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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Shuttle Run Moratorium
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SarDragon
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« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2015, 02:20:58 AM »

Walking a mile in 10 min is a bit of a stretch. That's my steady running pace - 6 mph. I can do 4 miles in about an hour at a steady walk, and I'm more fit than the problem cadets we're talking about.

The Olympic race walkers go faster than 8-9 mph, to give more perspective.
Concur that a 10-min mile pace would be a very aggressive walk.  That said, FWIW, the youth U.S. 1500m (just under a mile - .93) race walk record for 9 -10 year old girls is 7:30, boys is 7:13.  For 11 -12 yr olds it's 6:44 and 6:53, boys and girls respectively.

The operative word here is record. The kids we are worried about can't walk nearly this fast.
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Dave Bowles
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A.Member
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« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2015, 02:28:34 AM »

Walking a mile in 10 min is a bit of a stretch. That's my steady running pace - 6 mph. I can do 4 miles in about an hour at a steady walk, and I'm more fit than the problem cadets we're talking about.

The Olympic race walkers go faster than 8-9 mph, to give more perspective.
Concur that a 10-min mile pace would be a very aggressive walk.  That said, FWIW, the youth U.S. 1500m (just under a mile - .93) race walk record for 9 -10 year old girls is 7:30, boys is 7:13.  For 11 -12 yr olds it's 6:44 and 6:53, boys and girls respectively.

The operative word here is record. The kids we are worried about can't walk nearly this fast.
Again, I agree.  I was merely pointing out that kids younger than our cadets have proven they're more than capable of walking at paces at or significantly faster than 10min mile.  It's pretty amazing (and kind of depressing...um, I mean inspiring ;) ) to see some young kids capable of walking at about my 1 mile run pace!  Anyway, this discussion is truly an aside.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 02:33:40 AM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Tim Day
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Virginia Wing Civil Air Patrol
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2015, 08:26:09 AM »

Plus one for DWB's re-focus on the mission of the fitness component of the Cadet Program: "to develop in cadets a habit of regular exercise". Start at the mission, develop the program from there.

This will be a great opportunity for us to model the organizational change in a volunteer organization concepts we teach in our Phase IV leadership curriculum! I recommend we roll out discussion guide materials for CAC meetings and DCP/CC/CDCs.
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Tim Day
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2015, 09:54:02 AM »

There really isn't any excuse for that physical condition other than the staff and leadership parents allowing it as a cop-out.


Fixed that for you.

I'm going to lump parents into that group as well. It's on both ends. CAP leadership at the lower level has the responsibility to enforce the standards employed by the top tier. It's true; they can only do so much with what the cadet brings to the table, and a great deal of what they bring starts at home. However, just like the real world, personal responsibility is key, and you can't simply blame parents for a CAP squadron commander who stands by and tells a cadet "Well, if you really don't feel like doing PT today, I think it's okay if you sit out."

Maybe CAP could implement an ROTC-similar PT concept, where PT is a required event to participate in and achieve to progress, but on a smaller level. Rather than just increasing the standards, such as the number of push-ups, as one increases in grade, but adding on additional criteria---must pass ## PT events to promote to this level, must past all PT events to promote to this level.

What I don't want to see is a participation reduction in PT, and I don't want to see a cadet reduction in CAP, I do recognize that we are limiting ourselves if we mandate more PT participation for cadets. But at the same time, if this is going to be an organization with one of its purposes being to actively participate in real-life missions and training exercises to prepare an individual to conduct high-performance, high-energy, fatiguing activities, they need to be physically prepared to do so as well. CAP is not intended to be a JROTC organization in which cadets play military. It's about time the numerous CAP members who think it is go back and review this group's mission statement.
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Eaker Guy
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« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2015, 10:21:16 AM »

As a cadet, here's my two cents.

