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Author Topic: Civil air patrol CAC Cards  (Read 26279 times)
slimshady
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« on: May 22, 2015, 05:22:05 PM »

Hello everyone i was not sure where to post this question but here seems like a good choice, i have been a member of civil air patrol since high school and have seen a few different types of id cards, they seem to be getting cheaper and less believable as a respectable id for civil air patrol then i came across a story from 2011,  when they were debating what the new card should be and the first proposed one looked like a standard DOD CAC Card and it got me to thinking why don't they just issue at least senior members only the CAC Card since were supposedly part of the Air Force family and we go through FBI background checks and they hand them out to civilian contractors and other civilians but not the Auxiliary of Air Force ? also we should have commissary privileges since we volunteer our service we don't even get paid like the regular military or civilian employees and in world war 2 they trusted us to bomb German submarines but now don't trust us to go on our own bases. can anyone help with explaining the contradictions please.
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CapTalk
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« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2015, 06:41:36 PM »

Wait. Are you referring to common access card cards?
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Luis R. Ramos
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2015, 07:06:52 PM »

That is what he asks.

Common Access Card card. He typed CAC card.

Not more than one week ago there was a very spirited debate here. Is this person a troll, resurrecting a thread?
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abdsp51
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2015, 08:44:06 PM »

OP you want a  CAC card here's what you need to do: \

1) Goto Recruiter
2) Take ASVAB
3) Goto MEPS
4) Sign Contract
5) Goto Basic/Advanced training
6) Pass above

Then you can have a CAC card and go to the commissary all you want.  There are many facets to the AF family and not all f them have the same privileges.  There is more that goes into issuing a CAC card than just passing the FBI background check.  That check is not a full background check required for service and not every civilian contractor gets a CAC card.

There is a lot that goes into access to places and simply because you are CAP does not and should not grant you or any other member access to the commissary, BX, etc.  You want those all the time see above.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2015, 10:00:13 PM »

DeCA (Defense Commissary Agency) is an appropriated funds activity, and your chances, as just a CAP member, of getting commissary privileges, are miniscule, at best. Exchange privileges (non-appropriated funds activity) are more easily attainable, but don't hold your breath on that either.
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Dave Bowles
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lordmonar
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« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2015, 10:13:09 PM »

I thought we are were ignoring these guys.

Okay....Seriously.

If you think CAP members ought to have expanded AAFES and Commissary (and hell why not MWR, billeting, and AMC Space A) access.

It is simple.

Contact your local congress critter.   Tell them you think it should happen and let them change the law.

Access to these facilities are not up to the CAP nor even to the USAF.

As far as do we deserve this access.....I'm not going to even bother with that argument as it is a lose-lose no matter what side you pick.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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ranger0305
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« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2015, 10:21:27 PM »

Wait you guys can't use the PX or commissary? My squadron meets on an Air Force base and I have gone into the PX and commissary and purchased items multiple times. Is that not normal? Someone told me that our membership cards allowed us access to these places and every time I've gone in I showed my card, they smiled and sold the stuff to me.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 10:24:42 PM by ranger0305 » Report to moderator   Logged
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PA Guy
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« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2015, 10:48:10 PM »

Wait you guys can't use the PX or commissary? My squadron meets on an Air Force base and I have gone into the PX and commissary and purchased items multiple times. Is that not normal? Someone told me that our membership cards allowed us access to these places and every time I've gone in I showed my card, they smiled and sold the stuff to me.

"Someone" told you wrong. Read the regs and quit depending on "someone" for the correct information. The fact you got away with it doesn't mean it was within regulations or the right thing to do. Read CAPR 147-1 and learn.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 11:06:15 PM by PA Guy » Report to moderator   Logged
PHall
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« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2015, 12:11:37 AM »

Wait you guys can't use the PX or commissary? My squadron meets on an Air Force base and I have gone into the PX and commissary and purchased items multiple times. Is that not normal? Someone told me that our membership cards allowed us access to these places and every time I've gone in I showed my card, they smiled and sold the stuff to me.

