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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Hysterical History  |  Topic: Database of CAP Members Killed on Duty, 1945 - Present
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Author Topic: Database of CAP Members Killed on Duty, 1945 - Present  (Read 7173 times)
MisterCD
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« on: June 21, 2015, 08:21:41 PM »

Hopefully the image of the memo will pass on what this is about.

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THRAWN
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2015, 06:33:46 AM »

Just to clarify: define "on duty".

Are you just looking for AFAAMs, or "on duty" as a commander or staffer?
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Strup
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lordmonar
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2015, 09:01:50 AM »

What difference should it make?
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
THRAWN
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« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2015, 09:13:11 AM »

What difference should it make?

It should not make a difference. Just trying to get to the intent of the project. Is it to memorialize members who died while bombing whales, or is it to memorialize the wing DO who had a heart attack in a wing budget meeting. Granted, both are "on duty" but does that meet the intent of the memo?
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Strup
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MisterCD
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« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2015, 12:38:14 PM »

Just to clarify: define "on duty".

Are you just looking for AFAAMs, or "on duty" as a commander or staffer?

Aircrew, staff, cadets, all provided they were engaged directly in a CAP activity at the time of their death. Someone who happened to be a member of CAP but died at home is not who we are looking for.
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JeffDG
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« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2015, 02:51:03 PM »

I've suspected I was about to keel over during many a CAP con-call...at home...does that count?

Sorry...I shouldn't be joking about an obviously worthy effort to remember those who died, under whatever circumstances, serving our organization.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2015, 06:53:39 AM »

Just to clarify: define "on duty".

Are you just looking for AFAAMs, or "on duty" as a commander or staffer?

Aircrew, staff, cadets, all provided they were engaged directly in a CAP activity at the time of their death. Someone who happened to be a member of CAP but died at home is not who we are looking for.

Thanks. Good info.
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Strup
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Alaric
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2015, 08:34:22 AM »

Just to clarify: define "on duty".

Are you just looking for AFAAMs, or "on duty" as a commander or staffer?

Aircrew, staff, cadets, all provided they were engaged directly in a CAP activity at the time of their death. Someone who happened to be a member of CAP but died at home is not who we are looking for.

Just out of curiosity, why?  Why is someone who died in a car crash on his way to an encampment, or while at an encampment, more worthy of memorialization then a 50 year member who is hugely active but dies at home of a heart attack?  As volunteers aren't we always members?  Am I not "engaged directly in a CAP activity" if I'm home working on reports, doing budgets, arranging for people to participate in the next SAREX, whatever.  Every 2 day Wing conference represents hundreds of hours of behind the scene work, I can only imagine how much work needs to happen to pull off a week long encampment.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2015, 08:48:43 AM »

Just to clarify: define "on duty".

Are you just looking for AFAAMs, or "on duty" as a commander or staffer?

Aircrew, staff, cadets, all provided they were engaged directly in a CAP activity at the time of their death. Someone who happened to be a member of CAP but died at home is not who we are looking for.

Just out of curiosity, why?  Why is someone who died in a car crash on his way to an encampment, or while at an encampment, more worthy of memorialization then a 50 year member who is hugely active but dies at home of a heart attack?  As volunteers aren't we always members?  Am I not "engaged directly in a CAP activity" if I'm home working on reports, doing budgets, arranging for people to participate in the next SAREX, whatever.  Every 2 day Wing conference represents hundreds of hours of behind the scene work, I can only imagine how much work needs to happen to pull off a week long encampment.

Which was the basis of my original question.

To comment on your final thought, I used to conduct a week long GSAR school in NJ Wing. During the summer, we had 3 levels of training running concurrently. After it was over, I'd take a week off, and then begin planning the next year's course. It took about 50 weeks of planning, training, rewriting, making sure we had the most current industry doctrine, etc, to pull it off. That's on top of a regular job, mowing the lawn, bio breaks....

It's a good thought to memorialize members who dies while actively engaged in a CAP activity, but that's a broadly defined term. Is the FINAL SALUTE in the CAP news (or what ever it is calling itself these days) not a thing anymore?
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Strup
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sardak
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« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2015, 10:46:13 AM »

Final Salute, listing "current, former members who have passed", updated last week and goes back to July, 2009

http://www.capvolunteernow.com/final_salute/

Mike
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LSThiker
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« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2015, 12:39:05 PM »

Just to clarify: define "on duty".

