by a radiation exposure while on AD.
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TheTravelingAirman
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« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2015, 05:30:28 AM »

So does this mean that being in an AFSC that is restricted to fighter bases (F-16 to be exact), I am expected to have hearing protection available to me at all times? BX parking lot - EP. Commissary - EP. Running for PT and am legally disallowed to have anything in my ears (if near a road) - EP? While that wouldn't surprise me one bit, that's also crazy. F-16 taking off sets off my tinnitus from anywhere on base, not just near the F/L.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2015, 06:01:05 AM »

So does this mean that being in an AFSC that is restricted to fighter bases (F-16 to be exact), I am expected to have hearing protection available to me at all times? BX parking lot - EP. Commissary - EP. Running for PT and am legally disallowed to have anything in my ears (if near a road) - EP? While that wouldn't surprise me one bit, that's also crazy. F-16 taking off sets off my tinnitus from anywhere on base, not just near the F/L.

What's the cause of your tinnitus? Is this documented in your health record? Has a doctor recommended/prescribed hearing protection?

Noise induced hearing loss has two factors - intensity, and duration. Generally, a jet taking off, when heard anywhere besides the flight line, doesn't have enough of both to cause anything more than temporary discomfort for most people.

I have measurable hearing loss myself, primarily due to aging. The last time I had my hearing tested, the tech was amazed at how good my hearing was for my age, especially given my history.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2015, 08:30:54 AM »

The HPD usage I was referring to was for near field work in and around the flight line and/or actually in flight ops. If you're experiencing tinnitus in a far field noise flow, such as around the base in general during flight ops, then you have something else amiss that should take you to get a full assessment ASAP.


Keeping notes on the specific sounds/feelings you experience (and under what conditions... low freq engine runs on the ramp vs broad spectrum AB takeoff runs, etc) would help the diagnosis. The doc would probably rule out vascular and muscular issues, if you don't have any "clicking" or "humming". The sources might be different if you hear low freq or high freq ringng, or if you have ringing and pain in only one ear (e.g. suspect Meniere's disease).


There's no reason at all that someone (of any AFSC) should be forced to wear HPD while jogging around base; there's something else there that you should get checked.


Best wishes, sir,
Spam

PS, just thought of something else... when our team started fitting F-22 maintainers with custom ANR plugs, a number of them were unable to get a working set until it was pointed out to them that they needed to routinely clean and EXTENSIVELY flush ear wax. The human ear naturally secretes wax as a defensive measure against loud noises. Some people just naturally have more ear hair and wax - no offense intended to anyone, my wife calls me a giant hairy ogre personally - and that has been linked before to sensitivity to noises/tinnitus.


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Chica
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« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2016, 09:46:56 AM »

Agreed.

But with all the younger folks (I'm guilty at times  :angel:) like to listen to music very loud, either it be in the car or earbuds.

me too
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etodd
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« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2016, 03:33:02 PM »

Is hearing loss related to bumping back up 6 month old threads.   Slow to hear and slow to read threads? Are they both age related?  >:D
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Live2Learn
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« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2016, 07:09:09 PM »

Is hearing loss related to bumping back up 6 month old threads.   Slow to hear and slow to read threads? Are they both age related?  >:D

yes. 

It's pretty obvious that young CAP members have lotsa time because they're students...
Adult (young) have lotsa time because the're unemployed...
Adult (middle aged) have lotsa time because they have tenure or seniority...
Adult (ready to retire have NO time because they're working on their retirement paper work...
Adults (already retired) have LESS time because they're volunteering, taking care of grand kids, and globe trotting!

Got that?

 ;)
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Chappie
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« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2016, 01:05:10 PM »

Is hearing loss related to bumping back up 6 month old threads.   Slow to hear and slow to read threads? Are they both age related?  >:D

yes. 

It's pretty obvious that young CAP members have lotsa time because they're students...
Adult (young) have lotsa time because the're unemployed...
Adult (middle aged) have lotsa time because they have tenure or seniority...
Adult (ready to retire have NO time because they're working on their retirement paper work...
Adults (already retired) have LESS time because they're volunteering, taking care of grand kids, and globe trotting!


Got that?

 ;)

^^^ Pretty much describes me.  According to my Retirement Countdown app, I have 12 months  20 days, 1 hour and 8 minutes until I move from "the ready to retire" to "already retired" group (my wife will retire 6 months after I pull the pin)....and yep, CAP will continue to be a part of my service; plan to be a docent on the USS Midway because we will be moving to San Diego to be nearer to our two grand-daughters (currently almost 5 and 2 1/2).   Can't wait.
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Trenzalorian
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« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2016, 10:01:48 AM »

As someone with mild/moderate genetic hearing loss, I can testify that at times it really sucks. I have hearing aids, but it's still often very hard being able to hear people, especially in crowded environments.

Please wear your hearing protection. Hearing loss wasn't preventable in my case, but it's preventable in yours.
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stillamarine
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« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2016, 10:26:46 AM »

Is hearing loss related to bumping back up 6 month old threads.   Slow to hear and slow to read threads? Are they both age related?  >:D

yes. 

It's pretty obvious that young CAP members have lotsa time because they're students...
Adult (young) have lotsa time because the're unemployed...
Adult (middle aged) have lotsa time because they have tenure or seniority...
Adult (ready to retire have NO time because they're working on their retirement paper work...
Adults (already retired) have LESS time because they're volunteering, taking care of grand kids, and globe trotting!


Got that?

 ;)

^^^ Pretty much describes me.  According to my Retirement Countdown app, I have 12 months  20 days, 1 hour and 8 minutes until I move from "the ready to retire" to "already retired" group (my wife will retire 6 months after I pull the pin)....and yep, CAP will continue to be a part of my service; plan to be a docent on the USS Midway because we will be moving to San Diego to be nearer to our two grand-daughters (currently almost 5 and 2 1/2).   Can't wait.

12 years 6 months 27 days 15 hours. Not that I'm counting. My wife's minimum retirement date as a federal employee is in the year 2036.....
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

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Live2Learn
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« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2016, 11:25:47 AM »


12 years 6 months 27 days 15 hours. Not that I'm counting. My wife's minimum retirement date as a federal employee is in the year 2036.....

If any consolation, working is actually 'fun' with the proper attitude.  That, and I have it on good authority that while retirement isn't survivable, it's a good ride while it lasts... again depending upon attitude.  :)
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stillamarine
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« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2016, 04:27:21 PM »


12 years 6 months 27 days 15 hours. Not that I'm counting. My wife's minimum retirement date as a federal employee is in the year 2036.....

If any consolation, working is actually 'fun' with the proper attitude.  That, and I have it on good authority that while retirement isn't survivable, it's a good ride while it lasts... again depending upon attitude.  :)

Oh no doubt. Most days I love my job...some not so much. As for really being retired, I don't know if it'll happen but I have my dream retirement job picked out already!
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Tim Gardiner, 1st LT, CAP

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CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Huh?
 


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