Questions about the blue polo shirt uniform combo and senior BDU's

[LSThiker]

In the US Armed Forces, no Cadet/Midshipman (academy or ROTC) or Officer Candidate is warranted a salute by any person, aside from another Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate during training for the purposes of training and leadership development. Likewise, they would never salute an NCO, and an NCO would never salute a Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate.

Cadets/Midshipmen and Officer Candidates are junior to all military personnel.

Saluting aside, in the case of CAP, a Cadet is always junior to all Senior Members, regardless of grade/time-of-service, and duty position/title.

No that is not true.  A cadet can serve as a platoon leader with full responsibility over enlisted personnel in the National Guard and Reserves.  As such a commander can instruct his enlisted personnel to render the same C&C to the cadet as a 2LT.

[Alaric]

[...] (should have been promoted right after Level 1 [...]

Not necessarily. The requirement for duty position promotion to 2d Lt is completion of Level 1 and "6 months as a member."

CAP REGULATION 35-5
Section B
  2-1.B

Also, no promotion is guaranteed by just completing the requirements, the commander is the final arbiter for promotions

[vorteks]

On a different note, while I fully understand that the intent, as stated, behind the text was supposed to say "officers," the current publication does not. And without any supporting regulatory documentation, the published text is the enforceable doctrine until it is revised. This I am a subject matter expert on, as I do this for a living as a regulatory compliance auditor. Regulations are not open to interpretation; that's why they're clear and concise, or supposed to be...

The current policy is to salute all Senior Members. Until it says otherwise, when a new Senior joins our squadron, I expect our cadets to show that person the saluting courtesies described in written text. It doesn't affect me so much since I don't take it personal, but at the same time, I'm not going to be too relaxed on the matter when it comes to other individuals since I expect my cadets to be exceptional representatives of the CAP Core Values, especially Respect, which includes the customs and courtesies defined on-paper (or PDF for that matter).

Regulations are in fact open to interpretation at times.  That is called command discretion. 

If you hold CAPP151 to the T, then you should be saluting senior member NCOs as well as an SM is without grade.  However, this is not appropriate as military tradition holds otherwise (yes there are exceptions such as reporting).  While salutes can be given at any time, SM officers and flight officers are the only CAP SM personnel required to be saluted.

Furthermore (and again),  CAPP151 is not a regulation.

[LSThiker]

In the US Armed Forces, no Cadet/Midshipman (academy or ROTC) or Officer Candidate is warranted a salute by any person, aside from another Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate during training for the purposes of training and leadership development. Likewise, they would never salute an NCO, and an NCO would never salute a Cadet/Midshipman or Officer Candidate.

Cadets/Midshipmen and Officer Candidates are junior to all military personnel.

Saluting aside, in the case of CAP, a Cadet is always junior to all Senior Members, regardless of grade/time-of-service, and duty position/title.

No that is not true.  A cadet can serve as a platoon leader with full responsibility over enlisted personnel in the National Guard and Reserves.  As such a commander can instruct his enlisted personnel to render the same C&C to the cadet as a 2LT.

Just to provide citation for my assertions:

Commanders are encouraged to ensure that cadets are given courtesies and respect normally reserved for officers of the U.S. Army. Their military rank is above that of enlisted personnel, but below that of commissioned or warrant officers.

Emphasis is the regulation

3-3. Military courtesy. Cadets will serve in officer positions. Enlisted personnel will be encouraged to salute cadets and address them as "Sir" or Ma'am" or by their title and surname

Emphasis is the regulation.

[TheSkyHornet]

On a different note, while I fully understand that the intent, as stated, behind the text was supposed to say "officers," the current publication does not. And without any supporting regulatory documentation, the published text is the enforceable doctrine until it is revised. This I am a subject matter expert on, as I do this for a living as a regulatory compliance auditor. Regulations are not open to interpretation; that's why they're clear and concise, or supposed to be...