Are you just looking for AFAAMs, or "on duty" as a commander or staffer?

Aircrew, staff, cadets, all provided they were engaged directly in a CAP activity at the time of their death. Someone who happened to be a member of CAP but died at home is not who we are looking for.

Just out of curiosity, why?  Why is someone who died in a car crash on his way to an encampment, or while at an encampment, more worthy of memorialization then a 50 year member who is hugely active but dies at home of a heart attack?  As volunteers aren't we always members?  Am I not "engaged directly in a CAP activity" if I'm home working on reports, doing budgets, arranging for people to participate in the next SAREX, whatever.  Every 2 day Wing conference represents hundreds of hours of behind the scene work, I can only imagine how much work needs to happen to pull off a week long encampment.

Because it is too easy to fall in a slippery slope with that. Death is 100% so why not everyone that participated in CAP?  Did not they all contribute to CAP in at least a minute way?

Also, it is an easily defined line. Were they on official CAP time?  No, then they are not included. If yes, then they are included.  it would be difficult to demonstrate they were working on CAP stuff at home.  What about people that were working on encampment items, got into a car to pickup lunch and died in a car accident. Would they be included? 

That line just makes life much easier to define.
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NC Hokie
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« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2015, 12:58:33 PM »

I may be reading too much into the original subject line, but it does ask for members KILLED on duty.  To me, that suggests members that died as a direct result of whatever CAP duty they were performing at the time of death.
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NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

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Alaric
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« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2015, 01:27:06 PM »

Just to clarify: define "on duty".

Are you just looking for AFAAMs, or "on duty" as a commander or staffer?

Aircrew, staff, cadets, all provided they were engaged directly in a CAP activity at the time of their death. Someone who happened to be a member of CAP but died at home is not who we are looking for.

Just out of curiosity, why?  Why is someone who died in a car crash on his way to an encampment, or while at an encampment, more worthy of memorialization then a 50 year member who is hugely active but dies at home of a heart attack?  As volunteers aren't we always members?  Am I not "engaged directly in a CAP activity" if I'm home working on reports, doing budgets, arranging for people to participate in the next SAREX, whatever.  Every 2 day Wing conference represents hundreds of hours of behind the scene work, I can only imagine how much work needs to happen to pull off a week long encampment.

Because it is too easy to fall in a slippery slope with that. Death is 100% so why not everyone that participated in CAP?  Did not they all contribute to CAP in at least a minute way?

Also, it is an easily defined line. Were they on official CAP time?  No, then they are not included. If yes, then they are included.  it would be difficult to demonstrate they were working on CAP stuff at home.  What about people that were working on encampment items, got into a car to pickup lunch and died in a car accident. Would they be included? 

That line just makes life much easier to define.

To me dying of a heart attack in my bunk at an encampment is no more or less of service to CAP then dying in my living room while doing the budget for this years conference
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lordmonar
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« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2015, 01:51:34 PM »

This is why we can't have nice things.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
THRAWN
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« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2015, 02:01:36 PM »

This is why we can't have nice things.

Why? Because people ask questions about vaguely worded requests for information?
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Strup
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LSThiker
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« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2015, 02:03:45 PM »

Just to clarify: define "on duty".

Are you just looking for AFAAMs, or "on duty" as a commander or staffer?

Aircrew, staff, cadets, all provided they were engaged directly in a CAP activity at the time of their death. Someone who happened to be a member of CAP but died at home is not who we are looking for.

Just out of curiosity, why?  Why is someone who died in a car crash on his way to an encampment, or while at an encampment, more worthy of memorialization then a 50 year member who is hugely active but dies at home of a heart attack?  As volunteers aren't we always members?  Am I not "engaged directly in a CAP activity" if I'm home working on reports, doing budgets, arranging for people to participate in the next SAREX, whatever.  Every 2 day Wing conference represents hundreds of hours of behind the scene work, I can only imagine how much work needs to happen to pull off a week long encampment.

Because it is too easy to fall in a slippery slope with that. Death is 100% so why not everyone that participated in CAP?  Did not they all contribute to CAP in at least a minute way?

Also, it is an easily defined line. Were they on official CAP time?  No, then they are not included. If yes, then they are included.  it would be difficult to demonstrate they were working on CAP stuff at home.  What about people that were working on encampment items, got into a car to pickup lunch and died in a car accident. Would they be included? 

