Commander's Commendation

[AirDX]

I got another CommComm yesterday, so I have two from the wing and one from the region.  What do I wear on the ribbon, two triangle devices signifying three awards, plus the bronze star denoting the level of one of them, OR one triangle device for the second award and the bronze star denoting both the level of the award and the third award?  I think its the former, but I'm not entirely sure.

[AlphaSigOU]

Wear the ribbon with the two bronze clasps; then add the bronze star to your left. (I now hafta deal with two Com Coms and one National Com Com.) You only get to wear one bronze or silver star commendation on the ribbon.

[Eclipse]

McChord agrees:

[Storm Chaser]

+1

In the event of multiple awards, the bronze or silver star is placed on the ribbon to the wearer's right of any clasps for multiple awards at any level. Only one bronze or silver star (one star of each type) will be worn.

[lordmonar]

We got to change the rules on this......it should not matter from what level you got the commendation.  If it just comendation level work....it should not matter if God or your just your squadron commander signed the F120....it is the same ribbon.

[Eclipse]

We got to change the rules on this......it should not matter from what level you got the commendation.  If it just comendation level work....it should not matter if God or your just your squadron commander signed the F120....it is the same ribbon.

Agreed, and to further compound things, scope is ignored on a regular basis for expediency, which means
you really have no idea what kind of impact a given commendable activity had anyway.

[arajca]

We got to change the rules on this......it should not matter from what level you got the commendation.  If it just comendation level work....it should not matter if God or your just your squadron commander signed the F120....it is the same ribbon.

You mean change it back to the way it was before HWSNBN?

[PHall]

We got to change the rules on this......it should not matter from what level you got the commendation.  If it just comendation level work....it should not matter if God or your just your squadron commander signed the F120....it is the same ribbon.

You mean change it back to the way it was before HWSNBN?

Ah yep!

[Private Investigator]

McChord agrees:

According to McChord you can have both the silver and bronze stars noting a National and Regional CommComms.

[AirDX]

Thanks!

[JC004]

Just wear a silver star attachment, then a bronze "Etc." attachment.  Simple approach.

[LATORRECA]

We got to change the rules on this......it should not matter from what level you got the commendation.  If it just comendation level work....it should not matter if God or your just your squadron commander signed the F120....it is the same ribbon.

Just like in the services. It doesn't matter what level it given, it's the same award.

[flyboy53]

We got to change the rules on this......it should not matter from what level you got the commendation.  If it just comendation level work....it should not matter if God or your just your squadron commander signed the F120....it is the same ribbon.

Just like in the services. It doesn't matter what level it given, it's the same award.

Especially since the approval level of a Region or National Commander warrants such a higher level of award, and also means that those higher levels of awards are strictly political.

[Private Investigator]

We got to change the rules on this......it should not matter from what level you got the commendation.  If it just comendation level work....it should not matter if God or your just your squadron commander signed the F120....it is the same ribbon.

Just like in the services. It doesn't matter what level it given, it's the same award.

Especially since the approval level of a Region or National Commander warrants such a higher level of award, and also means that those higher levels of awards are strictly political.

Not neccessarily. When the Achievement Award was created and the approval level was the Group Commander. The Group next to ours awarded fifty (50+) plus AAs the first week. So at what level does your politics start?    

[flyboy53]

We got to change the rules on this......it should not matter from what level you got the commendation.  If it just comendation level work....it should not matter if God or your just your squadron commander signed the F120....it is the same ribbon.

Just like in the services. It doesn't matter what level it given, it's the same award.

Especially since the approval level of a Region or National Commander warrants such a higher level of award, and also means that those higher levels of awards are strictly political.

Not neccessarily. When the Achievement Award was created and the approval level was the Group Commander. The Group next to ours awarded fifty (50+) plus AAs the first week. So at what level does your politics start?   

Same issue, different level of command. If an award is given at the level of command of a national commander or region commander, it must have been an act of meritorious service, achievement or what ever that had the scale or impact that caught the attention of the commander at that level, so why just give a commendation award?

At the core of the issue with this thread is the fact that we are all volunteers sans the NHQ staff and like volunteer fire fighters, EMTs and police officers (there are some) you develop recognition programs in order to encourage participation and foster morale. However, you end up with "carrot awards" like five different training ribbons and develop a new one every time someone decides we need a new one. You end up with mass awards of ribbons because of politics and commanders just trying to keep the morale at a functional level.

