Advancing UP THE CHAIN

[Major Carrales]

For a while now I have given some thought to how people move up from ordinary member joining as a cadet sponsor to a WING COMMANDER!!!

This came to a head when the Major General described his CAP career at the 2007 Texas Wing Conference.

So, I should like to approach this two ways...

1) How did you rise up the chain? (if you ever had)

2) What are your recommended paths up the Chain?


My CAP career was went something like this.  I found some patches in High School (TX wing patch and name tape) and did a report.  Redicovered the patches while at the University.  Sought out a unit...joined.  Was sort of pushed asside since I was not a pilot.  Became a PAO to generate something to do.  Became a Group PAO.  The Original unit's original members collapsed after issues involving REGS...took command of the unit.  Let command go to attend more schooling.  Returned to rebuild some years later.  Now Command the unit again.  Have no desire to rise to Group Command (mostly because of the respect I hold for those already there and because I can do more at teh Squadron Level)

I think there should be two paths to the top...
1) Promotion to Squadron to Group to Wing to Region Command
2) Promotion to Squadron to Group to Wing to Region Staff

The Squadron Commander goes on to be a Group Staffer or Group Commander.  This allows the entry into the Wing Level, eventually command.

A Squadron Staff Officer can advance to Group and then to Command or Higher Staff from there.

The idea is that one spend time at the lower Command/Staff levels before advancing on to Wing Staff or Command.  There are times, I have noted, that people spend their first days in CAP at the Squadron and then, for some purpose, suddenly end up at Wing as Lt Cols. 

My premise that the one become verse with CAP systems before floating up to the top and making it up or radically changing things to disruptive ends with no foundation.  This way they ahve "been there, done that" in CAP and know what works and what does not. 

There are those that would say "we need fresh a start" to get things done so some new guy is needed.  Sorry...we don't turn new drivers of automobiles loose on the High Ways with no training in hopes that they will "find a new direction" for our motorways.

[afgeo4]

I joined a composite squadron in NYC because I wanted to work with cadets. With prior military experience I got the leadership officer slot. Did that for 2 years. Moved upstate and was offered the ES officer slot in that squadron because all the cadet program slots were taken. I accepted that. Worked that for 1.5 years. Moved back down to NYC and joined the group (my former DCC at my first unit was now the group CC) as the recruiting and retention officer due to my experience on the cadet and senior side and my having completed the AE Yeager Award. One week ago I was also handed the job of ES officer for Group due to my past experience. I am not a pilot. I will never become a pilot. I am no longer current in any ES specialty, but... I'm eager, fast, and enthusiastic about everything I do, so I get the job done. After all, as the ES training officer I'm not responsible for turning off ELTs. I'm responsible for the group having trained members who can turn off ELTs. I have a tech rating in Cadet Programs, and will be doing my interview for my Senior rating next month. I am in process of getting my Tech rating in Recruiting & Retention.... just need a seminar to attend. I am also in the tech track for ES, but that'll take a while. I am a Captain and it will be 5 years of service this Nov. I came in as a SM.

I think it's important not to get stuck in one side of the house so to speak. The more you know about Civil Air Patrol operations on a wide scale, the more useful you'll be to commanders. If you've been working with cadets your entire time, switch to PD. Switch to PA or ES. If you've just been flying ELT missions, try out ES or Cadet Programs. The more rounded you are, the better your decisions will be for the entire group/wing/region, etc.

[Eclipse]

The "organic" progression would seem to be up, but in the RealMilitary® its "up and out" / "up or out", which isn't the case in CAP.  As we have plenty of former Wing CC's sitting in holding units, and staffers who went back to other units.

For me, I sat in the back of my unit for over two years as a slick-sleeve, uninformed SM.  I was told grade came with involvement and activity, then none were offered.  Boy was I ticked when I actually found the regs on 2lt...

