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Author Topic: Taking bets - When Will NHQ Make Pipelining Mandatory?  (Read 6241 times)
Майор Хаткевич
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« on: February 19, 2015, 02:05:11 PM »

To Preface, I would like to take my unit to a quarterly pipeline for recruiting.


A few reasons for this - Great Start, Wingman Course, synergy, "grouping" of cadets, etc.


There may be some down sides, especially with older cadets joining, but overall the ROI seems best with this model.


Why do I think NHQ will mandate pipeline recruiting? Everything they release requires a certain timeframe for new cadets to complete, with strong suggestions of using Great Start.


Try doing Great Start today with your new cadet, and again in 2-5 weeks when the next one wonders into the meeting. It's not feasible.



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Eclipse
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2015, 02:16:49 PM »

Why do I think NHQ will mandate pipeline recruiting?

Never beyond a best practice.

For better or worse CAP isn't in a position to be turning away members, especially cadets, and the average
charter-minimum unit isn't staffed for, nor recruiting at a level that supports pipelining.   When your recruiting plan
is "we hope someone notices us" there not much point to making the two that wander in looking for a bathroom
wait months to join.

In larger units with coherent annual plans, the pipeline makes a lot more sense.

There's also the non-trivial issue that cadets have an expiration date, and holding them back could reduce their
opportunities, not an issue for all, but needs to be in the conversation.  For example, what do you do with older
cadets who could still get in O-Rides before turning 18, except for being held back by a unit's pipeline schedule?

How about cadets who join with Spaatz on their mind and the pipeline delay makes that impossible?  How about the
a cadet who really needs Mitchell, but a 6-8 month join delay makes that impossible, either because of his age or
his anticipated entry date?
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2015, 02:20:32 PM »

Why do I think NHQ will mandate pipeline recruiting?

Never beyond a best practice.

For better or worse CAP isn't in a position to be turning away members, especially cadets, and the average
charter-minimum unit isn't staffed for, nor recruiting at a level that supports pipelining.   When your recruiting plan
is "we hope someone notices us" there not much point to making the two that wander in looking for a bathroom
wait months to join.

In larger units with coherent annual plans, the pipeline makes a lot more sense.

There's also the non-trivial issue that cadets have an expiration date, and holding them back could reduce their
opportunities, not an issue for all, but needs to be in the conversation.  For example, what do you do with older
cadets who could still get in O-Rides before turning 18, except for being held back by a unit's pipeline schedule?

How about cadets who join with Spaatz on their mind and the pipeline delay makes that impossible?  How about the
a cadet who really needs Mitchell, but a 6-8 month join delay makes that impossible, either because of his age or
his anticipated entry date?


Quarterly = less than 3 month delay.


Exceptions can be made, EXCEPT there's a A LOT of MANDATORY Training that has to be done in either a group setting or in a certain timeframe to be done.


Lots of good reasons, but lets face it, missed opportunities are just that. If you joined 3 months before turning 18, yea, you're probably going to miss out on some o-flights. As to "Spaatz" timing, there's no guarantee that 38 months is how fast you'll get there (and typically, those who join for the goal and not the journey, don't).
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Ned
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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2015, 02:28:06 PM »



Why do I think NHQ will mandate pipeline recruiting?

We have no plans to do so.  As in "no plans whatsoever."  We have neither discussed such a thing, or suggested anything like that to the command group.

And if we should begin to consider mandating it, we would open a discussion with the field before taking any actions.  We have a pretty good track record of consulting with the line folks.  Look at all the drafts we went through with the latest versions of the 52-10 and 52-16.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Officer
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2015, 02:33:01 PM »



Why do I think NHQ will mandate pipeline recruiting?

We have no plans to do so.  As in "no plans whatsoever."  We have neither discussed such a thing, or suggested anything like that to the command group.

And if we should begin to consider mandating it, we would open a discussion with the field before taking any actions.  We have a pretty good track record of consulting with the line folks.  Look at all the drafts we went through with the latest versions of the 52-10 and 52-16.

Ned Lee
National Cadet Programs Officer


Does "No Plants whatsoever" work with a relatively strong push towards that anyway?