That line just makes life much easier to define.

To me dying of a heart attack in my bunk at an encampment is no more or less of service to CAP then dying in my living room while doing the budget for this years conference

Did not say it was or was not. My point is:  with that line there is an objective criteria that is easily defined.

When you start to include people that were working at home on their computer who just happened to open an email about CAP, then that objective line can easily turn into a slippery slope.
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Holding Pattern
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« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2015, 02:22:09 PM »

This is why we can't have nice things.

Why? Because people ask questions about vaguely worded requests for information?

Because people can't respectfully ask for clarification is my guess.
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Alaric
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Posts: 782

« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2015, 02:58:40 PM »

Just to clarify: define "on duty".

Are you just looking for AFAAMs, or "on duty" as a commander or staffer?

Aircrew, staff, cadets, all provided they were engaged directly in a CAP activity at the time of their death. Someone who happened to be a member of CAP but died at home is not who we are looking for.

Just out of curiosity, why?  Why is someone who died in a car crash on his way to an encampment, or while at an encampment, more worthy of memorialization then a 50 year member who is hugely active but dies at home of a heart attack?  As volunteers aren't we always members?  Am I not "engaged directly in a CAP activity" if I'm home working on reports, doing budgets, arranging for people to participate in the next SAREX, whatever.  Every 2 day Wing conference represents hundreds of hours of behind the scene work, I can only imagine how much work needs to happen to pull off a week long encampment.

Because it is too easy to fall in a slippery slope with that. Death is 100% so why not everyone that participated in CAP?  Did not they all contribute to CAP in at least a minute way?

Also, it is an easily defined line. Were they on official CAP time?  No, then they are not included. If yes, then they are included.  it would be difficult to demonstrate they were working on CAP stuff at home.  What about people that were working on encampment items, got into a car to pickup lunch and died in a car accident. Would they be included? 

That line just makes life much easier to define.

To me dying of a heart attack in my bunk at an encampment is no more or less of service to CAP then dying in my living room while doing the budget for this years conference

Did not say it was or was not. My point is:  with that line there is an objective criteria that is easily defined.

When you start to include people that were working at home on their computer who just happened to open an email about CAP, then that objective line can easily turn into a slippery slope.

Just because a criteria is objective, does not make it good.  Now if the OP intent was only those killed as opposed to those who died while actively on a CAP event, that makes a little more sense.
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MisterCD
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2015, 03:15:49 PM »

The reasoning behind this is for a 75th anniversary edition of Flying Minute Men being assembled for reprint by AU Press, and if all works out this will be available in 2016. There is an appendix in the current manuscript of CAP members killed during World War II, predominantly aircrew. For the 75th, I thought it appropriate to log those killed since the war in air crashes, car accidents, miscellaneous accidents, etc. while actively engaged, in this sense "in the field," which was the criteria apparently applied to the World War II listing. Since no one has tracked those lost since World War II, things are somewhat nebulous to encourage all information to be gathered, thus I am open to any individual to be submitted with information. The intent is to honor all of those who as volunteers died in the service of the country performing their CAP duties.

If wondering for another reason why the program is trying to gather this information, a large tie in to this is Wreaths Across America. Annually I receive several emails from people asking about honoring the graves of CAP members killed over the years in the course of their duties. Without information aside from the World War II members, the only way to know is to start looking and gathering information.

And from the objective standpoint the list may devolve just to include those killed in air crashes, but then that would ignore those who died in vehicular accidents on a ground team assignment, or who died at an airfield or air show due to an accident while marshaling aircraft or people. We have to start somewhere and I'd rather try to assemble information than do nothing at all.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2015, 03:26:51 PM by MisterCD » Logged
LSThiker
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2015, 03:22:40 PM »

Quote
Just because a criteria is objective, does not make it good.  Now if the OP intent was only those killed as opposed to those who died while actively on a CAP event, that makes a little more sense.

True, just because something is objective does not make it good. However, it makes it defendable.

If peoe that just happen to be working on CAP items at the time are included, then why not everyone that was in CAP?  The list becomes meaningless. However that does not mean their contributions are meaningless   

Let me propose a scenario. Would you include a person that was on vacation from work, walking across the street. Gets an email on his phone that is CAP related. While reading it, he Gets hit by a car and dies.