The current policy is to salute all Senior Members. Until it says otherwise, when a new Senior joins our squadron, I expect our cadets to show that person the saluting courtesies described in written text. It doesn't affect me so much since I don't take it personal, but at the same time, I'm not going to be too relaxed on the matter when it comes to other individuals since I expect my cadets to be exceptional representatives of the CAP Core Values, especially Respect, which includes the customs and courtesies defined on-paper (or PDF for that matter).

Regulations are in fact open to interpretation at times.  That is called command discretion. 

If you hold CAPP151 to the T, then you should be saluting senior member NCOs as well as an SM is without grade.  However, this is not appropriate as military tradition holds otherwise (yes there are exceptions such as reporting).  While salutes can be given at any time, SM officers and flight officers are the only CAP SM personnel required to be saluted.

Furthermore (and again),  CAPP151 is not a regulation.

Then on that technicality, there is no regulation regarding the saluting of officers aside from the requirement not to salute in certain uniforms (i.e., mess) in CAPM 39-1.

CAPR 39-2 and CAPR 35-5 do not identify which CAP personnel warrant a salute. That is described solely in CAPP 151, which is recognized in the Glossary of CAPM 39-1 as a reference document/supporting material.

The only document that exists as the general guide to saluting protocol is CAPP 151, which says to salute all Senior Members. It also says, on the very last page of the pamphlet, that it CAPP 151 provides authoritative guidance regarding Air Force-style customs and courtesies. It obviously has an error, and therefore needs to be revised to reflect accurate intention. That's been made exceptionally clear. So wait for a command directive on the matter, or revision, and move on.

This topic has become extremely derailed to argue about the validity of official CAP publications made available through the official CAP website.

The publication says salute all senior members. So salute all senior members. It's really not a big deal.

[LSThiker]

The publication says salute all senior members. So salute all senior members. It's really not a big deal.

Actually, it does not say salute "all" CAP senior members.  It just states "salute CAP senior members". 

While the publication says "salute Senior Members", the intent, which is just as important, is clear that it meant salute senior member officers and further clarified by Col Lee.  Do not be obtuse about this.


But StormChaser is correct by saying "After some thought, I don't think it's worth having an argument over this."

[Eaker Guy]

I hope what I have to say puts an end to the argument. The letter of CAPP 151 implies that we salute all senior members. Col Lee has said that it is a typo, and that CAPP 151 really implies that we only salute senior member officers. So, although it can be a practice, which I choose to follow, to salute all senior members, we are only required to salute senior member officers. No one is better or worse if they salute all senior members vs. only officers. As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good.

[vorteks]

This topic has become extremely derailed to argue about the validity of official CAP publications made available through the official CAP website.

I'm not arguing the validity of any CAP publications. Among those publications are regulations and pamphlets. The regulations say that "pamphlets are nondirective, informative, 'how-to' type publications that may include suggested methods and techniques for implementing CAP policies." You've been asserting that best practices described in a pamphlet should be carried out to the letter as though they are regulations. On that point you are simply mistaken, sir.

[TheSkyHornet]

As long as we uphold the core value of respect, we're all good.

This.

Like I said, it's really not a big deal. If someone feels that they were warranted a salute based on a commonly-misunderstood regulation, just salute them and be done with it. No need to start arguing with the person about it, especially not in public or in front of any other members. If there's an issue, take it to the side.

The respectful and appropriate thing to do is just get over it and move on. Take it up the chain of command later. If the Deputy Commander for Cadets says "salute all seniors," then that should be the end of it and it's not up for further discussion within the cadet chain of command.

Mr. Veritec, I've already explained my rationale behind this in a previous post. It's about time this discussion comes to a close. The original topic has been addressed as asked.

[Shuman 14]

Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

In the Army Reserve and in "most" State Army National Guards there is a program in which a Senior Army ROTC Cadet is assigned to a USAR or ARNG unit as an Assistant Platoon Leader. The program is called the Simultaneous Membership Program or SMP for short. The  SMP Cadet is suppose to learn practical leadership from the 2LT/1LT who is the actual Platoon Leader.

In some cases, when there is no Platoon Leader assigned, the SMP Cadet gets to run the Platoon all by themselves. SMP Cadets are afforded all courtesies due an Officer, to include salutes from all lower ranking personnel. (I.E. Enlisted, NCOs, WOCs, WOs, and OCS Candidates ranked lower. West Point Cadets were ranked higher then ROTC Cadets.)