I'm not complaining, but I'm sure some who may not believe it to be a better way would see the "doom and gloom" based on how everything is being bunched up. You simply can't run a Cadet Great Start with trickle in. You'd need permanent staff doing it every week.
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lordmonar
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« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2015, 03:10:44 PM »

How could the force compliance? 
Also pipeline is not needed for small units.  A pipe line cohort of two seems kind of silly   
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2015, 03:35:44 PM »

How could the force compliance? 


That can't possibly be a real question? IF they were to do it, either a "lock out" on applications until X-Y window, or simply looking at cadet sign up dates.


[/size]
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Also pipeline is not needed for small units.  A pipe line cohort of two seems kind of silly



Agreed, but what the unit is doing now isn't helping either. Chances are, they aren't doing what they need to anyway.
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a2capt
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« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2015, 04:47:29 PM »

..and that means that each further promotion is also in that pipeline.

Sorry, no- I hate to turn away someone that's interested making it sound like we don't have time for them.

If this were compulsory service, that would be one thing. The way you get to the Yellow Footprints.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2015, 05:01:40 PM »

..and that means that each further promotion is also in that pipeline.

Sorry, no- I hate to turn away someone that's interested making it sound like we don't have time for them.

If this were compulsory service, that would be one thing. The way you get to the Yellow Footprints.


The whole point of pipelining is to show them the right amount of attention, and getting everything done. If they can't wait ~2 months, what are the odds they will stick around?
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Eclipse
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« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2015, 05:18:26 PM »

The way it's done by most units today, members wander in, wander around, have no place with a larger class, or for that matter "peers"
to judge themselves against or work together with, and then we wonder why there is such confusion as to how to run the program
and what new members need to do.

In a more perfect world, all new cadets (and preferably members) would be pipelined at the same time every year, probably corresponding with
either the end ot, or beginning of the "normal" school year (Spring / Fall).  That wold create a national "class" each year, and make progress or failure much easier to
track (including unit performance.

Further into that more perfect world, Curry Camps would be held for that class each year at the wing level for BCT in a standardized way.
No confusion over rules, regs, and policies when the wing is doing the training (at least it's consistent through out the wing).

Imagine how quickly home-grown nonsense would die if each year the new cadets are all trained the same way!

You could have one school for cadets, and one for seniors - perhaps a combo L1 / SLS weekend.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2015, 05:20:54 PM »

The way it's done by most units today, members wander in, wander around, have no place with a larger class, or for that matter "peers"
to judge themselves against or work together with, and then we wonder why there is such confusion as to how to run the program
and what new members need to do.

In a more perfect world, all new cadets (and preferably members) would be pipelined at the same time every year, probably corresponding with
either the end ot, or beginning of the "normal" school year (Spring / Fall).  That wold create a national "class" each year, and make progress or failure much easier to
track (including unit performance.

Further into that more perfect world, Curry Camps would be held for that class each year at the wing level for BCT in a standardized way.
No confusion over rules, regs, and policies when the wing is doing the training (at least it's consistent through out the wing).

Imagine how quickly home-grown nonsense would die if each year the new cadets are all trained the same way!

You could have one school for cadets, and one for seniors - perhaps a combo L1 / SLS weekend.


Stealing my plans and thunder!
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NIN
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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2015, 05:23:37 PM »

You guys are 12-13 years late :)
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2015, 05:42:12 PM »

You guys are 12-13 years late :)

I was reluctant on the idea years back when you first started discussing it, but have come around since, however unfortunately
the comments against it are salient as well, and most units don't have the manpower to pipeline effectively.

Getting the organization to that point would be a multi-year process.
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2015, 05:46:08 PM »

You guys are 12-13 years late :)

My vision is to do what eclipse detailed, on a group scale. Both, for cadets and SMs.
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1st Lt Thompson
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« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2015, 12:01:39 AM »

Tonight's meeting was cancelled due to weather, so our new R&R officer invited me over to dinner with him and his wife, and look over a 2 year recruiting plan he's working on to present to the commander. A few weeks back, I had discussed this concept with him, after reading some of NIN's comments on another thread, so we discussed a bit more in detail tonight.

