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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  The Lobby  |  Topic: Exceptions to Gender-Based Grooming Standards?
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Author Topic: Exceptions to Gender-Based Grooming Standards?  (Read 20800 times)
lordmonar
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« Reply #20 on: October 20, 2014, 06:07:55 PM »

We had this issue a few months back.  The policy handed to us by NHQ is that the gender on the ID presented to the squadron is your gender and you follow the dress and appearance regs for that gender.  I know that NHQ is working on this and they will published guidance when the figure it out.
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2014, 06:18:29 PM »

How do we address members whose religions prohibit women from wearing pants? I knew some cadets with bdu skirts. Also some religions that don't allow males to cut beards or hair?
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Ned
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« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2014, 06:28:09 PM »

How do we address members whose religions prohibit women from wearing pants? I knew some cadets with bdu skirts. Also some religions that don't allow males to cut beards or hair?

See, generally, CAPR 39-1 paragraph 1.5 for guidance on requests for religious accomodations.

Ned Lee
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2014, 09:15:58 PM »

I've been aware of some of those, but as a cadet and not directly involved. So in leave the question for those with experience.
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NIN
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2014, 06:04:08 AM »

How do we address members whose religions prohibit women from wearing pants? I knew some cadets with bdu skirts. Also some religions that don't allow males to cut beards or hair?

Did you KNOW cadets with BDU skirts, or did you HEAR about it?  The number of people who swear they've seen "BDU skirts" makes it sound pretty prevalent. I've seen one world's fair, a picnic and a rodeo, and I've never seen a BDU skirt.  Its like Bigfoot, or a $1000 bill....

We have a male cadet in an adjacent squadron who is a Native American and has a religious need for the length of his hair, or something like that. He wears Blue BDUs and white/grey. While I have not seen a letter from NHQ that says "This cadet is authorized to wear this uniform in this way in deviation of CAPM39-1 for religious accommodations," but I have been told that it was coordinated thru channels. He's not in my unit, so its really no skin off my nose.  It looks a little weird (C/TSgt on BBDUs and whites & greys), but there it is. And its probably the best solution considering the circumstances, and he's a very active and participating member, so hey, solution in hand, drive on.

What generally happens is that people who have these specific prohibitions (ie. beards, pants) don't tend to gravitate toward CAP. So you get 1-2 people a year who need some accommodation.  OK.  Fine.  Adjust fire and drive on.

If I had a female cadet who couldn't wear pants for some religious reason (can anybody point me at a specific religion that disallows pants on women, BTW? I keep hearing about this religion in a very non specific way. I'd be curious to understand more.), when it came time to wear BDUs, I would probably coordinate some kind of policy exception that put her in a polo shirt & grey skirt or something like that.

Can't wait for the flight-skirt option, in Nomex.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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NIN
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« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2014, 06:14:15 AM »

I appreciate the informative answers, and apologize if I was confusing, got too personal, or if I've made a big deal out of nothing. Or anything else someone would want me to apologize about, I don't know. :P

No need to apologize.  Honestly, its an interesting situation that CAP units have to address at some level, and there are a LOT of facets to it.  And a LOT of opinions. There are a couple ways to get it right and a number of ways to get it wrong.

The discussion here may often be wide ranging, slide off topic, and come across as negative, but what you see is a cross-section of folks from across the country, in urban and rural areas, red and blue states, who see different socio-economic dynamics, etc, sharing their experience with CAP. Before the Internet, well, nobody knew anybody much beyond the border of their wing, let alone three regions away. Now we have the benefit (and sometimes, disadvantage) of the experience of folks all over the country.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Tim Medeiros
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2014, 06:24:10 AM »

How do we address members whose religions prohibit women from wearing pants? I knew some cadets with bdu skirts. Also some religions that don't allow males to cut beards or hair?

Did you KNOW cadets with BDU skirts, or did you HEAR about it?  The number of people who swear they've seen "BDU skirts" makes it sound pretty prevalent. I've seen one world's fair, a picnic and a rodeo, and I've never seen a BDU skirt.  Its like Bigfoot, or a $1000 bill....

<snip>

If I had a female cadet who couldn't wear pants for some religious reason (can anybody point me at a specific religion that disallows pants on women, BTW? I keep hearing about this religion in a very non specific way. I'd be curious to understand more.), when it came time to wear BDUs, I would probably coordinate some kind of policy exception that put her in a polo shirt & grey skirt or something like that.