I can pass the mile with time to spare(I passed the Spaatz requirement for the mile run when I was 13). I can pass the sit up event with relative ease, and I can wiggle my way through the sit and reach. :) However, I never pass the push up event. If we tightened standards, I would not be able to promote. Does this mean I'm not fit? Of course not. I can run the socks off most anyone, and am pretty strong in my core and flexibility. Just because I can't pass the push ups doesn't mean that I'm not fit. Now, for the cadet that can't pass anything, will tightening standards help? No, I don't think it will. For those that can't pass, we should focus on their individual improvement, not shove them through the proverbial hoop that is the PT standard. As Sky Hornet said, individual responsibility is key. So, maybe instead of freaking out because this cadet can't pass a test, we work with him to improve his score by whatever is reasonable to help him improve himself physically. Therefore, we are fulfilling the goal of the PT program.

As for those that are lazy and don't like PT, I say get over it. In these instances, I go ahead and tighten the standards, if you know they are capable of passing. Again, case by case basis. The standards for everyone should not be raised just to motivate the 10% of lazy cadets(percentage is just a guess).

Make any sense?

--C/Maj Kiss
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A.Member
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« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2015, 10:53:37 AM »

CAP is not intended to be a JROTC organization in which cadets play military. It's about time the numerous CAP members who think it is go back and review this group's mission statement.
It's you that may want to go back and review Mission Statements. 

As a comparison:
AFJROTC:
Quote
Mission: "Develop citizens of character dedicated to serving their nation and community”

The objectives of JROTC are to educate and train high school cadets in citizenship, promote community service, instill responsibility, character, and self-discipline, and provide instruction in air and space fundamentals.

The AFJROTC program is grounded in the Air Force core values of integrity first, service before self, and excellence in all we do. The curriculum emphasizes the Air Force heritage and traditions, the development of flight, applied flight sciences, military aerospace policies, and space exploration.

Curriculum opportunities include:
•   Academic studies
•   Character education
•   Life skills education
•   Leadership opportunities
•   Team-building experiences
•   Intramural competition
•   Field trips / training opportunities

CAP Cadet Programs (per CAPR 52-16):
Quote
Mission. The Cadet Program transforms youth into dynamic Americans and aerospace leaders. CAP accomplishes its Congressionally-mandated Cadet Program (Title 36, U.S.C. 40302) through a curriculum of leadership, aerospace, fitness and character. The program follows a military model and emphasizes Air Force traditions and values. Today’s cadets are tomorrow’s aerospace leaders.

The mission statements look nearly identical because the CAP Cadet Program model is very tantamount to AFJROTC.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 11:20:02 AM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
A.Member
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« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2015, 11:15:47 AM »

I can pass the mile with time to spare(I passed the Spaatz requirement for the mile run when I was 13). I can pass the sit up event with relative ease, and I can wiggle my way through the sit and reach. :) However, I never pass the push up event. If we tightened standards, I would not be able to promote. Does this mean I'm not fit? Of course not. I can run the socks off most anyone, and am pretty strong in my core and flexibility. Just because I can't pass the push ups doesn't mean that I'm not fit.
Under the current program, you must pass the run plus 2 out of the 3 remaining evaluated items.  So, the current approach addresses your situation.

An alternate approach I'd support is to have a scoring model similar to the Physical Ability and Stamina Test (PAST) scoring.  Under the PAST system, points are earned.  A minimum total points is required but if you excel in one area, it can potentially make up for under-performing in another area.   

Let me be clear before someone flys off the handle - I'm not advocating adoption of PAST standards for our cadets.  I'm saying the scoring system used could serve as a model.

« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 11:27:06 AM by A.Member » Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
Eaker Guy
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Posts: 208

« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2015, 11:22:19 AM »

As a cadet, here's my two cents.