One of his thoughts was: Can we come up with something for the trickle cadets while they're waiting for the next Great Start Flight to start up? His example was the Military. Obviously, Basic Training units are pipelined, but in the mean time, recruits are placed in the Delayed Entry Program. They attend monthly meetings where they do limited training and activities to keep them interested until Uncle Sam calls them up. With the trickle in Cadets, would it be advantageous to still bring them in, and have them observe meetings with limited participation until their Great Start Flight starts up?

We currently have a policy that new members attend 3 meetings before being given the application. Could we allow trickle members to observe 3 meetings, fill out their paperwork and join, so that they start their GSF as members with CAPID's? This would give the added benefit that they would start actual training as actual members, covered under Corporate Insurance should they injury themselves during training.

If we pipeline on a quarterly basis, this would give the GS Flight 2 months to earn Curry, and then a month to become acclimated into the regular flights. Also gives a month to do recruiting drives and open houses in support of the next GSF, and gives the cadets in charge of training a month off to focus on their own training and development.

For all of those in favor of pipelining, how would you present it to a Squadron for the first time?
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1st Lt Matt Thompson
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MIKE
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« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2015, 12:55:30 AM »

You can't have prospective cadets hanging around for months in some kind of "trial program non-member limbo."
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Mike Johnston
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« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2015, 12:57:39 AM »

The issue with what you're proposing it that it requires a completely separate cadet and senior staff to
pull off, and then the question will be raised as to why these cadets who are attending meetings can't
simply progress?  "I mean we're here, right?"

I say this because a unit doing the above would have the "normal" cadre - full on cadets engaged actively,
the Tango Flight - the slick sleeves finding their way, and both of those are already full time jobs. So now
you need additional personnel to herd the cats of "sorta" cadets.

If you're on a quarterly schedule, there won't be a lot of empty time anyway - the "three meetings"
take up the first month.  The waiting to be a member takes a few weeks, and in that third month
the new cadet can put together uniform parts, take care of the online setup, review the new cadet materials,
and generally prepare themselves for "reporting for basic". 

This also presupposes a full quarter, which won't always be the case, depending on when the initial contacts are made.

Now, in might be a good idea to have the Tango CF and Tango Senior(s) be points of contact for questions and
assistance in getting prepared, in the same way as a recruiter gets new recruits ready.

(also what Mike snuck in above while I was typing)
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1st Lt Thompson
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« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2015, 01:46:41 AM »

You can't have prospective cadets hanging around for months in some kind of "trial program non-member limbo."

True, just trying to come up with a compromise before it gets presented at a meeting. Do you normally have cadets participate in their first 3 weeks, or sit and watch? If so, do you have them sit and watch for 3, give them the paperwork, then have them report on a certain day to their great start flight? That's kind of what I was getting at....either way they are a member when they actually start their training.
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1st Lt Matt Thompson
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« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2015, 07:33:00 AM »

You guys are 12-13 years late :)

My vision is to do what eclipse detailed, on a group scale. Both, for cadets and SMs.

I've been mulling this over in my head since yesterday, so standby for more :)

Pipelining is something that works very well for units that do it and integrate it into their institutional fiber.  That said, there are some units that it really won't make sense for, and just like mandating that my unit do trickle-in, it may not make sense to have those units do pipelining.  There are a number of factors that go into whether a unit can pipeline successfully: schedule, location, available and willing members, etc.  I used to be quite the "everybody should do this, period!" kind of guy. Now? Not as much.

Frankly,  the largest barrier to implementing pipelining is personnel. And I don't mean number of personnel, or even qualifications. I mean the attitude of your personnel.

If implementing pipelining is such an obstacle and is met with resistance ("Why do we have to do this?" or "We don't have enough people to do this!") it will likely not gain traction over the traditional way of doing things and will fail quickly.  You will literally have people who cannot "get with the program," and part of running a unit with a solid pipelining method is that everybody understands the method and the situation, and even if they don't agree with it, will at least support it.   It takes 12 months to do pipelining correctly and get it integrated into the unit. 