In the grand scheme of things, I'm just another member with an opinion that doesn't really count, but once you start adding devices to reflect a level of approval authority, you start a complex mess that ultimately waters down the meaning of the award. We have awards like Exceptional Service and Meritorious Service for such commanders not stars on ribbons.

On the Air Force side, things like achievement awards and commendation awards are meant for junior officers and airmen -- or at least nobody above the grade of colonel. Although I have seen the same political process, there are those rare incidents where a junior airman or officer does something that warrants something like a Meritorious Service Medal and the citations in those incidents are amazing. Why can't we do the same.

When I joined the Air Force, the common award for meritorious service or achievement for non-aircrews was a Commendation Medal. Award was rare. Then the Meritorious Service Medal was created. I actually worked for the major who got the first one in the Air Force. He was the PAO who escorted the POWs back from Vietnam. Then someone decided that medals would mean promotion points in WAPS testing or necessary parts of APRs and OERs. Long about 1979-80 the two medals became so common that there was a scandal/investigation where too many MSMs were being given to airmen in commands like SAC and the U.S. Air Force Security Service/Electronic Security Command.

Over the years I, too, have seen them awarded politically to people that I never considered merited it, but that sounds too much like sour grapes and that's not my intent -- especially when I met one of the SAC senior airmen who earned an MSM. What he did to earn the medal -- entering a launch silo to fix an out of control Hydrazine leak on a nuclear armed Titan missile -- defines the meaning of meritorious service and is a small token for the sacrifice of what he did.

That is why the CAP program needs a serious overhaul. Let's stop the carrot approach and instead of a national commander generating a junior-level award signified by a star for the level of the approval authority, give the person something really meaningful if the merit warrants it.

At the very least, its just a commendation award, take the star off. This tread started with an individual asking what to wear on his ribbon. I didn't commend him for his achievement -- which is very warranted -- I just don't think the device is necessary.

[Private Investigator]

flyboy53, I see your POV and I agree with you.

The awards program in CAP varies greatly by which Wing you are in and then who the Wing King/Queen is at the moment. Some are generous and others are not into the bling bling. 

[PHall]

Well, our current National Commander seems to be willing to take a fresh look at things and update where required.
Maybe it's time for a top to bottom review of the CAP Awards and Decorations program.

[MSG Mac]

flyboy53, I see your POV and I agree with you.

The awards program in CAP varies greatly by which Wing you are in and then who the Wing King/Queen is at the moment. Some are generous and others are not into the bling bling. 

As a former Wing DP, I saw the problem as  squadrons not submitting awards for their members. In a Wing with 30 units, it was a struggle to get more than 5 or 6 nominations for the "of the Year" awards. You can't complain about the dearth of awards, when you're not putting people in for them.

[Alaric]

Well, our current National Commander seems to be willing to take a fresh look at things and update where required.
Maybe it's time for a top to bottom review of the CAP Awards and Decorations program.

Because that's where he should be spending his time, not worrying about silly things like making sure we remain operationally relevant; making sure the task guides get updated (as they are all 8+ years old); enhancing our relationship with the Air Force and other relevant government agencies.  Nope definitely a top to bottom review of CAP Awards and Decorations that's a top priority

[Eclipse]

Well, our current National Commander seems to be willing to take a fresh look at things and update where required.
Maybe it's time for a top to bottom review of the CAP Awards and Decorations program.

Because that's where he should be spending his time, not worrying about silly things like making sure we remain operationally relevant; making sure the task guides get updated (as they are all 8+ years old); enhancing our relationship with the Air Force and other relevant government agencies.  Nope definitely a top to bottom review of CAP Awards and Decorations that's a top priority

That's why there are supposed to be committees assigned by NHQ, and distributed throughout organization to do the heavy lifting
of these decisions and discussions.  With 60,000^® members, there should be no detail which is too small to address.

Disclaimer: "60,000 members" is a registered trademark of Civil Air Patrol and may or may not reflect the
actual membership, readiness, or troop strength of the organization as a whole.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Well, our current National Commander seems to be willing to take a fresh look at things and update where required.
Maybe it's time for a top to bottom review of the CAP Awards and Decorations program.

Because that's where he should be spending his time, not worrying about silly things like making sure we remain operationally relevant; making sure the task guides get updated (as they are all 8+ years old); enhancing our relationship with the Air Force and other relevant government agencies.  Nope definitely a top to bottom review of CAP Awards and Decorations that's a top priority

That's why there are supposed to be committees assigned by NHQ, and distributed throughout organization to do the heavy lifting
of these decisions and discussions.  With 60,000^® members, there should be no detail which is too small to address.