While that doesn't really apply to CAP per say, until the advent of the current CAP NCO program, if you were a SMWOG you were an "Officer Candidate". Which to some schools of logic would entitle you certain courtesies like a salute.

Edit after reading posts while typing: LSThiker - I see you are already very familiar with the SMP Program, if my post comes off condescending  to you, that was not my original intent.

[THRAWN]

Jeepers.

Cadets, if it moves, salute it.

[TheSkyHornet]

Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

In the Army Reserve and in "most" State Army National Guards there is a program in which a Senior Army ROTC Cadet is assigned to a USAR or ARNG unit as an Assistant Platoon Leader. The program is called the Simultaneous Membership Program or SMP for short. The  SMP Cadet is suppose to learn practical leadership from the 2LT/1LT who is the actual Platoon Leader.

In some cases, when there is no Platoon Leader assigned, the SMP Cadet gets to run the Platoon all by themselves. SMP Cadets are afforded all courtesies due an Officer, to include salutes from all lower ranking personnel. (I.E. Enlisted, NCOs, WOCs, WOs, and OCS Candidates ranked lower. West Point Cadets were ranked higher then ROTC Cadets.)

While that doesn't really apply to CAP per say, until the advent of the current CAP NCO program, if you were a SMWOG you were an "Officer Candidate". Which to some schools of logic would entitle you certain courtesies like a salute.

The complexity of regulations.... and people wonder why things get so confusing when there isn't a universal "way of doing things" across the board

When I did Army ROTC, none of the SMPs wore their cadet insignia at drill, whether they're supposed to or not. They simply refused to do it.

[THRAWN]

Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

In the Army Reserve and in "most" State Army National Guards there is a program in which a Senior Army ROTC Cadet is assigned to a USAR or ARNG unit as an Assistant Platoon Leader. The program is called the Simultaneous Membership Program or SMP for short. The  SMP Cadet is suppose to learn practical leadership from the 2LT/1LT who is the actual Platoon Leader.

In some cases, when there is no Platoon Leader assigned, the SMP Cadet gets to run the Platoon all by themselves. SMP Cadets are afforded all courtesies due an Officer, to include salutes from all lower ranking personnel. (I.E. Enlisted, NCOs, WOCs, WOs, and OCS Candidates ranked lower. West Point Cadets were ranked higher then ROTC Cadets.)

While that doesn't really apply to CAP per say, until the advent of the current CAP NCO program, if you were a SMWOG you were an "Officer Candidate". Which to some schools of logic would entitle you certain courtesies like a salute.

The complexity of regulations.... and people wonder why things get so confusing when there isn't a universal "way of doing things" across the board

When I did Army ROTC, none of the SMPs wore their cadet insignia at drill, whether they're supposed to or not. They simply refused to do it.

Refused? Good luck with that very short career in the Army.

[TheSkyHornet]

Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

In the Army Reserve and in "most" State Army National Guards there is a program in which a Senior Army ROTC Cadet is assigned to a USAR or ARNG unit as an Assistant Platoon Leader. The program is called the Simultaneous Membership Program or SMP for short. The  SMP Cadet is suppose to learn practical leadership from the 2LT/1LT who is the actual Platoon Leader.

In some cases, when there is no Platoon Leader assigned, the SMP Cadet gets to run the Platoon all by themselves. SMP Cadets are afforded all courtesies due an Officer, to include salutes from all lower ranking personnel. (I.E. Enlisted, NCOs, WOCs, WOs, and OCS Candidates ranked lower. West Point Cadets were ranked higher then ROTC Cadets.)

While that doesn't really apply to CAP per say, until the advent of the current CAP NCO program, if you were a SMWOG you were an "Officer Candidate". Which to some schools of logic would entitle you certain courtesies like a salute.

The complexity of regulations.... and people wonder why things get so confusing when there isn't a universal "way of doing things" across the board

When I did Army ROTC, none of the SMPs wore their cadet insignia at drill, whether they're supposed to or not. They simply refused to do it.