I can tell you about all the units who started to try to replicate my unit's twice annual open house program and they'd say to me "It didn't work" after they did it once.

Come to find out, they weren't following all the steps or doing all the things they needed to do, they were just cherry picking. 

So they'd schedule an open house, but wouldn't bother to advertise it, or encourage people to attend.   

Or they'd go to all this trouble to setup grand displays or lay out their meeting location for an open house, and then they wouldn't have a program for the evening.  People would show up and they'd see a bunch of people standing around.   

I'd get these complaints from other commanders: "Nobody showed up." 

I'd say "did you contact the newspapers? Calendar item?  Maybe an article?"

"No." 

"Did you put something on your website or Facebook?"

"No."

"Did you print off 300 flyers and distribute them to your cadets to hand out?"

"No." 

"So how did you exactly expect people to know about your event?" 

"Well, we told the cadets to tell their friends."

Or they'd get a lot of people to show up, but nobody would join. Thats evidence that your advertising campaign is working, but what your unit is doing, the picture that you're showing prospective members at that event, is not compelling enough to make them want to join.

It took a long time for units in my wing to figure out that yes, we were not just going out and rounding up flocks of teenagers and putting them in BDUs, that we actually had a plan and a method to get them in the door, tell them about CAP, get them into the program in an organized way, etc.  AND, once we had them, had things for them to do and participate in.  And now, nearly every unit in the wing does 2x a year open houses (note: they are still not always effective, I'm finding)

A major paradigm shift (moving from a trickle-in model to a pipeline model qualifies) takes a lot of buy in and agreement from everybody, and you have to really go for it when you do it. You can't just do one tiny aspect of it and then give up immediately when you don't see the result or benefit.

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Tim Day
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Virginia Wing Civil Air Patrol
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2015, 09:20:03 AM »

We divide the Great Start curriculum into about 8 weeks, assign instructors, and run it in a continuous loop. If a cadet doesn't earn Curry within 8 weeks, they just roll into the next loop. It's a good, grade-appropriate training experience for our pre-Earhart cadet officers. If I had a small unit with no Earhart cadets, I would prefer to have a Great Start Flight Commander over having a Cadet Commander.

 
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Tim Day
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1st Lt Thompson
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« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2015, 09:22:57 AM »

We divide the Great Start curriculum into about 8 weeks, assign instructors, and run it in a continuous loop. If a cadet doesn't earn Curry within 8 weeks, they just roll into the next loop. It's a good, grade-appropriate training experience for our pre-Earhart cadet officers. If I had a small unit with no Earhart cadets, I would prefer to have a Great Start Flight Commander over having a Cadet Commander.

That's a good way to handle the trickle in cadets until the unit can fully implement a pipelining plan.
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1st Lt Matt Thompson
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« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2015, 10:46:25 AM »


You can't have prospective cadets hanging around for months in some kind of "trial program non-member limbo."

True, just trying to come up with a compromise before it gets presented at a meeting. Do you normally have cadets participate in their first 3 weeks, or sit and watch? If so, do you have them sit and watch for 3, give them the paperwork, then have them report on a certain day to their great start flight? That's kind of what I was getting at....either way they are a member when they actually start their training.

The current regulation doesn't allow for cadets to participate in meetings without joining beyond 30 days.

Quote from: CAPR 39-2, Para. 2-2h
Prospective cadets may not explore CAP without joining for longer than 30 days.

Any prospective cadet can participate, within the limitations set in CAPR 39-2, in cadet activities during their 3 visits trial period. If you plan to do pipelining, having prospective cadets sit around for a month just observing is not the way to go.

Pipelining has its advantages, but as many have pointed out, it's not without its challenges. Most small units don't have the necessary manpower to pull it off. And if your unit is small, you really can't afford to turn prospective members away.
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Tim Day
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Virginia Wing Civil Air Patrol
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2015, 10:57:04 AM »

We divide the Great Start curriculum into about 8 weeks, assign instructors, and run it in a continuous loop. If a cadet doesn't earn Curry within 8 weeks, they just roll into the next loop. It's a good, grade-appropriate training experience for our pre-Earhart cadet officers. If I had a small unit with no Earhart cadets, I would prefer to have a Great Start Flight Commander over having a Cadet Commander.