I can pass the mile with time to spare(I passed the Spaatz requirement for the mile run when I was 13). I can pass the sit up event with relative ease, and I can wiggle my way through the sit and reach. :) However, I never pass the push up event. If we tightened standards, I would not be able to promote. Does this mean I'm not fit? Of course not. I can run the socks off most anyone, and am pretty strong in my core and flexibility. Just because I can't pass the push ups doesn't mean that I'm not fit. Now, for the cadet that can't pass anything, will tightening standards help? No, I don't think it will. For those that can't pass, we should focus on their individual improvement, not shove them through the proverbial hoop that is the PT standard. As Sky Hornet said, individual responsibility is key. So, maybe instead of freaking out because this cadet can't pass a test, we work with him to improve his score by whatever is reasonable to help him improve himself physically. Therefore, we are fulfilling the goal of the PT program.

As for those that are lazy and don't like PT, I say get over it. In these instances, I go ahead and tighten the standards, if you know they are capable of passing. Again, case by case basis. The standards for everyone should not be raised just to motivate the 10% of lazy cadets(percentage is just a guess).

Make any sense?

--C/Maj Kiss
Under the current program, you must pass the run plus 2 out of the 3 remaining evaluated items.  So, the current approach addresses your situation.

An alternate approach I'd support is to have a scoring model similar to the Physical Ability and Stamina Test (PAST) scoring.  Under the PAST system, points are earned.  A minimum total points required but if you excel in one area, it can potentially make up for under-performing in another area.   

Let me be clear before someone flys off the handle - I'm not advocating adoption of PAST standards for our cadets.  I'm saying the scoring system used could serve as a model.

Yup, and I am passing PT.  :) One of the suggestions was to make it mandatory to pass all CPFT events to promote. My reply was to share my opinion on that. If that was to occur, a fit cadet like myself would not be able to promote. :( This would only hurt the cadets.

The PAST system in intriguing. Good suggestion. I won't fly off the handle, I promise!

--C/Maj Kiss
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jeders
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« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2015, 01:13:19 PM »

I can pass the mile with time to spare(I passed the Spaatz requirement for the mile run when I was 13). I can pass the sit up event with relative ease, and I can wiggle my way through the sit and reach. :) However, I never pass the push up event. If we tightened standards, I would not be able to promote. Does this mean I'm not fit? Of course not. I can run the socks off most anyone, and am pretty strong in my core and flexibility. Just because I can't pass the push ups doesn't mean that I'm not fit.
Under the current program, you must pass the run plus 2 out of the 3 remaining evaluated items.  So, the current approach addresses your situation.

An alternate approach I'd support is to have a scoring model similar to the Physical Ability and Stamina Test (PAST) scoring.  Under the PAST system, points are earned.  A minimum total points is required but if you excel in one area, it can potentially make up for under-performing in another area.   

Let me be clear before someone flys off the handle - I'm not advocating adoption of PAST standards for our cadets.  I'm saying the scoring system used could serve as a model.

And that's the way the PT test used to be scored. The run, sit ups, and sit and reach were worth so many points based on how you did, and then each achievement required a certain number of points to earn. Personally, I'd be in favor of going back to a system like that where a cadet who can run like greased lightning but can't touch his toes isn't being held up unnecessarily.

As for the comments made about whether or not to require PT standards at all for Phase I cadets, I'd be in favor of treating PT during Phase I only like we treat Character Development. Cadets must participate in at least 50% of the physical fitness training offered by the squadron, regardless of whether or not they pass the CPFT standards. This allows us to stress the importance of physical fitness throughout their life while not holding them back if they've spent most of their life on a couch.
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NC Hokie
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« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2015, 01:52:45 PM »

And that's the way the PT test used to be scored. The run, sit ups, and sit and reach were worth so many points based on how you did, and then each achievement required a certain number of points to earn. Personally, I'd be in favor of going back to a system like that where a cadet who can run like greased lightning but can't touch his toes isn't being held up unnecessarily.

Agreed.

As for the comments made about whether or not to require PT standards at all for Phase I cadets, I'd be in favor of treating PT during Phase I only like we treat Character Development. Cadets must participate in at least 50% of the physical fitness training offered by the squadron, regardless of whether or not they pass the CPFT standards. This allows us to stress the importance of physical fitness throughout their life while not holding them back if they've spent most of their life on a couch.

