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Author Topic: Dress Right Dress Clarification  (Read 4185 times)
Майор Хаткевич
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« on: February 24, 2015, 12:52:38 AM »

I'm working on a little project for Drill Tests, and decided to proof/logic read the actual test, and came across something I considered wrong/odd.


Upon checking AFMAN 36-2203 dated 20 NOVEMBER 2013, I see that what I've known/practiced is incorrect:


Quote
4.4.1.1. Normal Interval. The commands are Dress Right, DRESS and Ready, FRONT. On the command DRESS, everyone except the last airman in each element raises and extends the left arm laterally from the shoulder with snap so the arm is parallel with the ground. As the arm is raised, un-cup the hand at approximately waist level, keeping the palm down. Extend and join the fingers and place the thumb along the forefinger. At the same time as the left arm is raised, each individual (except the guide and second, third, and fourth element leaders) turns head and eyes 45 degrees to the right with snap. The leading individual of each file establishes normal interval (by taking small choppy steps and aligning with the base file) and establishes exact shoulder-tofingertip contact with the individual to the immediate right. The second, third, and fourth element leaders align themselves directly behind the person in front of them (using small choppy steps) and visually establish a 40-inch distance. As the remaining members align themselves behind the individual in front of or to the right of them, their shoulders may or may not touch the fingertips of the individual to their right. If the arm is too long, place the extended hand behind the shoulder of the individual to the left. If the arm is too short, leave it extended toward the individual to the left and parallel to the ground. Once dress, cover, interval, and distance have been established, the command Ready, FRONT will be given. On this command, airmen whose arms are up will lower their arms with snap to their sides (without slapping their sides) and re-cup their hands when their arm is at approximately waist level. As the arm is lowered, airmen whose heads are turned will return their heads to the front with snap. The body is now back to the position of attention.


The bolded-italicized portion is what I'm specifically talking about.


My understanding is that the first element leader is left out because the guide is the "righty right" for that element in line formation. Clear, got it.


Now, for most drill I've ever seen outside of encampments, there typically isn't a guide, so would the first element leader then continue looking straight ahead, or still perform the eyes right as if the guide was present?


Edit: Eyes, RIGHT, actually calls for all persons on the right flank to keep looking straight ahead, which of course is different from the Eyes Right given during a Dress Right Dress.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 12:57:42 AM by Capt Hatkevich » Logged
lordmonar
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« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2015, 01:09:22 AM »

If there is someone to your right....you look right.  If there is not....you don't.

They key is we should be drilling with a flight guide...but I understand that it is not practical.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2015, 01:50:11 AM »

If there is someone to your right....you look right.  If there is not....you don't.

They key is we should be drilling with a flight guide...but I understand that it is not practical.

Agreed. But even Drill Teams didn't use them, and the new tests don't test on guide knowledge.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2015, 01:50:57 AM »

If there is someone to your right....you look right.  If there is not....you don't.

They key is we should be drilling with a flight guide...but I understand that it is not practical.

Agreed. But even Drill Teams didn't use them, and the new tests don't test on guide knowledge.
Yep.

An oversight that needs to be fixed IMHO.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2015, 02:23:29 AM »

If there is someone to your right....you look right.  If there is not....you don't.

They key is we should be drilling with a flight guide...but I understand that it is not practical.

Agreed. But even Drill Teams didn't use them, and the new tests don't test on guide knowledge.
Yep.

An oversight that needs to be fixed IMHO.

I also concur. I know that not all encampments have flights with guidons, but for the encampments that do, that's usually the cadets' first time ever drilling with a guide. That being said, the position of guide should be implemented into the drill/knowledge tests.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2015, 02:45:56 AM »

Re-implemented.
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abdsp51
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2015, 06:27:53 AM »

Since this has been my bread and butter, for the longest time I can say that in three wings I have been in this is an issue.  D&C is done because that is how we have always done it.  No one and I mean no one on any of the cadet staffs have been able to cite or point to a sound reference for how they were taught D&C outside of that's what I was taught. 

I cringe every time I have visited a unit and observed D&C  and I really cringed when I was a TO at encampment this past year from it. 

Now we can say to much time is spent on D&C or to little time is spent on D&C and often times it is used as a filler.  I am a firm believer that if the basics are not mastered then the rest will fail. 

One of the things I have always done for the cadet staffs for units I have been a part of is they have been given copies of regs burned to a CD or emailed to them and this has included AFMAN36-2203. 

I have used videos from Youtube and capmembers to show how drill should be done.  And for the Youtube clips I always used the clips filmed by the MTI's at Lackland.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2015, 10:36:00 AM »

Back when I re-engaged after college, the whole drill test concept was new to me. As testing/leadership officer I took on the grader role for it. Found that because cadet staff never used Close/Extend March, they pencil whipped that parrt of the 3rd test....admittedly the write up in the drill manual was a bit hard to figure out, but eventually with a ROTC video, I got it, and we did some remidial training.
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coudano
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« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2015, 08:11:30 PM »

A little point of fact, eyes right/left is a command given while in column formation.  The right flank being the one marching behind the guide (4th element).  Eyes left if the column is inverted, base is still the 4th element and the guide, now on the marching left.

The fliGht doesn't have a right flank when it is in line.

You wouldn't really give eyes right in a line formation.  I don't think it is forbidden but it doesn't really have a practical application like it does while marching (in column)

Yes, the guide will often bear a guidon, even at USAF bmt...

