Question regarding to Old Style Dress Jacket

[AirForceBlue117]

Hello...our squadron commander asked for all NCOs and Officers to acquire a Class A Jacket, but when one of our cadets asked "If the old style jacket was authorized?", our Commander replied "No, they are planning to phase them out by the end of this year." (He is one of the aids to the National Commander) I was wondering if anyone knew about this or could share any input in to this?

[PHall]

Okay, I'll be the first. What does CAPM 39-1 say?

[Eclipse]

Why would the National Commander have aides from Florida wing who are Squadron CCs?

[AirForceBlue117]

1.) It doesn't say anything about it, that's why I'm asking the forum.
2.) That...I couldn't say much, I don't what's going on there. All I know he is one of two aides to National Commander.

[AlphaSigOU]

Why would the National Commander have aides from Florida wing who are Squadron CCs?

Those are 'additional duty' (ADY) positions. Granted, I do agree with you that a sitting squadron commander shouldn't hold an additional duty position.

[Eclipse]

So back to the OP, and as usual, stellar editing and proof reading in 39-1.

The answer is "yes", cadets can wear the olde style jackets and there is no publicly acknowledged plan
to eliminate them.  This was suggested a number of times during the draft process and the
expense was cited as a primary reason to continue the current practice of allowing cadets the older style jacket.

If your CC expects you to spend upwards of $160 for a jacket you will likely outgrow in a year, he should
provide something more tangible then "I heard" as support for his request.  As a cadet, he can not require you
to wear anything other then the MBU (Class B) unless you do so voluntarily, or the uniform item is issued to you.

Page 35-36 CAPM 39-1 26 JUNE 2014

4.1.6. Men's Service Dress Uniform (Class A) Old Style (Figure 4.6) 36
4.1.6.1. This USAF-style uniform may only be worn by cadets.

and

Page 43

4.1.8. Women's USAF Style Service Dress Uniform (Class A) Old Style. (Figure 4.8)
4.1.8.1. This USAF-style uniform may only be worn by cadets.

With that said, 39-1 has more then a few "issues" regarding this:
Click here to play along at home: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/m391_e6f33eaaec28a.pdf

• Figure 4.5 on Page 30 indicates  "Female Cadet Semi-formal Dress Uniform (Old Style and New Style)" with two diagrams of NEW style jackets.
  
  Figure 4.6 on Page 32 indicates Male Service Dress Uniforms (Officer, NCO, Cadet Officers [Old Style], and Cadet
  NCOs and Airmen [New Style])" with four diagrams of NEW style service coats. (see below)
  
  Figure 4.7 on Page 39 indicates "Female Service Dress Uniform Service Dress Uniforms (Officer, NCO, Cadet Officers
  [New Style], and Cadet NCOs and Airmen [Old Style])" with four diagrams of NEW style jackets
  
  Figure 4.8 on Page 47 (referenced for female jackets as indicated above) is concerning shirts and make no mention of jackets.

The only diagram that shows an olde style service coat correctly is on Page 28 in regards to cadet semi-formal.

[lordmonar]

That's not what the OP asked.

To answer the OP's question.....is No one here is on the National Uniform Committee.  They have been considering phasing out the old service coat for quite a while now (long past due IMHO).

While 39-1 dose still allow the old style coat to be worn.....it does not limit the unit commander to state or even mandate a preference for his unit.

If you unit CC has a direct line to the national commander....I would think his information may be a lot fresher then anyone's here.

[AlphaSigOU]

Hello...our squadron commander asked for all NCOs and Officers to acquire a Class A Jacket, but when one of our cadets asked "If the old style jacket was authorized?", our Commander replied "No, they are planning to phase them out by the end of this year." (He is one of the aids to the National Commander) I was wondering if anyone knew about this or could share any input in to this?

As far as I know there is no phase out date for the McConnell-style four-pocket service dress jacket for cadets, though the only ones currently wearing this style jacket in the RealAirForce® are Air Force Academy cadets, and existing supplies of this style uniform jackets are beginning to become scarce in surplus channels. I would not be surprised if this jacket is phased out (with plenty of time to sunset) in the next revision of CAPM 39-1.

(And for the record, I am not one  of the members of the NUC, nor do I play one on TV; I assisted with the creation of the uniform wear illustrations for the new 39-1 - for which I was awarded the National Commander's Commendation Award at the CAP national conference in Lost Wages.)

[Eclipse]

That's not what the OP asked.

Yes, it is, and your suggesting that the "wives tale" channel of being Gen Vasquz's Aide (assuming he has those) as
a viable process for changing the uniform is how this nonsense propagates.