I have no idea >why< I was coming to meetings, no ratings, no grade, no staff job, nothing in the pipeline, and when I asked to be involved I was given BS jobs no one wanted or for which there was no direction (same difference). I was literally making the quit/stay decision, as many members do, especially those who are kept in the dark by unit CC's who don't know or don't care about anything other than their own progression, activities, and attention.

In this case, a fair number of GOB's had a beautifully maintained airframe under their thumb, and as long as it was fueled, clean, and ready, could basically do whatever they wanted - no MP's, no ground operations, but lots of holes burned in the sky - and they all "thought" they were an asset.

A new Group CC with plans and ideas visited us and asked if anyone was interested in helping with O-Flights.  I took the job and that was the >END< of my free time for the last 5 years.

I was supposed to be TDY to Group, and my first duty was to observe another Group's flight bivouac to see how they did things.

Whoa...

CADETS! 

I've heard of those - so that's what they look like in a group...

Salutes?!?!?!? Holy Moley!  People came to attention when the CC walked by, they said things like "Sir", and their was actually some care taken in the uniforms. Just like the brouchures.

OOHHHH!  SO >THIS< is CAP!   Got it.

TDY ended shortly after that - I transferred to Group, slotted as ESO/MISO, did time as CD, have been assistant to CC ever since.

6 Encampments, (4 as CC), GTM/GTL/GBD/MS, time in Katrina, and various elts etc., came naturally when I knew the "secret handshake".

When my former CC was hitting his term limit, names were mentioned and I was at the top of most lists, so three years later I am now looking for a new challenge - one which is likely a natural progression.

The grade and the PD came naturally with full engagement in the program.

My single biggest peeve in the program is the "I had to figure it out, so I'm not telling you..." attitude.

This isn't a zero-sum game and we can all play if we want to.  Having depth at positions means not ALWAYS having to be the "only one", but for some, that means giving up too much control.

[ColonelJack]

I joined a composite squadron in 1981 and went directly into Administration, Personnel, and Public Affairs tracks.  Within a year I was deputy commander for cadets and working my way through the cadet and aerospace education tracks as well.  (Currently hold master ratings in all of them, thankyouverymuch!)  By 1988, I was squadron commander.

I stayed in that position until 1993, when I went to Group staff.  Three years on group staff and I decided to retire (you could do that at 12 years or more back then).  I've toyed with the idea of coming back ever since, but I don't know whether I will or not.  Still deciding ... but you've noticed that I have all the newest uniforms, so if I do decide to rejoin, I'll have the full kit!

Jack

[dwb]

Joined as a cadet, did a bunch of stuff... all the standard positions in the squadron, bunch of positions at encampment (including C/CC), Wing CAC, Eaker award, etc.

Became a senior member, did a bunch of stuff... all the standard positions in the squsdron (including Commander), Group cadet programs, Group PAO, more encampments, Level III, etc.

Current duty assignments: leadership officer for my squadron, directing a TLC to be held in June, Commandant of Cadets at encampment.  It's the perfect level of involvement for me at this point in my life.

My personal belief is that no one should be a corporate officer if they haven't worked in a squadron, but I don't think there's a good way to codify that in the rules.  I think some Wing and Region CCs lose sight of what it's like to work in a squadron (some never have).

Ideally, Wing CCs are all former Squadron CCs, Wing staff officers used to do the same thing at Group or Squadron, etc.  Realistically, some people are actually better suited for Wing staff jobs than working in a squadron, and that's cool, too.  Our Wing PAO is the diggity bomb, and he was recruited directly off the street on to the Wing staff.

I have no desire to be Wing CC or anything crazy like that, at least, not anytime soon.  It'll be a while before I'm comfortable having the word "commander" in my title again; being a squadron commander was hard enough.

[Stonewall]

I agree with Dan.  I've seen far too many seniors start out at the squadron only to be a wing weenie a year later.  What's worse, is having a new senior member join and a year later they're the squadron commander.  Problem is, sometimes that's the only person available or willing to do it. 