Agreed again, with the stipulation that the CPFT standards used in Phase I be identical to the ones used at the beginning of Phase II so that cadets are spending their time practicing to meet those standards when the time comes.  It would stink to have a cadet work towards an 8 minute mile (just pulling the number out of thin air) only to fail the first Phase II CPFT because the standard is 7 minutes.
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NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

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« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2015, 02:27:18 PM »

Let's go back to CAPR 52-16 and read what the purpose of the fitness component of CP is: "to develop in cadets a habit of regular exercise". The purpose is not to pass CPFT every two months, although we certainly need a good CPFT as our measurement for whether we're succeeding.
This is a valid argument.

I strongly disagree with the sentiment A.Member implies, that out-of-shape cadets are not welcome.
This is neither what I stated nor implied. 

What I did imply is that any cadet that is unwilling to put in effort related to PT (or any other aspect of the CP for that matter), selected the wrong organization.  PT is part of our program.  If a cadet is "not able" to run 1 mile, especially after a few months, they're simply not putting in the effort.  To this point, I've seen overweight, out-of-shape cadets come in, put in the work, and make SIGNIFICANT fitness/lifestyle improvements.  That's something we want to encourage.

No one said they can't/won't run a mile. But if a kid comes in with a 12-13 minute mile, and needs a 9 minute mile, that's not a quick turnaround.

The idea is to allow them to be active in the cadet culture, while working on their physical conditioning, instead of stagnating.

They are walking the whole thing if that is their mile time, they are not running. Most teen aged people can walk near a 10 minute mile. What is needed in time spent training the cadets, help them run by pacing them, teach them the right way to run, encourage them as they improve. Maybe set up a weekly or twice a month get together with the cadets on a Sat and help them with their PT, dont just sit back and watch them fail and blame the test or expect them to improve with no input.


I was running a 7 minute mile in 7th grade, and IIRC, speed walked in the low 13s, yes. But when a kid who can't run a mile starts running, and then has to walk because they are out of shape, 12-13 minute miles are quite frequent.


Besides, I've got sub-5ft 12 year olds and 6ft+ 16 year olds joining, their walking miles will vary quite a lot.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2015, 02:39:41 PM »

As a cadet, here's my two cents.

I can pass the mile with time to spare(I passed the Spaatz requirement for the mile run when I was 13). I can pass the sit up event with relative ease, and I can wiggle my way through the sit and reach. :) However, I never pass the push up event. If we tightened standards, I would not be able to promote. Does this mean I'm not fit? Of course not. I can run the socks off most anyone, and am pretty strong in my core and flexibility. Just because I can't pass the push ups doesn't mean that I'm not fit. Now, for the cadet that can't pass anything, will tightening standards help? No, I don't think it will. For those that can't pass, we should focus on their individual improvement, not shove them through the proverbial hoop that is the PT standard. As Sky Hornet said, individual responsibility is key. So, maybe instead of freaking out because this cadet can't pass a test, we work with him to improve his score by whatever is reasonable to help him improve himself physically. Therefore, we are fulfilling the goal of the PT program.

As for those that are lazy and don't like PT, I say get over it. In these instances, I go ahead and tighten the standards, if you know they are capable of passing. Again, case by case basis. The standards for everyone should not be raised just to motivate the 10% of lazy cadets(percentage is just a guess).

Make any sense?

--C/Maj Kiss

That logic can be reversed just the same---
Why should we raise the standards when some people can't pass vs. Why should we lower the standards because some people can't pass?

Because you cannot pass the push-ups, does that mean there shouldn't be a push-up requirement as a mandatory part of PT standards?

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Ned
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« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2015, 02:46:24 PM »


[. . .]
My request/feedback is that whatever we come up is a more simplified assessment/measure than what PYFP put together; we don't need more bureaucracy/time sucks.  On initial review, PYFP seems a bit Rube Goldberg.

As a leader, parent, participant, etc., I want an easy to understand/reconcile "report" of my physical assessment.  PYFP, while perhaps trying to do the "right" things, doesn't meet that need. [ . . .]