Hello...our squadron commander asked for all NCOs and Officers to acquire a Class A Jacket, but when one of our cadets asked "If the old style jacket was authorized?", our Commander replied "No, they are planning to phase them out by the end of this year."

I was wondering if anyone knew about this or could share any input in to this?

The answer is, "yes, the jacket is authorized", and "no they are not phasing them out by the end of the year."

Aide or not, his CC is wrong, since the jacket is, in fact, authorized, and even when phase-outs are announced,
the retiring item is authorized up to and including the last day of wear.

[Eclipse]

I would not be surprised if this jacket is phased out (with plenty of time to sunset) in the next revision of CAPM 39-1.

So 2024, then?

[AlphaSigOU]

I would not be surprised if this jacket is phased out (with plenty of time to sunset) in the next revision of CAPM 39-1.

So 2024, then?

Ain't holding my breath, brudda!

[a2capt]

Why would the National Commander have aides from Florida wing who are Squadron CCs?

Because history can repeat itself, even if not for the same intentions?

[Eclipse]

Why would the National Commander have aides from Florida wing who are Squadron CCs?

Because history can repeat itself, even if not for the same intentions?

So maybe in this version HWSRN is selling real estate on Rura Penthe?

[abdsp51]

It should be phased out.  They are a pain to find and then you can run into shade matching issues.

[Eclipse]

It should be phased out.  They are a pain to find and then you can run into shade matching issues.

Being a "pain to find" isn't relevent, since they are only an option, not a requirement.

And while I agree with the shade issue point, it's also not really relevent since NHQ approves of the wear,
and "shade issues" have never been something stressed by NHQ - look around at your next meeting and
see how many seniors have the proper shade match on their blues.

[pierson777]

To the OP: In your original post, did you mean cadet NCOs and cadet officers or did you mean senior member NCOs and senior member officers?  When you just say "NCOs and officers" I assume you mean seniors members.

The answer to your question is: No, the old-style service coat is still authorized for cadets.  No phase out date has been announced.  Cadets may still wear the old-style service coat.  Senior members are not authorized to wear the old-style service coat.

I would like to add this reminder.  I often see cadets with different fabric and shade of slacks and service coats.  This happens when the cadet receives their slacks from the Free Uniform program, then obtain the old-style service coat from their unit supply or local surplus or thrift store.  If a cadet member is going to wear the old-style coat, then they must obtain the old fabric and shade slacks to match.  However, I have NEVER seen a cadet do this.  From 39-1: 4.1.5.8 & 4.1.7.8. The slacks material will match the service dress coat in both fabric and shade.

Additionally, the Blue Service Uniform (Class B) and Aviator Shirt Uniform are the minimum basic uniforms.  The commander cannot require cadet members to wear other uniforms (i.e. Service Dress (Class A)) unless it's for an optional activity or unless the uniform is supplied to the cadet at no expense to the cadet.  There's nothing restricting a commander from stating a preference but they cannot mandate the Service Dress Uniform for a required activity.

From CAPM 39-1
1.2.1. Individual members will obtain and maintain for wear either of the minimum basic uniforms described here. These combinations meet the requirements of most CAP events. A commander may require cadets to wear other optional uniform items only if the purchase is voluntary (such as requiring a specific uniform for participation in a National Cadet Special Activity) or if the uniform is supplied without expense to the cadet.

1.2.1.1. Minimum USAF-style Uniform: The minimum basic USAF-style uniform is the Blue Service Uniform (Class B) with short sleeve shirt (male) or blouse (female) as appropriate. Cadets authorized to wear the USAF-style uniform are required to maintain this uniform.

1.2.1.2. Minimum Corporate-style Uniform: The minimum basic CAP Corporate-style uniform is the Aviator Shirt Uniform with short sleeve shirt or blouse as appropriate. Cadets aged 18 and older who meet weight standards for wear of the USAF-style uniform must maintain the USAF-style Class B uniform as noted in the previous paragraph.

[pierson777]

It should be phased out.  They are a pain to find and then you can run into shade matching issues.

Being a "pain to find" isn't relevent, since they are only an option, not a requirement.

And while I agree with the shade issue point, it's also not really relevent since NHQ approves of the wear,
and "shade issues" have never been something stressed by NHQ - look around at your next meeting and
see how many seniors have the proper shade match on their blues.

National published the manual which requires matching shade.  It's up to members to know the correct requirements to wear the old-style coat with matching fabric and shade slacks, and it's up to commander's at every level to enforce compliance with CAPM 39-1.

I don't know what you mean by seniors with different shade.  The seniors don't wear the old-style coat.  Unless you've got a senior member that by some miracle still fits into their 1989 slacks (old style fabric and shade) and now has the new-style service coat.