That's a good way to handle the trickle in cadets until the unit can fully implement a pipelining plan.

We're at 80+ cadets, with regular attendance over 70%. Two years ago, prior to implementing this system, we were hanging out at 50 cadets, with a well-under 50% attendance rate. We have no plans to implement a pipelining system where we tell prospective cadets to wait 3 months to join.
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Tim Day
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1st Lt Thompson
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« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2015, 11:50:39 AM »


You can't have prospective cadets hanging around for months in some kind of "trial program non-member limbo."

True, just trying to come up with a compromise before it gets presented at a meeting. Do you normally have cadets participate in their first 3 weeks, or sit and watch? If so, do you have them sit and watch for 3, give them the paperwork, then have them report on a certain day to their great start flight? That's kind of what I was getting at....either way they are a member when they actually start their training.



The current regulation doesn't allow for cadets to participate in meetings without joining beyond 30 days.

Quote from: CAPR 39-2, Para. 2-2h
Prospective cadets may not explore CAP without joining for longer than 30 days.

Any prospective cadet can participate, within the limitations set in CAPR 39-2, in cadet activities during their 3 visits trial period. If you plan to do pipelining, having prospective cadets sit around for a month just observing is not the way to go.

Pipelining has its advantages, but as many have pointed out, it's not without its challenges. Most small units don't have the necessary manpower to pull it off. And if your unit is small, you really can't afford to turn prospective members away.

Thanks for the input. At this point nothing has been discussed at the Squadron, other than that we need to implement the GS program. Our new R&R officer was trying to come up with a 2 year recruiting plan to present at an upcoming meeting, and was trying to get input and come up with a few different possible scenarios to present.

His 2 year draft was quite impressive, but required very tight scheduling for CP, as well as ES training, both internal and external AE, as well as with our PAO and Historian efforts. With a plan involving such tight scheduling, a pipelining plan would work out best, but I agree about not turning away prospects. I think the idea of an 8 week rotation might work best in this instance.
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1st Lt Matt Thompson
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« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2015, 02:49:25 PM »

Every unit should have a long term recruiting plan, which should be developed in coordination with all affected staff functions. Your Recruiting Officer is on the right track.
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NIN
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« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2015, 04:19:47 PM »

Frankly,  the largest barrier to implementing pipelining is personnel. And I don't mean number of personnel, or even qualifications. I mean the attitude of your personnel.

If implementing pipelining is such an obstacle and is met with resistance ("Why do we have to do this?" or "We don't have enough people to do this!") it will likely not gain traction over the traditional way of doing things and will fail quickly.  You will literally have people who cannot "get with the program," and part of running a unit with a solid pipelining method is that everybody understands the method and the situation, and even if they don't agree with it, will at least support it.   It takes 12 months to do pipelining correctly and get it integrated into the unit. 

<snip>

A major paradigm shift (moving from a trickle-in model to a pipeline model qualifies) takes a lot of buy in and agreement from everybody, and you have to really go for it when you do it. You can't just do one tiny aspect of it and then give up immediately when you don't see the result or benefit.

I am not a big fan of quoting myself, but I will here to expand on a theme.

Let me reiterate: embracing pipeline recruiting methods is a HUGE paradigm shift for units. HUGE. 

Civil Air Patrol has essentially been doing trickle-in recruiting since.. well, probably "forever" (yes, someone said "CAP did pipelining in the 1940s!" but "forever" in this context, for  everybody who is currently a member, means pretty much "since you joined CAP." For the majority of our membership that means "not very long, really.")  So pretty much 99.5% of the membership in CAP has never had exposure to pipelining.

By way of some back story: My unit was doing trickle-in when I took over in November of 1999.  12 cadets active, 3 seniors.  (more on the books, but that was who was showing up).  Immediately we took to building a solid, repeatable schedule and recruiting people. 

We continued to trickle-in thru the end of 1999 and all thru 2000 with some "open house" recruiting events.  I had done these at my unit in MI Wing back in the late 1990s and they worked great.   So we started doing "dog & pony" shows as a way to increase interest and get a little awareness going.