I think a person should earn their master rating in a specific field before leaving the squadron level.  If you're a cadet programs type and want to go to group or wing to work on cadet programs staff, then you should be required to have the master level rating.  Same goes for any specialty.  While the rating itself does not make you an expert, it does mandate a minimum time frame for which you would have to be exposed to as much as possible at the squadron level.

I've seen shake n' bake commanders and directors more times than I care to remember in my years in CAP.  As an example, there was a SM in my wing that joined CAP and found it to be her calling.  By the time she was a 1st Lt she was at wing working on CAC, drill team, making major decisions on the wing's cadet program and in less than like 4 years she was the commandant of cadets at an encampment.  I remember stopping in to the encampment to check on my cadets and seeing her running around like a chicken with her head cut off not even in uniform.  Just a small sample of what the rest of what she did turned out.  At the time I had like 15 years in CAP to include time as a cadet, and she tried to tell me how it was.  I showed nothing but support and offered nothing buy my experience and she barked at me and spoke down to me like I was her assistant.  Had to let her have it, as much as I hate doing that.  I don't think the enamel dried on her captains bars when she was trying to tell me how much she knew.

I think there should be requirements for advancement to different levels in CAP.  Unfortunately we tend to always be in need of bodies and more often than not they'll take what (who) they can.

And for the record, Military Experience does not = the best person for the CAP job.  Nothing I can't stand more than the retired or former military type with zero CAP experience coming in to say "well in the military we did it like this, so this is how we're going to do it here".  While many aspects of the military do relate to CAP, by no means does it have everything to do with it.  In fact, the only thing it has to do with it relates almost solely to the cadet program and military uniform and rank. 

[Eclipse]

Stone - everything you said, I agree with, and if its one thing I hate, its people who recruted directly into
Group or Wing jobs from new membership.

But...

At our current level of membership, if we held people to performance before progression, we'd have a lot of empty slots. 

A lot...

[Stonewall]

Stone - everything you said, I agree with, and if its one thing I hate, its people who recruted directly into
Group or Wing jobs from new membership.

But...

At our current level of membership, if we held people to performance before progression, we'd have a lot of empty slots. 

A lot...

That's why I said this:

Unfortunately we tend to always be in need of bodies and more often than not they'll take what (who) they can.

[Trung Si Ma]

Joined as a cadet in '69 and got to do a lot of things - except fly.

Turned Senior when I joined the Army and stayed active as I traveled around the country and even after my retirement (15 years ago).  Got to play Squadron CC 10 times and Group CC twice.  Worked on Wing staffs in five different Regions holding jobs as Director of Cadet Programs, Director of Senior Programs, Emergency Services Officer, Director of Communications, Chief of Staff, and currently IG.

Always stayed active with whatever squadron was local, usually in cadet or senior programs.

Now, I teach a year long FAA Private Pilot Ground School as an AE activity (I have an IGI/AGI) for the local squadron and will actually fly my first orientation rides next month.

Was a LtCol until completing all of the senior training that needed commissioned officer rank (will shortly add the silver star to my GRW) and then reverted back to my enlisted rank equivalency.

All of that has reinforced - for me - that without viable squadrons, there is no need for higher squadrons.  I think - personally - that Group / Wing / Regional / NHQ personnel should be required to also work with a local squadron so they can see the effects some of their policies have.

[Hawk200]

My single biggest peeve in the program is the "I had to figure it out, so I'm not telling you..." attitude.

Unfortunately, that's not unique to CAP or the military. People don't seem to realize you can give away knowledge, and still have it. Being stingy with knowledge is still one of the ultimate selfish things a person can do. "Knowledge is power" doesn't cut it when it's your friends, co-workers and colleagues.

[mikeylikey]

Perhaps this is off topic, but is there a way to advance down the ladder?  I find that too many people bother me when in a position of any kind of authority.  Perhaps we can invent a way to move back down but retain all the benefits of being on top??

[dwb]

Just get burned out... people will leave you alone and let you do whatever you want until you decompress.