Like you, I am also concerned about how long it will take a typical larger unit to conduct the assessment.

But for the sake of argument, even if it takes a bit longer, you are only going to be doing it quarterly instead of the current monthly requirement, so there should be a substantial net gain of training time for the unit.  Which should be used for fitness activities and education.  Still a win, I think.

 Have a little more patience until we can show you a product in the next few months.


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thebeggerpie
Recruit

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« Reply #53 on: August 08, 2015, 10:48:16 PM »

 I am not a thin guy, I'm pretty stocky. I'm not fast, but I have a lot of stamina. So when I see, for my age and rank that I need to run a mile under 7 minutes, I'm really sweating. Last time I ran a mile that fast, it was 7:40, which is 20 seconds faster than my average, and that was at the height of my running.

 Shuttle run is even harder for me, because, like I said, I'm just not that fast. But I can keep a 8:00 mile, average for 5 miles straight. I've won awards in 5K and 10K races because everybody burns out in the first mile or so, but I can keep chugging. But speed is important, not stamina. :/


 On sit-ups, I'm slower, I take my time. My father has back problems, and I'm trying not to develop them(I spent a little too much time as a child watching him lay on a couch or bed on his face, because he couldn't move without pain.). The other cadets, when testing, are throwing themselves up and down against the surface(ranging from grass, concrete, and rubber tracking), just to make it in time for the situps. I can't see how this healthy for their backs. I refuse to do it, so I do end up barely making it these days, if I beat the clock.

 
 Push-ups, I'm just a lazy cadet and hate to do them, so it's my fault there.



 Just a quick blurp from another cadet.
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TheSkyHornet
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« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2015, 11:36:48 AM »

Well, the way I see it, PT testing standards are required. It is not required to add in additional Physical Fitness Training. Chapter 4 of CAPP 52-18 has some good exercises that can be incorporated into the program, especially on a non-testing day (since you wouldn't normally do a fitness test and non-standard exercises on the same day).

With the shuttle being pulled out, add in some extra exercises on a day that didn't used to have PT as a filler. Obviously, PT is only sustainable by the cadets doing it themselves outside of the program, but it's an encouraging activity to add some cardio in on a meeting day for a half-hour or so.

We just got word with our unit that we're no longer going to conduct the shuttle run. It came down through Ohio Wing, so that's that. Got some feedback from the cadets that a few of them aren't pleased about it since they don't feel confident with the mile run, but we can help some of them out with that and do what we can. It's up to them to maintain the endurance ability themselves.

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NC Wing Range Master
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Iredell CAP
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2015, 10:54:42 PM »

Maybe it is just because my background is all Army, (24 years active duty most on AIRBORNE status in the AWESOME 82d AIRBORNE), BUT, what's next?  I agree that we need to do what we can to limit/lessen injuries...Trust me, being a disabled Veteran, I can attest to you that getting hurt sucks...HOWEVER....We are going to stop the shuttle run to lower injuries?  WOW, why don't we just wrap them up in bubble wrap and let them bounce down the road?

This question may seem silly, but think about this.  Our REAL WORLD Mission is Search and Rescue, hence Hawk Mountain, Ground Team running with gear, Stuff you need helmets for...Need I go on?  How can we expect to engender in our Cadets the spirit and attitude needed for survival in harsh environments when we stop a simple thing like a shuttle run because it is "Unsafe".  How many Basketball coaches would choke on their chewing gum if you told them that they had to stop 1/4 Court - 1/2 Court - 3/4 Court- Full Court sprints?  Did no one other than me do this in Gym in High School?