I think we had an open house in August that netted us a new cadet.  Then we had a couple more join in September, a couple in October and a couple in November.  We had a cadet officer and a cadet NCO doing introductory training, and they were having a heck of a time keeping track of these cadets at all different levels of training.  We were still pretty light on leadership bodies, so things were falling thru the cracks.  My DCC wasn't exactly Johnny on the Spot about this.

I realized we had a problem when along about the middle of December, I'm promoting 1 or 2 of the cadets who had come in during October or November and had already taken and passed their Curry tests, and the cadet from August comes to me in tears because he's "still in basic training," for some reason hasn't taken his Curry or been promoted (see the aforementioned "falling thru the cracks"), and cadets who came in after him were all getting promoted.

We were having a difficult time with these cadets all being "at a different point" in their training versus one another depending on when they'd joined, how many meetings they'd been to, how they grasped the material, how much attention the NCO or cadet officers were paying to them, etc.  Some were a little older, didn't need spoon feeding, grasped the material quickly and took their Curry 4-5 weeks after their join date. Others were not so adept, but really, we should have caught that sooner.

We had a unit open house scheduled for the end of January, which was only about a month away. I told my DCC "Look, anybody comes in now, lets just give them the nickel tour and send them on their way with a flyer for the open house."

"But, but... you can't do that!" he said.

"What do you mean? Its a month out.  I'm just saying we don't need anybody else joining right now.  If they come in, we say 'Hey, thanks for visiting, here's what we do, etc, etc, and oh, hey, by the way we're having a big recruiting thing in three weeks, come join us then for punch & cookies and the Powerpoint Presentation From Hell and you can join then!"

"yeah, but what if they don't come back!?"

"If they don't come back in three weeks, do you really think they were that interested in joining CAP?"

"yeah, but.. but.. you know, we can't exactly afford to turn people away!"

"I'm not turning people away, I'm telling them to come visit us in three weeks when we start training new people again, or something."

"This is going to fail miserably!" he predicted.

I don't precisely remember how many cadets we recruited out of that one open house, but we got 8 or 10, I seem to think.

But then we discovered that since we didn't really "pipeline" yet, we were still getting cadets "trickling in" for weeks afterwards.  So yeah, we got 8 or 10 new cadets, but over a period of a month or more. Which meant that nearly every week the personnel officer was doing new member applications, the membership board was meeting with new people, the commander (me!) was having to process these CAPF 15s, and the BCT cadets were having to do their "introductory training" several times over the course of 4 or 5 weeks.  So, really, we didn't fix our previous problem of having multiple cadets on different training levels, because again they'd all joined at different times and none had really all been there the same amount of time.

Right back to square one on that part.   Whoops.

We spent the next year or so refining the process and didn't actually land on our whole current pipelining process (Open House -> Inprocessing Night -> cohort-based BCT) until 2001 or so.

« Last Edit: February 20, 2015, 05:09:28 PM by NIN » Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,873
Unit: of issue

« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2015, 04:47:11 PM »

We divide the Great Start curriculum into about 8 weeks, assign instructors, and run it in a continuous loop. If a cadet doesn't earn Curry within 8 weeks, they just roll into the next loop. It's a good, grade-appropriate training experience for our pre-Earhart cadet officers. If I had a small unit with no Earhart cadets, I would prefer to have a Great Start Flight Commander over having a Cadet Commander.

I really want to get my people to embrace Great Start, but thats a paradigm shift I'm not easy (like I mentioned in my prior post). Even I'm not 100% sold on Great Start, but I'd love to see how you do this program, cuz I think it might be a good "hybrid" between our 8-10 week BCT cycle and Great Start. :)
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,072
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2015, 05:01:56 PM »

We divide the Great Start curriculum into about 8 weeks, assign instructors, and run it in a continuous loop. If a cadet doesn't earn Curry within 8 weeks, they just roll into the next loop. It's a good, grade-appropriate training experience for our pre-Earhart cadet officers. If I had a small unit with no Earhart cadets, I would prefer to have a Great Start Flight Commander over having a Cadet Commander.