Can't wait for the flight-skirt option, in Nomex.
Two young ladies (sisters) from ALWG at the time attended an NCSA I was at, I can't remember if I was staffing it or a participant at the time.  At least one of them has since changed her religious views, unfortunately I cannot recall off the top of my head what the former religion was.
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TIMOTHY R. MEDEIROS, Lt Col, CAP
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2014, 07:26:16 AM »

If I had a female cadet who couldn't wear pants for some religious reason (can anybody point me at a specific religion that disallows pants on women, BTW? I keep hearing about this religion in a very non specific way. I'd be curious to understand more.), when it came time to wear BDUs, I would probably coordinate some kind of policy exception that put her in a polo shirt & grey skirt or something like that.

Can't wait for the flight-skirt option, in Nomex.

The minimum basic uniform "meets the requirements of most CAP events" according to CAPM 39-1. There are only a few instances in which the blue service uniform wouldn't be acceptable. In those few circumstances (field work, for example), a "skirt" wouldn't be practical either. There's no need to make up "solutions" that are not covered in the regulations just to accommodate people. If a female cadet can't wear pants, then she wears the service uniform with skirt and doesn't participate in activities that would require pants such as ground team work.
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LSThiker
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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2014, 07:44:12 AM »

If I had a female cadet who couldn't wear pants for some religious reason (can anybody point me at a specific religion that disallows pants on women, BTW? I keep hearing about this religion in a very non specific way. I'd be curious to understand more.), when it came time to wear BDUs, I would probably coordinate some kind of policy exception that put her in a polo shirt & grey skirt or something like that.

There are mennonites, Brahmanites, Orthodox Jew, and the more common specific sects of pentacostal christians.  There are a minority of Catholics that believe as well. 
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lordmonar
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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2014, 08:46:57 AM »

I've seen one world's fair, a picnic and a rodeo, and I've never seen a BDU skirt.  Its like Bigfoot, or a $1000 bill....
You can't say that any more
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 08:53:35 AM by lordmonar » Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
NIN
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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2014, 08:50:16 AM »

The minimum basic uniform "meets the requirements of most CAP events" according to CAPM 39-1. There are only a few instances in which the blue service uniform wouldn't be acceptable. In those few circumstances (field work, for example), a "skirt" wouldn't be practical either. There's no need to make up "solutions" that are not covered in the regulations just to accommodate people. If a female cadet can't wear pants, then she wears the service uniform with skirt and doesn't participate in activities that would require pants such as ground team work.

I think the "non participation in ground team and similar activities" is more or less a given based on manner of dress. 

I was speaking of a non-pants option when the rest of the unit is in BDUs, within the limitations of good taste and decorum when it comes to "How much can this cadet participate in" when wearing a skirt.
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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2014, 09:09:20 AM »

((*cough*))...utilikilt...((*cough*))...
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go4spaatz
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« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2014, 09:31:06 AM »

Quote
(can anybody point me at a specific religion that disallows pants on women, BTW? I keep hearing about this religion in a very non specific way. I'd be curious to understand more.)

Extremely conservative Baptists. My family *was* for a while. My sister didn't join CAP because of the pants issue with BDUs. My parents felt if you couldn't fit in with the organization, and follow uniformity, you shouldn't really join. That said, my previous church actually had no female members who wore pants, ever.
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C/Capt Anand, CAP
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Майор Хаткевич
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« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2014, 09:58:25 AM »

How do we address members whose religions prohibit women from wearing pants? I knew some cadets with bdu skirts. Also some religions that don't allow males to cut beards or hair?

Did you KNOW cadets with BDU skirts, or did you HEAR about it?  The number of people who swear they've seen "BDU skirts" makes it sound pretty prevalent. I've seen one world's fair, a picnic and a rodeo, and I've never seen a BDU skirt.  Its like Bigfoot, or a $1000 bill....

<snip>

If I had a female cadet who couldn't wear pants for some religious reason (can anybody point me at a specific religion that disallows pants on women, BTW? I keep hearing about this religion in a very non specific way. I'd be curious to understand more.), when it came time to wear BDUs, I would probably coordinate some kind of policy exception that put her in a polo shirt & grey skirt or something like that.

Can't wait for the flight-skirt option, in Nomex.
Two young ladies (sisters) from ALWG at the time attended an NCSA I was at, I can't remember if I was staffing it or a participant at the time.  At least one of them has since changed her religious views, unfortunately I cannot recall off the top of my head what the former religion was.

2005, and I believe you were a blackhat. I was 15, and called her Alabama. I fell in love with her southern drawl. Still have a picture with one of the sisters somewhere from departure day. Don't remember  the sect she was part of either.

Also, Nin:
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NIN
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« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2014, 10:12:15 AM »

Extremely conservative Baptists. My family *was* for a while. My sister didn't join CAP because of the pants issue with BDUs. My parents felt if you couldn't fit in with the organization, and follow uniformity, you shouldn't really join. That said, my previous church actually had no female members who wore pants, ever.