Disclaimer: "60,000 members" is a registered trademark of Civil Air Patrol and may or may not reflect the
actual membership, readiness, or troop strength of the organization as a whole.

10/10, would read again.

[PHall]

Well, our current National Commander seems to be willing to take a fresh look at things and update where required.
Maybe it's time for a top to bottom review of the CAP Awards and Decorations program.

Because that's where he should be spending his time, not worrying about silly things like making sure we remain operationally relevant; making sure the task guides get updated (as they are all 8+ years old); enhancing our relationship with the Air Force and other relevant government agencies.  Nope definitely a top to bottom review of CAP Awards and Decorations that's a top priority

You have no idea how a Higher Headquarters runs, do you?  Here's a short class for you.

1. The General decides something needs to be done.
2. A Working Committee is assembled by the Chief of Staff. (usually)
3. The Committee then does what needs to be done and develops a list of reccommendations for the General.
4. The General reviews the recommendations and decides which ones, if any, they will use.

This is how the uniform manual revision was done so it's nothing new to CAP.

[lordmonar]

Well, our current National Commander seems to be willing to take a fresh look at things and update where required.
Maybe it's time for a top to bottom review of the CAP Awards and Decorations program.

Because that's where he should be spending his time, not worrying about silly things like making sure we remain operationally relevant; making sure the task guides get updated (as they are all 8+ years old); enhancing our relationship with the Air Force and other relevant government agencies.  Nope definitely a top to bottom review of CAP Awards and Decorations that's a top priority

a)  No one said it was a top priority.  b) Just because the National Commander directs his staff to do a top to bottom reg review...does not mean he is NOT looking into things that keep us operationally relevant...or that our task guides get updated....or enhancing our relationship wit the USAF et al.  c)  For someone who is concerned about CAP NHQ personnel wasting their time....you spend a lot of your time here.....Kettle....let me introduce you to Pot. 

[Alaric]

Well, our current National Commander seems to be willing to take a fresh look at things and update where required.
Maybe it's time for a top to bottom review of the CAP Awards and Decorations program.

Because that's where he should be spending his time, not worrying about silly things like making sure we remain operationally relevant; making sure the task guides get updated (as they are all 8+ years old); enhancing our relationship with the Air Force and other relevant government agencies.  Nope definitely a top to bottom review of CAP Awards and Decorations that's a top priority

a)  No one said it was a top priority.  b) Just because the National Commander directs his staff to do a top to bottom reg review...does not mean he is NOT looking into things that keep us operationally relevant...or that our task guides get updated....or enhancing our relationship wit the USAF et al.  c)  For someone who is concerned about CAP NHQ personnel wasting their time....you spend a lot of your time here.....Kettle....let me introduce you to Pot. 

The only difference of course is that I'm not National Staff nor am I paid  anytime you want to use reason and logic give me a call

[lordmonar]

Well, our current National Commander seems to be willing to take a fresh look at things and update where required.
Maybe it's time for a top to bottom review of the CAP Awards and Decorations program.

Because that's where he should be spending his time, not worrying about silly things like making sure we remain operationally relevant; making sure the task guides get updated (as they are all 8+ years old); enhancing our relationship with the Air Force and other relevant government agencies.  Nope definitely a top to bottom review of CAP Awards and Decorations that's a top priority

a)  No one said it was a top priority.  b) Just because the National Commander directs his staff to do a top to bottom reg review...does not mean he is NOT looking into things that keep us operationally relevant...or that our task guides get updated....or enhancing our relationship wit the USAF et al.  c)  For someone who is concerned about CAP NHQ personnel wasting their time....you spend a lot of your time here.....Kettle....let me introduce you to Pot. 

The only difference of course is that I'm not National Staff nor am I paid  anytime you want to use reason and logic give me a call

Why not?   They are always looking for people to staff these things.   Why have you not volunteered your expertise to address national operational relevance tot he operations staff?   That is my point.   Easy to throw stones....harder to put your money (and time) where your mouth is.

[Eclipse]

Why not?   They are always looking for people to staff these things. 

Actually, no, they aren't. "Not invented here" and all that.

[JeffDG]

Why not?   They are always looking for people to staff these things. 

Actually, no, they aren't. "Not invented here" and all that.

The Echelons Above Reality are constantly problems to which they can apply their elegant solutions.

[JeffDG]

Why not?   They are always looking for people to staff these things.   

Nope...http://capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/staffvacancies/

There are no current positions available.