Refused? Good luck with that very short career in the Army.

Hardly.

Most SMP ROTC cadets don't wear their cadet insignia at their unit. They were their grade insignia.
We had a SSG (E-6) who said he dared not put on a black dot (C/2LT).

Good luck with the guys in your unit when the squad leader shows up wearing dots and diamonds, or sharp-angled chevrons and flat rockers

[LSThiker]

Edit after reading posts while typing: LSThiker - I see you are already very familiar with the SMP Program, if my post comes off condescending  to you, that was not my original intent.

Quite familiar.  A number of my friends were SMP

Most SMP ROTC cadets don't wear their cadet insignia at their unit. They were their grade insignia.
We had a SSG (E-6) who said he dared not put on a black dot (C/2LT).

Good luck with the guys in your unit when the squad leader shows up wearing dots and diamonds, or sharp-angled chevrons and flat rockers

No.  Most SMP cadets wear the dot because they are required to.  If they are not wearing it, then their commander or 1SG should have put a stop to it immediately.  Whether they "like" it or not does not matter. 

If an SMP cadet shows up as a squad leader, then they are already in the wrong.  SMP cadets are to serve in officer positions.  SL is an enlisted position.  What would look worse than an E-6 serving as a PL when your PSG is an E-7? 

At no time is an ROTC cadet to wear the diamonds or flat chevrons except while participating in ROTC.  If they are outside of the realm of ROTC, they are to wear a single black pip, even if they are a first year cadet. 

Edit--What those soldiers may have been are non-contracted reservists that are participating in ROTC.  Then they are not SMP.  They are reservists participating in ROTC.  However, they are not required to wear the pip until they officially contract as an SMP.

[THRAWN]

Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

In the Army Reserve and in "most" State Army National Guards there is a program in which a Senior Army ROTC Cadet is assigned to a USAR or ARNG unit as an Assistant Platoon Leader. The program is called the Simultaneous Membership Program or SMP for short. The  SMP Cadet is suppose to learn practical leadership from the 2LT/1LT who is the actual Platoon Leader.

In some cases, when there is no Platoon Leader assigned, the SMP Cadet gets to run the Platoon all by themselves. SMP Cadets are afforded all courtesies due an Officer, to include salutes from all lower ranking personnel. (I.E. Enlisted, NCOs, WOCs, WOs, and OCS Candidates ranked lower. West Point Cadets were ranked higher then ROTC Cadets.)

While that doesn't really apply to CAP per say, until the advent of the current CAP NCO program, if you were a SMWOG you were an "Officer Candidate". Which to some schools of logic would entitle you certain courtesies like a salute.

The complexity of regulations.... and people wonder why things get so confusing when there isn't a universal "way of doing things" across the board

When I did Army ROTC, none of the SMPs wore their cadet insignia at drill, whether they're supposed to or not. They simply refused to do it.

Refused? Good luck with that very short career in the Army.

Hardly.

Most SMP ROTC cadets don't wear their cadet insignia at their unit. They were their grade insignia.
We had a SSG (E-6) who said he dared not put on a black dot (C/2LT).

Good luck with the guys in your unit when the squad leader shows up wearing dots and diamonds, or sharp-angled chevrons and flat rockers

The soldiers in my unit would treat the newly assigned PL with the respect due his assignment because they're professionals. If "most" SMP cadets aren't wearing their unis correctly, then it needs to be addressed to make them professionals as well.

[TheSkyHornet]

Edit after reading posts while typing: LSThiker - I see you are already very familiar with the SMP Program, if my post comes off condescending  to you, that was not my original intent.

Quite familiar.  A number of my friends were SMP

Most SMP ROTC cadets don't wear their cadet insignia at their unit. They were their grade insignia.
We had a SSG (E-6) who said he dared not put on a black dot (C/2LT).

Good luck with the guys in your unit when the squad leader shows up wearing dots and diamonds, or sharp-angled chevrons and flat rockers

No.  Most SMP cadets wear the dot because they are required to.  If they are not wearing it, then their commander or 1SG should have put a stop to it immediately.  Whether they "like" it or not does not matter. 