But yes, yes, yes, if you are marching as a flight, you should definitely always be marching with a guide.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 08:14:34 PM by coudano » Logged
lordmonar
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« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2015, 09:08:38 PM »

It is also possible to give eyes left when marching in normal column formation.

You turn your eyes toward the DV you are saluting.

Also...just rechecked the reg.....it does not say anything about only calling it while in column formation.....ergo you could call it in line and inverted line formation.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 09:11:51 PM by lordmonar » Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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coudano
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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2015, 10:37:40 PM »

Quote
It is also possible to give eyes left when marching in normal column formation.

You turn your eyes toward the DV you are saluting.

Yeah, one would think, common sense applied, that in such a situation, you would put guide left, though...  making the 1st element the base...  (???)


Quote
Also...just rechecked the reg.....it does not say anything about only calling it while in column formation.....ergo you could call it in line and inverted line formation.

it says halted or marching.


See the picture of eyes right there, in figure 3.6...


that's column formation that they are standing (halted) in.


just sayin
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Brad
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2015, 06:03:30 AM »

Quote
It is also possible to give eyes left when marching in normal column formation.

You turn your eyes toward the DV you are saluting.

Yeah, one would think, common sense applied, that in such a situation, you would put guide left, though...  making the 1st element the base...  (???)


Quote
Also...just rechecked the reg.....it does not say anything about only calling it while in column formation.....ergo you could call it in line and inverted line formation.

it says halted or marching.


See the picture of eyes right there, in figure 3.6...


that's column formation that they are standing (halted) in.


just sayin

It doesn't have to because look at the definition of "flank" as given in the same publication:

Quote
Flank—The extreme right or left (troop’s right or left) side of a formation in line or in column.

Emphasis mine. So by virtue of that definition of flank it doesn't matter if the formation is in line or column.

Additionally, look at 7.15.4, which deals with review by an inspecting officer.

Quote
7.15.4. As the reviewing party approaches, each squadron or group commander (when the group is in mass formation) brings his or her unit to attention. The command Eyes, RIGHT is given. All service members execute eyes right. As soon as the reviewing officer comes into their line of vision, they follow with their eyes, turning their heads, until the reviewing officer reaches their front. At this point, the head and eyes of each person remain fixed to the front.

I have yet to see a review done in column formation aside from actually passing in review.


Back on the topic of Dress Right, Dress, bear in mind the manual was written with the expectation of always having a guide. If not, then the first element should look right to the element leader who remains looking straight ahead. That's the way I've always seen it and that's the best way to improvise when there is not a guide. If there is a guide though, obviously, the first element leader needs to remember to look right.
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Brad Lee
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2015, 07:17:14 AM »

Pretty easy rule: If you're the furthest to the right, don't move your head.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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AirAux
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« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2015, 01:16:10 PM »

To do it right, refer to FM 22-5.
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LSThiker
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« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2015, 01:42:08 PM »

To do it right, refer to FM 22-5.

No longer exists.

It became FM 3-21.5. Now it is TC 3-21.5
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abdsp51
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« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2015, 06:21:34 PM »

Gentlemen, neither of those manuals apply in this case as this is AF D&C not Army. 
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LSThiker
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« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2015, 06:41:56 PM »

Gentlemen, neither of those manuals apply in this case as this is AF D&C not Army.

Not arguing against that. 
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Mitchell 1969
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« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2015, 03:52:13 AM »

Gentlemen, neither of those manuals apply in this case as this is AF D&C not Army.

True. But the Army manual has been useful more than once to fill in a gap or to establish the original intent of what is in the Air Force version. It may not be a controlling document, but it is a good reference work.
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coudano
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« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2015, 09:46:39 AM »

It doesn't have to because look at the definition of "flank" as given in the same publication:

Quote
Flank—The extreme right or left (troop’s right or left) side of a formation in line or in column.

Emphasis mine. So by virtue of that definition of flank it doesn't matter if the formation is in line or column.

Ok i'll buy that. But then we are back at the same issue...
Suppose elements 3 and 4 in line formation have 8 airmen in them,
but elements 1 and 2 only have 7 airmen in them.

The "left flank" seems from all other references to flank dances in the regs, to be the "8th position" (even if nobody is in it, as in elements 1 and 2 above)

So shouldn't airmen in 7th positions in element 1 and 2 be looking left at eyes left, from line formation?


Quote
Additionally, look at 7.15.4, which deals with review by an inspecting officer.

Quote
7.15.4. As the reviewing party approaches, each squadron or group commander (when the group is in mass formation) brings his or her unit to attention. The command Eyes, RIGHT is given. All service members execute eyes right. As soon as the reviewing officer comes into their line of vision, they follow with their eyes, turning their heads, until the reviewing officer reaches their front. At this point, the head and eyes of each person remain fixed to the front.

Squadron/Group in mass, eh?  Mass is a type of column.

That said this doesn't exactly apply since this is not a "standard" eyes right.  Even guidon bearer and the members of the right flank turn their head and eyes here.

Quote
I have yet to see a review done in column formation aside from actually passing in review.

Yah I have yet to see a review done at all, aside from actually passing in review.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2015, 01:56:51 PM »

If there is someone to your right....you look right.  If not you don't.

Likewise is there is someone to your left you extend your arm....if not...you don't.

The book was written and the illustrations shown for the most standard drill situations.

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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Dress Right Dress Clarification
 


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