[Alaric]

Well, our current National Commander seems to be willing to take a fresh look at things and update where required.
Maybe it's time for a top to bottom review of the CAP Awards and Decorations program.

Because that's where he should be spending his time, not worrying about silly things like making sure we remain operationally relevant; making sure the task guides get updated (as they are all 8+ years old); enhancing our relationship with the Air Force and other relevant government agencies.  Nope definitely a top to bottom review of CAP Awards and Decorations that's a top priority

a)  No one said it was a top priority.  b) Just because the National Commander directs his staff to do a top to bottom reg review...does not mean he is NOT looking into things that keep us operationally relevant...or that our task guides get updated....or enhancing our relationship wit the USAF et al.  c)  For someone who is concerned about CAP NHQ personnel wasting their time....you spend a lot of your time here.....Kettle....let me introduce you to Pot. 

The only difference of course is that I'm not National Staff nor am I paid  anytime you want to use reason and logic give me a call

Why not?   They are always looking for people to staff these things.   Why have you not volunteered your expertise to address national operational relevance tot he operations staff?   That is my point.   Easy to throw stones....harder to put your money (and time) where your mouth is.

As a matter of fact, if there is a volunteer position I fully intend to apply however, if you go to the site no positions open, guess they're not dying for help

http://www.capmembers.com/cap_national_hq/staffvacancies/

[lordmonar]

There are no TOP positions available.....but if you call up the director of "XYZ" and volunteer your help for project "ABC"....I'm sure that they will take you on.

[Alaric]

There are no TOP positions available.....but if you call up the director of "XYZ" and volunteer your help for project "ABC"....I'm sure that they will take you on.

I'll give that a shot

[JeffDG]

There are no TOP positions available.....but if you call up the director of "XYZ" and volunteer your help for project "ABC"....I'm sure that they will take you on.

'Cept they keep all the projects Secret Squirrel until they're done coming up with solutions to problems nobody's identified.

[James Shaw]

flyboy53, I see your POV and I agree with you.

The awards program in CAP varies greatly by which Wing you are in and then who the Wing King/Queen is at the moment. Some are generous and others are not into the bling bling. 

This is the same for the National Level as well. As a member of National Staff with the last two National Commanders there was a very distinct difference between the two. The first National Commander I served under made sure that the people that worked for her were recognized and thanked. Not only did my boss at the time put the "paperwork" in for the award but when it was "approved" and if I was not there to physically receive it, it came in the mail, received an email from the Commander and a phone call thanking me for my work.

The last Commander I served under for three years did not do that. There was a lot of work done by all members of the staff and the only one's recognized by the Commander were the directors. If there was anyone else recognized for the National Staff work other than the Director I never heard of it. My boss at the time put in several 120's for their staff and they were turned down completely. Not so much as an COA or Achievement for three years of National Level support. Even on my last stint when I changed National Staff positions there was no acknowledgement for the work, but the Directors were all recognized.

I did however get to see the National Staff Badge go from concept, to approval, and then to wear for the National Staff that qualified. 

So I have to completely agree that there is a difference in the way in which Commanders recognize the hard work and effort.

Whether you are bling or no bling, people appreciate when there work is recognized.

[Devil Doc]

That's why there are supposed to be committees assigned by NHQ, and distributed throughout organization to do the heavy lifting
of these decisions and discussions.  With 60,000^® members, there should be no detail which is too small to address.

Disclaimer: "60,000 members" is a registered trademark of Civil Air Patrol and may or may not reflect the
actual membership, readiness, or troop strength of the organization as a whole.

60,000 Members really equals to 50,000. Out of that 50,00 you have 1/3 that are active, 1/3 on CAP Talk, and 1/3 that show up for Awards Banquets only. So 16,500 Active Members Divided By 50 States+ Roughly 330 people in each state. Out of 330 Active members in each state, you have 3/4 that are cadets. so roughly 82 Senior Members in Each state.

Moderator fix: Missing tag

[Chappie]

flyboy53, I see your POV and I agree with you.

The awards program in CAP varies greatly by which Wing you are in and then who the Wing King/Queen is at the moment. Some are generous and others are not into the bling bling. 

This is the same for the National Level as well. As a member of National Staff with the last two National Commanders there was a very distinct difference between the two. The first National Commander I served under made sure that the people that worked for her were recognized and thanked. Not only did my boss at the time put the "paperwork" in for the award but when it was "approved" and if I was not there to physically receive it, it came in the mail, received an email from the Commander and a phone call thanking me for my work.