Of course they smiled at you, you were giving them money. AAFES and DeCA are not shy when it comes to taking your money!
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abdsp51
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« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2015, 01:36:59 AM »

Wait you guys can't use the PX or commissary? My squadron meets on an Air Force base and I have gone into the PX and commissary and purchased items multiple times. Is that not normal? Someone told me that our membership cards allowed us access to these places and every time I've gone in I showed my card, they smiled and sold the stuff to me.

CAP can shop at clothing sales only in the bx.  Now AAFES has expanded use of its food court to anyone.  The commissary is open to official DOD ID card holders only.  And depending on the location this may mean contractors as well.  Stateside most contractors and AF civilians do not have access to these facilities. 

The establishments violating their own policies is nothing new.
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THRAWN
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« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2015, 02:55:09 AM »

I retract my objections to requiring a degree to become a CAP officer.
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Strup
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« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2015, 03:46:02 AM »

After careful reading of nims credentialing guidelines, the most likely scenario is that we get PIV-I cards someday. But for NGOs it isn't required, so that means a grant or an act of congress.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2015, 09:28:19 AM »

Here's a little gift for you, cdbz20.  I had these in a shoebox, looks like you can put them to use.

,,,,,,, ...... ------ ;;;;;;; ? ? ? ? ? ((((((( )))))))
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SarDragon
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« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2015, 09:54:53 AM »

Here's a little gift for you, cdbz20.  I had these in a shoebox, looks like you can put them to use.

,,,,,,, ...... ------ ;;;;;;; ? ? ? ? ? ((((((( )))))))

I think you lost him at the first comma.  >:D
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2015, 01:47:48 PM »

What might happen in the future (I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV, and I don't have my ear to the wall to glean juicy gossip and speculation from the PTB) :

We'll probably get DBIDS ID cards to get on base; though right now DBIDS cards are issued by the base and only access that installation. The base commander is still the ultimate authority as to who can or cannot get beyond the guard shack, based on the data obtained by the background check. When that will happen? Don't hold your breath.

To clarify and correct what ranger0305 mentioned in his post:

As a DoD contractor with a stateside CAC you can:

Purchase sundries at the Exchange's Express (or whatever the Squiddies/Gyrenes call their equivalent) except for liquor and tobacco
Purchase gasoline
Become a member of the MWR activities (club, craft shop, etc.)

You cannot purchase at the Exchange, commissary or military clothing sales (the exception being CAP authorized use and purchase at the MCSS only). Neither can you access the online exchange store.

CAP members have exchange privileges only when occupying government lodging facilities and then only with a valid military support authorization letter issued by the AF liaison region.

Overseas CACs allow unlimited exchange and commissary use, as well as use of overseas MWR facilities (Dragon Hill Lodge in Korea, for example). When I had an overseas CAC (while stationed at Kwajalein) I had no problem accessing the exchange and commissary while on my stateside leave.

Most exchange and commissary cashiers are not going to be familiar with MSAs, and might give you (wrongly) a pass if you are wearing a military-style (AF style) uniform; remember that the exchange and commissary is a privilege and not a right.


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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2015, 04:12:02 PM »

Quote
...why don't they just issue at least senior members only the CAC Card since were supposedly part of the Air Force family and we go through FBI background checks and they hand them out to civilian contractors and other civilians but not the Auxiliary of Air Force ?

While issuing a Common Access Card (CAC) to CAP members is certainly possible, the process is not as simple as some may think. First, there's a cost associated with the card; much higher than our current CAP ID cards. Second, while CAP members pay their dues each year, many are not necessarily active. Once you get that initial FBI background check, CAP has no process in place for vetting its members. Contractors, on the other hand, are vetted not only by their employers, but by an Air Force official. And that process is not a one time thing. They're also required to take training that CAP members currently are not. When a contractor is no longer working for that company or on that contract, there's a process in place to retrieve the CAC. CAP members come and go and there's no effective way to retrieve a CAC from a member who is now inactive since we don't even have a standard for what inactive means. The list of challenges goes on.

Quote
also we should have commissary privileges since we volunteer our service we don't even get paid like the regular military or civilian employees and in world war 2 they trusted us to bomb German submarines but now don't trust us to go on our own bases. can anyone help with explaining the contradictions please.