I really want to get my people to embrace Great Start, but thats a paradigm shift I'm not easy (like I mentioned in my prior post). Even I'm not 100% sold on Great Start, but I'd love to see how you do this program, cuz I think it might be a good "hybrid" between our 8-10 week BCT cycle and Great Start. :)


Sold or not, it's a requirement for Senior rating in CP. :)
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NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,873
Unit: of issue

« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2015, 05:08:03 PM »

Sold or not, it's a requirement for Senior rating in CP. :)

Son, I got my master rating in CP before you were born

</get off my lawn>

BTW, having tried the Group BCT thing circa 1990, I will tell you that you're going to experience problems.

;)

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2017 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,072
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2015, 05:24:46 PM »

Sold or not, it's a requirement for Senior rating in CP. :)

Son, I got my master rating in CP before you were born

</get off my lawn>

BTW, having tried the Group BCT thing circa 1990, I will tell you that you're going to experience problems.

 ;)


Yea, I'm sure (you're THAT old? Sheesh  >:D ). But the current reality is that you need GS for Senior.


As to the Group pipeline, I'm sure we will, if we get to that stage.
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Tim Day
Seasoned Member

Posts: 257
Unit: MER-VA-102

Virginia Wing Civil Air Patrol
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2015, 04:39:54 PM »

We divide the Great Start curriculum into about 8 weeks, assign instructors, and run it in a continuous loop. If a cadet doesn't earn Curry within 8 weeks, they just roll into the next loop. It's a good, grade-appropriate training experience for our pre-Earhart cadet officers. If I had a small unit with no Earhart cadets, I would prefer to have a Great Start Flight Commander over having a Cadet Commander.

I really want to get my people to embrace Great Start, but thats a paradigm shift I'm not easy (like I mentioned in my prior post). Even I'm not 100% sold on Great Start, but I'd love to see how you do this program, cuz I think it might be a good "hybrid" between our 8-10 week BCT cycle and Great Start. :)

We just assign all new cadets to a "Great Start" Flight. The flight commander and flight sergeant are responsible for conducting the training (or arranging for instructors) in the Great Start pamphlet, as well as mentoring the new cadets and ensuring requirements get properly recorded. We've actually assigned a couple of additional NCOs as element leaders who are considered part of Great Start cadre.

It doesn't hurt to measure the "dwell" time of new cadets from first visit to Curry award.

I can see pipelining working well for some units and not so well for others. This hybrid model works for us.
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Tim Day
Lt Col CAP
Virginia Wing Encampment Commander
Prince William Composite Squadron Commander
Майор Хаткевич
200,000th Post Author
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 6,072
Unit: GLR-IL-049

« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2015, 04:55:58 PM »

We divide the Great Start curriculum into about 8 weeks, assign instructors, and run it in a continuous loop. If a cadet doesn't earn Curry within 8 weeks, they just roll into the next loop. It's a good, grade-appropriate training experience for our pre-Earhart cadet officers. If I had a small unit with no Earhart cadets, I would prefer to have a Great Start Flight Commander over having a Cadet Commander.

I really want to get my people to embrace Great Start, but thats a paradigm shift I'm not easy (like I mentioned in my prior post). Even I'm not 100% sold on Great Start, but I'd love to see how you do this program, cuz I think it might be a good "hybrid" between our 8-10 week BCT cycle and Great Start. :)

We just assign all new cadets to a "Great Start" Flight. The flight commander and flight sergeant are responsible for conducting the training (or arranging for instructors) in the Great Start pamphlet, as well as mentoring the new cadets and ensuring requirements get properly recorded. We've actually assigned a couple of additional NCOs as element leaders who are considered part of Great Start cadre.

It doesn't hurt to measure the "dwell" time of new cadets from first visit to Curry award.

I can see pipelining working well for some units and not so well for others. This hybrid model works for us.


The "Dwell" time is minimal. NHQ wants cadets in an airplane and a C/Amn within 2 months.
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CAP Talk  |  Cadet Programs  |  Cadet Programs Management & Activities  |  Topic: Taking bets - When Will NHQ Make Pipelining Mandatory?
 


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