If an SMP cadet shows up as a squad leader, then they are already in the wrong.  SMP cadets are to serve in officer positions.  SL is an enlisted position.  What would look worse than an E-6 serving as a PL when your PSG is an E-7? 

At no time is an ROTC cadet to wear the diamonds or flat chevrons except while participating in ROTC.  If they are outside of the realm of ROTC, they are to wear a single black pip, even if they are a first year cadet.

I stand corrected on the SMP/SL designation. I wasn't aware of the difference.

Most of our cadets who were enlisted were 88M (I recall four) or 13B/F (I believe two, one each). I think we had one 15T and one 15U. None of them wore their cadet insignia when they were at drill for Ohio Guard or Reserve. In fact, they would sit in the cadet lounge and talk about how they refused to wear their insignia out of the program. Sometimes, they would forget to remove their SPC and SGT patches when they showed up for Leadership Lab, and they'd swap out just before falling in. A lot of them, both guys and gals, would take off their school patch when they went to drill because they would get ridiculed for wearing a combat patch "they didn't earn," even though ROTC right-sleeve unit insignia aren't combat patches. I had a few encounters myself on campus from some of the Army veterans, especially the ones that had deployed previously.

There's what's on paper and SOP, an then there's what people actually do. Enforceable? Yes. But only if leadership at the unit actually carries out enforcement.

Not saying I agree with the ones that don't follow protocol, but it's not my call to make really.

[Shuman 14]

Edit--What those soldiers may have been are non-contracted reservists that are participating in ROTC.  Then they are not SMP.  They are reservists participating in ROTC.  However, they are not required to wear the pip until they officially contract as an SMP.

As a former SMP Cadet... and a former commander with SMP Cadets assigned... and as a former adjunct instructor to a ROTC program I tell you are 100% correct.

A single Pip is the only authorized rank insignia for an SMP Cadet. While at their Guard or Reserve unit they will wear their assigned unit's SSI and any SSI-FWTS they are authorized and when on campus they will wear the Cadet Command SSI and school SSI for uniformity purposes.

I know of States that allow non-contracted Cadets in their ARNG to wear Pips as a "Pre-SMP Cadet" but that is not common and only authorized by those States in Title 32 status.

[lordmonar]

No distinction is made between Senior member Officers and NCO's.

CAPP-151, Respect on Display, page 5, first sentence under 'Key Principle.'     

" When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior members, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

Emphasis mine.

(I may have screwed up the quote tags)


Thanks for that.  It looks like a typo to me, which we will fix.  Our intent was to have the sentence read "When outdoors and in uniform, cadets salute military officers, CAP senior member officers, and cadet officers higher in rank than themselves."

I've already added it to the "fix this at the next revision file."

Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Manager

Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

Because we have Senior Members who are officers (cadets salute)
We have senior members who have no grade (no salute required)
And we have senior member who are NCOs (no salute required).

151 was badly written by someone who did not think about the SMWOG or the NCOs....so he/she said "Senior Members" when he/she really meant "Senior Member Officers".

It is not rocket science.....one would not salute an Active Duty NCO...so why would they salute a CAP NCO?  One would not salute an AD officer candidate (ROTC Cadet, OCS, Academy Cadet, Etc) so why would we salute a CAP officer candidate?

[lordmonar]

Col Lee,

I'm just curious, why the distinction between CAP Senior Member Officers and CAP Senior Members? I don't see why we have to split hairs. A senior member is a senior member. Why do we only have to salute CAP senior member officers?

V/R,

C/Maj Kiss

For the same reason why C/Amn do not salute C/CMSgt.  Officers are saluted, NCOs (and SMWOG) are not.

Hmmm. I still don't understand why cadets wouldn't have to SMWOGs.

Because they are not an officer yet.  At best, they are an "officer-in-training".  While there are exceptions, military cadets are not typically saluted by enlisted as they are not officers.

Fixed that for you.   Cadets and officer candidates are NEVER saluted by AD/RES/NG enlisted personnel.  Because they are not officers.