First of all, the commissary and exchange services are benefits for service members and certain DoD employees, which we are not. Not even contractors have access to all the facilities that service members and DoD employees do. Second, what CAP did 75 years ago has no relevance with what our members do today. Last I checked, none of us have dropped bombs on anything as part of CAP. We are volunteers. The reward we get is that of serving our communities, states and nation. Anyone needing more than that can join one of the uniformed services or many public safety agencies.
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2015, 05:37:24 AM »

All of the objections, ALL, to issuing functional ID cards to CAP to serve as physical ID, access control and qualification certification are bogus. It most definitely can be done. Look at the SIDA access control and credentialing systems at airports.

At LAX, I issued over 200,000 during a 5-6 year period (including a complete issue, followed by a 100% reissue following 9-11, plus accounting for turnover. Our "unrecovered terminated" percentGe was ridiculously low, maintained by simple audits).

In other words - the question isn't "Can it be done for CAP?" The correct question is "Does CAP and or USAF want to see it done?" If the answer to the question is "Yes," then all that remains is doing it.
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CAP has been bery, bery good to me.
abdsp51
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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2015, 08:20:46 AM »

All of the objections, ALL, to issuing functional ID cards to CAP to serve as physical ID, access control and qualification certification are bogus. It most definitely can be done. Look at the SIDA access control and credentialing systems at airports.

At LAX, I issued over 200,000 during a 5-6 year period (including a complete issue, followed by a 100% reissue following 9-11, plus accounting for turnover. Our "unrecovered terminated" percentGe was ridiculously low, maintained by simple audits).

In other words - the question isn't "Can it be done for CAP?" The correct question is "Does CAP and or USAF want to see it done?" If the answer to the question is "Yes," then all that remains is doing it.

Who is going to foot the bill for the additional workload and cost for supplies?  It's already a PIA process for AD Mil, Retirees and their dependents to get cards initially issued and reissued.  Are you telling me that all CAP members have the REQUIRED DOCUMENTS for an initial issue of these cards? 

How are we going to determine priority at the issuing offices for these, first come first serve?  There is so much more to this than just saying "Do it" and it's done.  You'll have to work out the issues getting through the gate.

In the event this does happen what do you propose happens to those who are caught misusing the card, or dabbling in shenanigans on the yard?  Are you willing to undergo a more thorough background check to get access to that little piece of plastic? What about the rest of the membership? 
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CAPs1
Recruit

Posts: 44

« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2015, 09:56:52 AM »

Exchange privileges are 'limited' for CAP members - page 24 Tables 7-1/7-2 - see link below, as already outlined by some.

CAP mission is not hindered by its members not having access to retail facilities on bases/posts. Unless that changes things will stay as is, as they should.
Online purchases for folks that have served and have honorable discharge are being considered and even that has met strong resistance.

Concur with Storm, Lordmonar and others.


http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r215_8.pdf
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2015, 01:44:05 PM »

All of the objections, ALL, to issuing functional ID cards to CAP to serve as physical ID, access control and qualification certification are bogus. It most definitely can be done. Look at the SIDA access control and credentialing systems at airports.

Who said it couldn't be done. I said it wasn't a simple process as some may think and it's not. It also cost money; lots of it. With reduced budgets and funding in recent years, the question could easily be one of CACs vs. encampment financial assistance or cadet uniform vouchers or new airplanes or vehicles. The cost associated with the CAC is not just that of the card itself. It includes the process and infrastructure that needs to be put in place. Before the the Air Force (or DoD) would even consider issuing us CAC, the funds would have to be identified.

In other words - the question isn't "Can it be done for CAP?" The correct question is "Does CAP and or USAF want to see it done?" If the answer to the question is "Yes," then all that remains is doing it.

I have another question. Do CAP members really need CACs? Not every DoD contractor is issued a CAC; only those who require constant access to military facilities or networks. CAP members require no access to Air Force networks and only some CAP units are located in military bases or close to one. Units who are in military bases can prevent access issues by getting on an approved Entry Access List (EAL).

An improved CAP ID is not a bad idea, but I doubt in needs to be a CAC. Military retirees and dependents are not issued CACs. Why should we? If cost is addressed, I would favored a DoD type ID. But that would require every CAP member to go to a military base to get their ID issued. DoD doesn't just mail these out like CAP does with our CAP ID cards. You see, the process is not that simple, as I stated before.
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