Trust me. 

[afgeo4]

Perhaps this is off topic, but is there a way to advance down the ladder?  I find that too many people bother me when in a position of any kind of authority.  Perhaps we can invent a way to move back down but retain all the benefits of being on top??

The benefits come with the responsibility.

[Major Carrales]

Perhaps this is off topic, but is there a way to advance down the ladder?  I find that too many people bother me when in a position of any kind of authority.  Perhaps we can invent a way to move back down but retain all the benefits of being on top??

The benefits come with the responsibility.

True...but a good commander delegates the workload.  And a good unit accepts it and makes it work.

A unit has got to exist as just that, a unit.  A commander should be able to say, "Alright Captain, take this by the horns and make it yours...we'll all help you."

Then that Captain makes it happen with support from above and from below.

And the benefits come with the responsibility, for it is utlimately the "Commander's baby" if it fails.

[Major_Chuck]

Joined in 1991 and within a few months found myself as Deputy Squadron Commander.  Six months later I was squadron commander and did that role for seven years.

Laid very low for four years before stepping up to the plate as Wing Supply Officer and then Wing Logistics Officer.  Additional Duty as Wing Health Services Officer.

Moved up to Region Staff as Region Director of Personnel and Administration before shifting over to Region Director of Safety.

Became really tired of the politics at Region and NHQ and started my downward climb to Wing as Director of Profesional Development and then to Squadron as just an advisor to the commander.

[ZigZag911]

3 years as a cadet (finishing as C/Capt)

Then senior:

1 1/2 years squadron staff

5 years group staff

8 years squadron DCS & DCC

10 years wing staff

10 years group staff again, including a long stint as Group CC

Now I'm back on wing in a training capacity

[SAR-EMT1]

I know its been a while since this was posted on, but I just made Group Admin within the last thirty days.

Ive got Senior in Personnel, Tech in Admin and Cadets.
I have been and remain at Sq doing Personnel, DCC, TCO, Admin and Professional Development.

Ill keep plodding along, will complete all the AFIADL courses I can and will promote slow to match the age expected with the grade.

Hope to end up as a SQ /CC when I hit age 25 (and will accept Captain) will go for group /CC or Wing staff when I get (30) Major. At  (35)Lt Col I want to be at Wing staff, thence to make Colonel. (at age 40) I will complete Lvl V (via AWC)

I spent two years as a cadet.
Was a FO/TFO/SFO in college and did ROTC
Been a 1st Lt since turning 21 for the reason listed above.

[dwb]

Hope to end up as a SQ /CC when I hit age 25 (and will accept Captain) will go for group /CC or Wing staff when I get (30) Major. At  (35)Lt Col I want to be at Wing staff, thence to make Colonel. (at age 40) I will complete Lvl V (via AWC)

Wow, that's quite a roadmap you've got there.  Best of luck.

I *think* you have to do ACSC before you can do AWC, but I'm not sure.  ACSC is all you need for Level V.

[Short Field]

New to CAP but the ones I have seen advancing are the ones who devote time to the unit making it better, taking the un-fun jobs, and advancing in their speciality tracks and professional development as well as advancing in ES positions.   Volunteer for everything and be someone people can count on.

For those who want to take ACSC and AWC, go ahead, but you really need to talk to someone who has done it and find out the time commitments to complete the courses.  They are not easy on purpose.  You still need to take RSC and NSC - that is where you make the contacts that will get you appointed to higher positions.  Plus they are CAP specific compared to ACSC and AWC.

[Larry Mangum]

Squadron, Admin Officer (Master Rating)
Squadron, ES Officer (Senior Rating)
Squadron, Comm Officer (Senior Rating)
Squadron, Leadership Officer
SLS
CLC
RSC
Wing Staff, Supply Officer
Wing Staff, Asst Com Director
Wing Staff, ES Director
Region Staff, IT Director and ES Training Officer
Currently Chief of Staff, Operations