I would submit that Yes, you need to select a solid, non rocky, surface to do the test.  A Hangar floor or a Drill Hall, or a taxiway at the airfield for instance, but it is not the approved solution to end it altogether.
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PHall
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« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2015, 11:23:57 PM »

Maybe it is just because my background is all Army, (24 years active duty most on AIRBORNE status in the AWESOME 82d AIRBORNE), BUT, what's next?  I agree that we need to do what we can to limit/lessen injuries...Trust me, being a disabled Veteran, I can attest to you that getting hurt sucks...HOWEVER....We are going to stop the shuttle run to lower injuries?  WOW, why don't we just wrap them up in bubble wrap and let them bounce down the road?

This question may seem silly, but think about this.  Our REAL WORLD Mission is Search and Rescue, hence Hawk Mountain, Ground Team running with gear, Stuff you need helmets for...Need I go on?  How can we expect to engender in our Cadets the spirit and attitude needed for survival in harsh environments when we stop a simple thing like a shuttle run because it is "Unsafe".  How many Basketball coaches would choke on their chewing gum if you told them that they had to stop 1/4 Court - 1/2 Court - 3/4 Court- Full Court sprints?  Did no one other than me do this in Gym in High School?

I would submit that Yes, you need to select a solid, non rocky, surface to do the test.  A Hangar floor or a Drill Hall, or a taxiway at the airfield for instance, but it is not the approved solution to end it altogether.

How does the Shuttle Run help a cadet be prepared to be on a Ground Team???  Haven't seen too many teams who run 30 feet, stop, reverse direction and run 30 feet the other way. What exactly is the Shuttle Run testing?
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2015, 11:28:06 PM »

Maybe it is just because my background is all Army, (24 years active duty most on AIRBORNE status in the AWESOME 82d AIRBORNE), BUT, what's next?  I agree that we need to do what we can to limit/lessen injuries...Trust me, being a disabled Veteran, I can attest to you that getting hurt sucks...HOWEVER....We are going to stop the shuttle run to lower injuries?  WOW, why don't we just wrap them up in bubble wrap and let them bounce down the road?

This question may seem silly, but think about this.  Our REAL WORLD Mission is Search and Rescue, hence Hawk Mountain, Ground Team running with gear, Stuff you need helmets for...Need I go on?  How can we expect to engender in our Cadets the spirit and attitude needed for survival in harsh environments when we stop a simple thing like a shuttle run because it is "Unsafe".  How many Basketball coaches would choke on their chewing gum if you told them that they had to stop 1/4 Court - 1/2 Court - 3/4 Court- Full Court sprints?  Did no one other than me do this in Gym in High School?

I would submit that Yes, you need to select a solid, non rocky, surface to do the test.  A Hangar floor or a Drill Hall, or a taxiway at the airfield for instance, but it is not the approved solution to end it altogether.

In my experience, many cadets who could pass the shuttle run, could not pass the mile run.

In addition, I haven't seen any situation requiring ground team members to run, much less run with gear. That would not only be unsafe, but plain silly and irresponsible.
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Fubar
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« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2015, 11:29:37 PM »

Our REAL WORLD Mission is Search and Rescue, hence Hawk Mountain, Ground Team running with gear, Stuff you need helmets for...Need I go on?

Perhaps I'm spitting hairs here, but SAR is a mission, not the mission of the CAP. Additionally, the physical fitness program and requirements that exist within the cadet program are not to prepare them for SAR, it's supposed to promote a healthy lifestyle.

Perhaps I live a sheltered life, but I've never seen a single ground team member run while wearing their gear. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've never seen one run period.
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Brit_in_CAP
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« Reply #59 on: August 27, 2015, 08:46:57 AM »

Our REAL WORLD Mission is Search and Rescue, hence Hawk Mountain, Ground Team running with gear, Stuff you need helmets for...Need I go on?

Perhaps I'm spitting hairs here, but SAR is a mission, not the mission of the CAP. Additionally, the physical fitness program and requirements that exist within the cadet program are not to prepare them for SAR, it's supposed to promote a healthy lifestyle.

Perhaps I live a sheltered life, but I've never seen a single ground team member run while wearing their gear. In fact, I'm pretty sure I've never seen one run period.
+1  :clap: :clap:
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Shuttle Run Moratorium
 


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