Hmmmm. Yeah, gotta love the Bible Belt, eh? :)

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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2014, 10:33:54 AM »

I've seen one world's fair, a picnic and a rodeo, and I've never seen a BDU skirt.  Its like Bigfoot, or a $1000 bill....
You can't say that any more

Does that option come with flip flops for those who don't want to wear combat boots? :D

The minimum basic uniform "meets the requirements of most CAP events" according to CAPM 39-1. There are only a few instances in which the blue service uniform wouldn't be acceptable. In those few circumstances (field work, for example), a "skirt" wouldn't be practical either. There's no need to make up "solutions" that are not covered in the regulations just to accommodate people. If a female cadet can't wear pants, then she wears the service uniform with skirt and doesn't participate in activities that would require pants such as ground team work.

I think the "non participation in ground team and similar activities" is more or less a given based on manner of dress. 

I was speaking of a non-pants option when the rest of the unit is in BDUs, within the limitations of good taste and decorum when it comes to "How much can this cadet participate in" when wearing a skirt.

If a uniform is not approved by CAP/CC (and published accordingly), it's not a CAP uniform. Period. Local units are not allowed to get "creative" when it comes to uniforms. If a female cadet can't wear pants, then she only wears the AF-style service uniform with skirt and only participates in those activities that don't require pants. If it was a male cadet who couldn't wear pants for whatever reasons, then he just can't participate in CAP. The same goes for grooming standards such as haircut.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2014, 10:38:48 AM by Storm Chaser » Logged
NIN
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« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2014, 10:45:13 AM »

If a uniform is not approved by CAP/CC, it's not a CAP uniform. Period. Local units are not allowed get "creative" when it comes to uniforms. If a female cadet can't wear pants, then she only wears the AF-style service uniform with skirt and only participates in those activities that don't require pants. If it was a male cadet who couldn't wear pants for whatever reasons, then he just can't participate in CAP. The same goes for grooming standards such as haircut.

Not entirely true.  Like I said before, we have a C/TSgt who has a religious accommodation for grooming and wears BBDUs and white/grey. Technically thats not a cadet uniform per 39-1, right? But there it is. 

I'm sure that some sort of dispensation has been coordinated thru NHQ/DP or similar. I don't believe that this cadet just showed up in BBDUs and said "Hey, here I am!"

It works. Its not perfect, but it works, and it allows the organization to accommodate a member's religious beliefs without too much craziness.

That cadet is wearing a CAP-distinctive uniform (BBDUs or whites/greys) that is properly the same as anybody else in CAP wearing that uniform (senior members, that is), but he's a cadet.

Making something totally different up, like a BDU skirt, is an entirely different kettle of fish (and I would agree that its not authorized. Period).  But having a female cadet who is not allowed to wear pants for religious reasons participate in either their blues (with a skirt) or, potentially, in a golf/polo shirt combo with the grey skirt as a "more of a work uniform", while everybody else is in BDUs as a UOD, is likely the more reasonable and appropriate option than making stuff up like a BDU skirt.


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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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Eclipse
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« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2014, 10:47:16 AM »

I'm sure that some sort of dispensation has been coordinated thru NHQ/DP or similar. I don't believe that this cadet just showed up in BBDUs and said "Hey, here I am!"

You might want to actually confirm that...
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Storm Chaser
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« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2014, 10:49:39 AM »

I don't have a problem with cadets wearing CAP distinctive uniforms if approved by NHQ and published in CAPM 39-1. What I said was that it's not up to the local commander to make that determination. 
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NIN
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« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2014, 10:59:33 AM »

I'm sure that some sort of dispensation has been coordinated thru NHQ/DP or similar. I don't believe that this cadet just showed up in BBDUs and said "Hey, here I am!"

You might want to actually confirm that...

Why?

This cadet participates in wing and national activities in these uniforms, specifically ES training and missions here, and HRMS and Blue Beret nationally. 

He's not in my squadron. Why is it my responsibility to insert my beak where it doesn't belong?

I have been told by knowledgeable parties that a solution was sought and coordinated thru channels, and that this cadet is "good to go." Is that not good enough? Do I march up to the wing commander and demand to see the email chain or a written authorization from NHQ?

At a certain point, you need to basically assume that people are doing what they're supposed to be doing and that when a commander or someone with more knowledge of the situation says "Its been handled thru channels," then its on them. 

And if I don't miss my guess by too much, this cadet has the written authorization photocopied and in his wallet or something. 


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Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
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