Would you include a person that that gets hit by a car while thinking about a proposal for an activity that he was given 1 hr prior?

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Alaric
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2015, 03:38:34 PM »

Quote
Just because a criteria is objective, does not make it good.  Now if the OP intent was only those killed as opposed to those who died while actively on a CAP event, that makes a little more sense.

True, just because something is objective does not make it good. However, it makes it defendable.

If peoe that just happen to be working on CAP items at the time are included, then why not everyone that was in CAP?  The list becomes meaningless. However that does not mean their contributions are meaningless   

Let me propose a scenario. Would you include a person that was on vacation from work, walking across the street. Gets an email on his phone that is CAP related. While reading it, he Gets hit by a car and dies.

Would you include a person that that gets hit by a car while thinking about a proposal for an activity that he was given 1 hr prior?

It would depend on my purpose for memorializing them, If I am memorializing all those who have served in the CAP and are no longer with us, then yes.  If as Mister CD has just indicated it is to memorialize those who were killed (as opposed to died) while performing at a CAP event, then no.  Since the OP intent is now obvious, I may not agree with his criteria but at least it makes an internal logical sense
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MisterCD
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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2015, 05:39:05 PM »

Quote
Just because a criteria is objective, does not make it good.  Now if the OP intent was only those killed as opposed to those who died while actively on a CAP event, that makes a little more sense.

True, just because something is objective does not make it good. However, it makes it defendable.

If peoe that just happen to be working on CAP items at the time are included, then why not everyone that was in CAP?  The list becomes meaningless. However that does not mean their contributions are meaningless   

Let me propose a scenario. Would you include a person that was on vacation from work, walking across the street. Gets an email on his phone that is CAP related. While reading it, he Gets hit by a car and dies.

Would you include a person that that gets hit by a car while thinking about a proposal for an activity that he was given 1 hr prior?

It would depend on my purpose for memorializing them, If I am memorializing all those who have served in the CAP and are no longer with us, then yes.  If as Mister CD has just indicated it is to memorialize those who were killed (as opposed to died) while performing at a CAP event, then no.  Since the OP intent is now obvious, I may not agree with his criteria but at least it makes an internal logical sense

This list is not intended in any to replace the memorializing of those who served in CAP and have passed.
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Alaric
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2015, 10:20:57 PM »

Quote
Just because a criteria is objective, does not make it good.  Now if the OP intent was only those killed as opposed to those who died while actively on a CAP event, that makes a little more sense.

True, just because something is objective does not make it good. However, it makes it defendable.

If peoe that just happen to be working on CAP items at the time are included, then why not everyone that was in CAP?  The list becomes meaningless. However that does not mean their contributions are meaningless   

Let me propose a scenario. Would you include a person that was on vacation from work, walking across the street. Gets an email on his phone that is CAP related. While reading it, he Gets hit by a car and dies.

Would you include a person that that gets hit by a car while thinking about a proposal for an activity that he was given 1 hr prior?

It would depend on my purpose for memorializing them, If I am memorializing all those who have served in the CAP and are no longer with us, then yes.  If as Mister CD has just indicated it is to memorialize those who were killed (as opposed to died) while performing at a CAP event, then no.  Since the OP intent is now obvious, I may not agree with his criteria but at least it makes an internal logical sense

This list is not intended in any to replace the memorializing of those who served in CAP and have passed.

Then I guess I don't get the point, but I don't need to
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SarDragon
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« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2015, 10:51:42 PM »

Just as an aside:

criterion - singular

criteria - plural

Now back to our regularly scheduled bickering.
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Dave Bowles
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Cindi
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« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2015, 08:29:44 PM »

Good project, I sent details to Seth on 14 year old cadet James Gillie Oppel who died in 1970 and 16 year old cadet Edwin Gueuera who died in 1977, both of whom died in aircraft accidents on official Civil Air Patrol activities.
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MisterCD
Forum Regular

Posts: 162

« Reply #25 on: June 26, 2015, 09:10:42 AM »

Good project, I sent details to Seth on 14 year old cadet James Gillie Oppel who died in 1970 and 16 year old cadet Edwin Gueuera who died in 1977, both of whom died in aircraft accidents on official Civil Air Patrol activities.

Many thanks for sending this info to Seth, it is greatly appreciated.
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Hysterical History  |  Topic: Database of CAP Members Killed on Duty, 1945 - Present
 


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