The last Commander I served under for three years did not do that. There was a lot of work done by all members of the staff and the only one's recognized by the Commander were the directors. If there was anyone else recognized for the National Staff work other than the Director I never heard of it. My boss at the time put in several 120's for their staff and they were turned down completely. Not so much as an COA or Achievement for three years of National Level support. Even on my last stint when I changed National Staff positions there was no acknowledgement for the work, but the Directors were all recognized.

I did however get to see the National Staff Badge go from concept, to approval, and then to wear for the National Staff that qualified. 

So I have to completely agree that there is a difference in the way in which Commanders recognize the hard work and effort.

Whether you are bling or no bling, people appreciate when there work is recognized.

Awards do vary from wing to wing/region to region/commander to commander.  When I was a Region Chaplain, I made sure that the Wing Chaplains were familiar with the F120 and the pamphlet "Awards Made Easy".  I remember a long-time member in my home squadron (who has since passed but his influence continues) say that those .55 ribbons (at that time) were the only pay check our volunteers receive so make sure they are taken care of.  Sound advice.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

So I have to completely agree that there is a difference in the way in which Commanders recognize the hard work and effort.

Whether you are bling or no bling, people appreciate when there work is recognized.

My cynicism is showing again...but, in MY experience, too frequently (and once is too frequently), the "recognition" goes to those who schmooze with the "right" people.  Seen it too many times.

I have had the gamut of experience with how commanders "recognise hard work and effort."

First squadron (composite)
First commander - went on to become Wing CC, then Region staff - generous with praise.
Second commander - former active duty AF (Vietnam vet) - very squared away, kind of cold and prickly, not effusive with praise but gave it when thought warranted.
Third commander - very, very good friend, big-hearted, very rarely failed to put someone in for a ribbon he thought they were due for and did not shirk submitting promotions.

Second squadron (senior)
First commander - former Marine, squared-away on that sort of thing...in fact, I would be a Major (or maybe Lt. Col.) today if he hadn't had to move due to his job.  He was in the process of initiating/endorsing when had to move.
Second commander - cared more about piloting and schmoozing with Wing buds.  That unit cared very little for PD/awards/promotions anyway.  There were a lot of "2nd Lieutenants For Life."

Third squadron (composite)
Commander very good about that sort of thing...in fact, awarded my CommComm (for being stubborn and standing up for my position) and then lost his job for supporting me.

Fourth squadron (cadet/composite)
First commander - really good about that; even when I would say that I felt bad about not being there due to health, always told me "when you ARE here you give 100%."
Second commander - didn't get to know him as he got "kicked upstairs" not long after taking command.
Third commander - nice guy, just didn't connect with him.

Present squadron (composite)
First commander - great guy, gave praise when warranted.
Second commander - seems to be conscientious but, well...I've written on here about awards/promotion issues so I'll leave it at that.

[Private Investigator]

flyboy53, I see your POV and I agree with you.

The awards program in CAP varies greatly by which Wing you are in and then who the Wing King/Queen is at the moment. Some are generous and others are not into the bling bling. 

This is the same for the National Level as well. As a member of National Staff with the last two National Commanders there was a very distinct difference between the two. The first National Commander I served under made sure that the people that worked for her were recognized and thanked. Not only did my boss at the time put the "paperwork" in for the award but when it was "approved" and if I was not there to physically receive it, it came in the mail, received an email from the Commander and a phone call thanking me for my work.

The last Commander I served under for three years did not do that. There was a lot of work done by all members of the staff and the only one's recognized by the Commander were the directors. If there was anyone else recognized for the National Staff work other than the Director I never heard of it. My boss at the time put in several 120's for their staff and they were turned down completely. Not so much as an COA or Achievement for three years of National Level support. Even on my last stint when I changed National Staff positions there was no acknowledgement for the work, but the Directors were all recognized.

I did however get to see the National Staff Badge go from concept, to approval, and then to wear for the National Staff that qualified. 

So I have to completely agree that there is a difference in the way in which Commanders recognize the hard work and effort.

Whether you are bling or no bling, people appreciate when there work is recognized.

Awards do vary from wing to wing/region to region/commander to commander.  When I was a Region Chaplain, I made sure that the Wing Chaplains were familiar with the F120 and the pamphlet "Awards Made Easy".  I remember a long-time member in my home squadron (who has since passed but his influence continues) say that those .55 ribbons (at that time) were the only pay check our volunteers receive so make sure they are taken care of.  Sound advice.

Very good point sir. The person deserves a .55 ribbon make sure they are recognized.  :clap: