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Author Topic: "...up to Lt. Col....." Insulting and discriminatory  (Read 17311 times)
oldrugged
Recruit

Posts: 9

« on: April 13, 2007, 05:55:07 PM »

Isn't it time to change the CAP policy which accepts military grades only up to Lt Col? 

I believe that the CAP should either make everyone start at the 0-1 grade and work his / her way up through the CAP ranks, or accept all military grades at their earned grade, whatever that may be (01-011).  The reasons I've been given for this discriminatory policy boggle the imagination in their ascininity. 

Maxwell contacts said there are already too many colonels in the CAP!!  So be it.  Perhaps there are too many in the military, but what does that have to do with a consistent policy rather than a  policy which discriminates and insults our most senior officers who have earned the grade in the real military. 

Another reason I was given by the TX Wing Director is that the job (billet) must be tied to a grade.  I have also read the threads here that are of the opinion that the grade should fit the job.  Why does this opinion apply only to the 0-6 grades and above at a Wing and National level in the CAP?  I have seen squadron commanders from 0-3 to 0-5, with more senior officers within their command.  I can tell you that there is absolutely nothing I do as a squadron medical officer that warrants the grade of 0-5.  The real military deals with more junior grades in command positions having personnel of more senior grade, and they do fine.  Is the CAP more complex?  I have been in one command (The National Naval Medical Center, Bethesda, MD) when it had an 0-7 serving under an 0-6 C.O. 

Even the rationales given for having this policy are discriminatory, and apply only to state and national positions within the CAP.  The do not apply at all to lower positions.  So much for the billet / grade rationale.  Their only constant is inconsistency. 

The senior wing and national personnel in command positions should remember that most in the CAP are VOLUNTEERS who join because they want to contribute by flying within the mission of the CAP, work with cadet education, and have FUN doing them.  For example, on my own, I have made up talks on a wide variety of medicaly-related issues at the cadet level, and have distributed them to squadrons nationally on request.  I have been invited to give the talks to other squadrons myself.  I have had an interest in the CAP since my cadet years in OK in high school.  But, I am disappointed by the politicalization of the organization today, and insulted by its discrimination against senior military officers who join.  It isn't like the CAP is going to Iraq to fight and requires a tight command structure for a wartime environment.  I stay in because of my interest in the cadets.  I have no interest in competing for wing or national positions.  The interest in the youth extends to my being on the admissions committee for my medical school, and being on my local congressman's Service Academy Nominating Committee.

Just for the record, because one senior official questioned how I obtained the 0-6 grade, I have held every officer grade from 0-1 to 0-6 through a combination of USNR, active regular USN, and USAFR service since 1967.  I also completed the Air War College like any other USAF officer who is being considered for 0-6.  How did I get the 0-6 grade?  I earned it, and was appointed by an officer selection board like everyone else!

David A. Cross, M.D.
Senior Staff, Anesthesiology
Scott and White Memorial Hospital and Clinic
Temple, TX
Associate Professor, Anesthesiology
TX A&M Health Sciences University
Col USAFR MC (ret)
Col Texas State Guard, Texas Medical Brigade
Lt Col CAP
Squadron Medical Officer, Bell County, Texas Composite Squadron, Temple, TX
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TankerT
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« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2007, 06:28:30 PM »

Well.  I see a few problems here.

1 - There is no way that CAP could allow a General to be a CAP General.  CAP isn't authorized by the USAF.  And, until a few years ago (taking the one prior blip out of the picture) we didn't have anything over Brigadier General.

2- The explanations given to you are not exactly correct.  Grade isn't tied with billets.  (We actually don't have "billets" like the military does.)  Grade is tied to the scope where a person lies in the corporation.  (Remember, we're a corporation.  Not the military.)  Grade of Colonel and above are reserved for Corporate officers.  Not Commissioned Officers.  Everyone else  can be an officer up to Lt Col, regardless of their position.

3- In actuality, your claim of discrimination wouldn't actually meet the true or legal definition of discrimination.  The grade structure is enforced across the board, with no regard to sex, race, education, etc.  Every officer is allowed to hold a CAP grade equivalent to their military grade up to Lt Col.  It is presented plainly before joining.

4- Yes, the organization has some distasteful political issues at the top.  But, so does any other organization this size.  (Heck, even smaller organizations have it that way.)

5- Actually, I know several former military officers that were above Lt Col.  They are treated with respect by most people (yes, you'll always have some jerks that have a narrow view on anything outside their opinion) and serve with distinction in their units.

6- I get the impression that you've been jerked around with a bit by your post.  And, in all honesty, if you're getting some of the information you have quoted from Wing or Higher, it shows that being in an authority position doesn't necessarily tie to grade or knowledge in this organization.

7- When you get upset about CAP grade being unfair... remember... it is just that. CAP Grade.  Yeah.  If you are a retired 0-6... that carries a lot of weight with a lot of people.  (Me included.)  CAP Grade?  My CAP Grade and $3 will get me a Coffee at Starbucks.  That's about it.

8- I applaud you for working with cadets, and promoting medical careers.  So many kids don't know the opportunities out there.  Having someone they know and feel comfortable approaching to discuss something like this can change so many lives.  Please don't let CAP's grade system deter you from all the good you can do for the youth of this organization.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2007, 07:14:01 PM »

I could see the change in CAP SOP allowing a current of former O-6 to keep his Eagles in CAP.  The whole notion of no-one being allowed to be a Colonel except for Region and Wing Commanders is outdated.  They need to make the organization more parallel with the AF. 

This makes me think.....If an AD/GUARD or RESERVE LT comes in and is given that CAP grade, what happens when he or she is promoted to CAPT in the military?  Can they reapply for an immediate promotion to be a CAP CAPT?  What about MAJ and LTCOL?  See the point, we allow the initial grade but do not allow subsequent promotions.  To me that is unfair/ insulting and discriminatory. 

Example:  AF 1st Lt Joe Blow comes and joins CAP, he is given 1st LT in CAP.  His buddy AF 1st Lt Jane Lane waits to join CAP for one month.  During that month both 1st LT Joe Blow and 1st Lt Jane Lane are promoted by the AF to CAPTAIN.  CAPTAIN JANE LANE joins and is given CAPTAIN in CAP.  Both CAP members have the same date of rank to CAPTAIN in the AF, but Joe Blow must wait until he completes Time In Grade to make CAP CAPTAIN. 

DID YOU FOLLOW???  Is it Fair?  Or am I as slow as some have told me I am?
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DNall
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« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2007, 07:15:20 PM »

Well, actually it was one little blip in there where it went down from MajGen to Brig, because the membership had dropped from our traditional number. It still hasn't recovered to that 80k range but suposedly the increased importance of our new missions after 9/11 deserve the bump. I'll let you know when we start running those missions.

Anyway, with the general subject. Yes I agree mil grade should be recognized acorss the board. At least to the degree CAP has those grades (Maj Gen). Personally, I'd ask AF to allow LtGen & Gen as well ONLY if earned in prior service, I'm quitre sure they'd approve that.

If past corp officers can retain their grade then you can't call it a designator for that, and besides there should be stuff like NB/NEC nadges & CC's badge to designate that stuff. So that's not a valid reason.

Oh, and yes mil officers who get promoted on the mil side can put in a new 2a & be promoted on the CAP side. It rarely happens since the CAP promotion periods are so fast by comparison, but there is no restriction & it will be approved.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2007, 07:25:44 PM »

I could see the change in CAP SOP allowing a current of former O-6 to keep his Eagles in CAP.  The whole notion of no-one being allowed to be a Colonel except for Region and Wing Commanders is outdated.  They need to make the organization more parallel with the AF. 

This makes me think.....If an AD/GUARD or RESERVE LT comes in and is given that CAP grade, what happens when he or she is promoted to CAPT in the military?  Can they reapply for an immediate promotion to be a CAP CAPT?  What about MAJ and LTCOL?  See the point, we allow the initial grade but do not allow subsequent promotions.  To me that is unfair/ insulting and discriminatory. 

Example:  AF 1st Lt Joe Blow comes and joins CAP, he is given 1st LT in CAP.  His buddy AF 1st Lt Jane Lane waits to join CAP for one month.  During that month both 1st LT Joe Blow and 1st Lt Jane Lane are promoted by the AF to CAPTAIN.  CAPTAIN JANE LANE joins and is given CAPTAIN in CAP.  Both CAP members have the same date of rank to CAPTAIN in the AF, but Joe Blow must wait until he completes Time In Grade to make CAP CAPTAIN. 

DID YOU FOLLOW???  Is it Fair?  Or am I as slow as some have told me I am?
Actually, Lt Joe can submit a Form 2 for promotion to Captain as soon as he wants after making Captain in the AF. I have done this twice for AD members, and it has gone through with no questions.
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Dave Bowles
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Sgt. Savage
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« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2007, 07:39:32 PM »

We need to link rank to billet instead of PD. If we make it tougher to make rank, and only allow promotion through certain ranks unless billeted, we can get a better handle on this whole situation. It's nice to have prior service rank, and maybe that experience needs to be considered but... how dificult is it to have a General walking around while a 1st Lt is running the show.

Just food for thought
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Eagle400
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« Reply #6 on: April 13, 2007, 07:41:18 PM »

Great point, SSgt Savage.  However, I think CAP needs to do it like the Air Force. 

How about automatic promotions up to Capt in CAP, just like in the Air Force?  In the Air Force, if you do your job and stay out of jail, you get promoted to Captain in 4 years.  

The focus is on job performance, not professional development.  In the Air Force, officer testing for promotion doesn't happen until Major.

I think the promotion system in CAP would work better if it operated the same way.    
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TankerT
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« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2007, 07:42:09 PM »

Well, actually it was one little blip in there where it went down from MajGen to Brig, because the membership had dropped from our traditional number. It still hasn't recovered to that 80k range but suposedly the increased importance of our new missions after 9/11 deserve the bump. I'll let you know when we start running those missions.

The blip had nothing to do with membership.  CAP decided (back... what... 15 or so years ago...) that the National Commander should be a 2 Star.  So, they promoted him.  Yeah... the Air Force wasn't involved with that... and... they didn't like it.  So, the next NCC was a BG.  It was purely politics.  (And... you can thank that incident for the lovely maroon epaulets...)
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Sgt. Savage
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« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2007, 07:51:25 PM »

Great point, SSgt Savage.  However, I think CAP needs to do it like the Air Force. 

How about automatic promotions up to Capt in CAP, just like in the Air Force?  In the Air Force, if you do your job and stay out of jail, you get promoted to Captain in 4 years.  

The focus is on job performance, not professional development.  In the Air Force, testing for promotion doesn't happen until Major.

I think the promotion system in CAP would work better if it operated the same way.    

Great way to do it. I'm also in favor of bringing back NCO promotions, and enlisted rank. We can give away e-1 to e-4 and then hold an OTS for officer candidates or a very rigid promotion board for SSgt and up. At least then ALL of our officers come out with at least the basic knowledge of cap and our NCOs will have the same.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2007, 07:58:44 PM »

Just for the record, because one senior official questioned how I obtained the 0-6 grade, I have held every officer grade from 0-1 to 0-6 through a combination of USNR, active regular USN, and USAFR service since 1967.  I also completed the Air War College like any other USAF officer who is being considered for 0-6.  How did I get the 0-6 grade?  I earned it, and was appointed by an officer selection board like everyone else!

Not to sound dismissive or insulting, just to get a better perspective on your thoughts...

When you joined the USAF, what were you...a 2d Lt, right, because you have no experience in the military? When you join CAP, what do you start as...SM but we'll rush that to 2d Lt, why, because you have no experience in CAP.  

(please don't take the following the wrong way...it kind of pertains to your first paragraph)
Upon joining CAP what have you done for the organization to justify you being promoted to the grade of CAP Colonel?  Or if you want to be a CAP Colonel, why not do something for the organization to justify your promotion within that organization, like become a Wing Commander.

Now you stated that you are have been a member for some time now and have most likely contributed to your squadron.  But since you have actually earned the grade of Colonel in the USAF, do you think that your level of responsibility at the squadron is that of someone who wears CAP Col?  If you were a Lt. Gen as a Leadership Officer at the squadron level, don't you think that would be a little out of place?  You would "out rank" the National Commander.  A little absurd to me.

I am one of the ones that believes that CAP grade should be tied to responsibility level, rather than PD.  I think that CAP has the right idea with tying the ranks of Col and above to the positions they hold, because they represent the level of responsibility they have in the organization.  I think they should continue it further down.

I would like to hear your perspective on why, other than "I was a Colonel in the USAF," that new members should be automatically promoted to their respective grades (regardless of what that grade is) while serving in the military.

I agree with your first sentence...

"I believe that the CAP should either make everyone start at the 0-1 grade and work his / her way up through the CAP ranks"

Again, no disrespect intended, writing doesn't always come out the way you want it to.
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Eagle400
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« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2007, 08:09:45 PM »

Great way to do it. I'm also in favor of bringing back NCO promotions, and enlisted rank. We can give away e-1 to e-4 and then hold an OTS for officer candidates or a very rigid promotion board for SSgt and up.

You know, Maj Kachenmeister made a similar proposal a while back.  You may want to send him a PM about your idea.  In addition, there have been several ideas for an Officer Training School within CAP.  The only one I know of that exists right now is the Iowa Wing OTS, and I'm not entirely sure how it works.   

At least then ALL of our officers come out with at least the basic knowledge of cap and our NCOs will have the same.

I agree.  However, one thing you may want to keep in mind is the reason the Air Force got rid of non-prior service NCO's in CAP was because there were too many who wore the uniform incorrectly and soforth.  However, your idea is only for non-prior service E-1 through E-4, not non-prior service E-1 through E-9. 

It sounds like a great idea, and I fully support it.  The hard part will be convincing the Air Force that itís a good idea. 
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oldrugged
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« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2007, 08:13:14 PM »

What part of my original post did you not understand.  I covered all your points.  It isn't me that has made the policy of accepting military rank regardless of position held for OTHER than 0-6 and above.  It is the CAP which has done that.  I made it very very very very very clear that I do nothing as an 0-5 that warrants an 0-5 commission.  I do the same job in the CAP as I do in 'civilian' life....I am a physician.  I am board certified in anesthesiology and critical care medicine, and am an advanced cardiac life support instructor.  That gives me more than passing knowledge of emergency medical services.  My only experience in CAP was as a cadet in the 50s.  However, I was some 13 years in the USAFR and have more than smattering knowledge of the organization.

As for 0-9 and above.....it would still seem less discriminatory to allow up to 0-8, the same rank as the national commander, even though the 2-star wouldn't be the national commander.  If an 0-3 can be a squadron commander with 0-5s in the command, why can there be only one 2-star in the organization??  Is there only one 4-star in the USA, USAF, USN, USMC, USCG???  Nope....but only one is chair of the joint chiefs.  No where, other than at the Wing and National organizational structure is the grade associated with any job title.

David A. Cross
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Sgt. Savage
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« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2007, 08:16:02 PM »

I'm actually in favor of promoting non-prior service through to at least TSgt. In order to maintain the integrity of the Corp, prior service NCOs will sit on the promotion boards, since all we have is PS NCOs at this point. Promotions need to be HARD. I don't think that a promotion board should be comprised of more than 1/3 people from your own unit. We need boards with unquestionable integrity. Every promotion should be a unanimous one. Officer promotions should be similar, if not the same.
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SarDragon
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« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2007, 08:17:45 PM »

I agree.  However, one thing you may want to keep in mind is the reason the Air Force got rid of non-prior service NCO's in CAP was because there were too many who wore the uniform incorrectly and soforth.

Could you provide a source for that? I was in CAP when that happened, and don't recall ever hearing that as a reason.
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Dave Bowles
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« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2007, 08:21:11 PM »

Quote from: jimmydeanno
I am one of the ones that believes that CAP grade should be tied to responsibility level
You have a point though I still think some PD requirements should still count.  Maybe promote to major after some time at group level or squadron commander along with current Level III requirements.  Lieutenant colonel with some time at wing along with completion of Level IV.  Those who've earned Level V would qualify for colonel with five years time-in-grade as lieutenant colonels and three years at wing.  Time-in-grade requirements would remain as they are. Just thinking out loud!
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2007, 08:29:23 PM »

Quote from: jimmydeanno
I am one of the ones that believes that CAP grade should be tied to responsibility level
You have a point though I still think some PD requirements should still count.  Maybe promote to major after some time at group level or squadron commander along with current Level III requirements.  Lieutenant colonel with some time at wing along with completion of Level IV.  Those who've earned Level V would qualify for colonel with five years time-in-grade as lieutenant colonels and three years at wing.  Time-in-grade requirements would remain as they are. Just thinking out loud!
If you tie the PD requirements to the positions, it would all line up.  For instance...to be a Squadron Commander, you must complete level III.  For example;

Requirements for Major:
Hold CAP position of Squadron Commander or Equivilent (say Wing Director of ES)
Complete level III of the Senior Program
Have TIG of X as Captain

You would still be able to complete the requirements for the PD levels, but not be promoted unless you were holding a position that warranted that grade. Then you would have Majors who have completed level III holding a position that warranted that grade, and if they wanted to become a group commander or something, they'd finish the appropriate PD level and get the job.

The issues you'd have though would be a fledling or dieing squadron where a 2d Lt is the only person that is willing to take over.  Perhaps waivers for an X amount of time...

Just ideas...
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Eagle400
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« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2007, 08:30:26 PM »

I agree.  However, one thing you may want to keep in mind is the reason the Air Force got rid of non-prior service NCO's in CAP was because there were too many who wore the uniform incorrectly and soforth.

Could you provide a source for that? I was in CAP when that happened, and don't recall ever hearing that as a reason.

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1041972456/m/1920095511001?r=1680006511001#1680006511001

Quote from: DeputyDog02
The reason we were pressured to limit who becomes NCOs in the CAP was because of unprofessional and sloppy non-prior service CAP senior NCOs. If we go back to that, it will happen again.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2007, 08:32:36 PM »

I agree.  However, one thing you may want to keep in mind is the reason the Air Force got rid of non-prior service NCO's in CAP was because there were too many who wore the uniform incorrectly and soforth.

Could you provide a source for that? I was in CAP when that happened, and don't recall ever hearing that as a reason.

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1041972456/m/1920095511001?r=1680006511001#1680006511001

Quote from: DeputyDog02
The reason we were pressured to limit who becomes NCOs in the CAP was because of unprofessional and sloppy non-prior service CAP senior NCOs. If we go back to that, it will happen again.


No offense to DeputyDog(02), but the "source" you provided is no more valid then the post above stating that.  You can't just cite another forum as factual.  How about something "from the source?"
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2007, 10:13:10 PM »

A couple of thoughts:

1) CAP colonel is a grade awarded by National Board only.....often is, but nor required to be, tied to corporate office....e.g., the gentlemen who developed SDIS was promoted to colonel; also, I think surviving coastal patrol members (long overdue, IMHO)

2) those who earn grades O-6 and above in the military should indeed be given equivalent grade in CAP. To get around the various problems this entails, such members should be enrolled as members of one of the several National HQ units (or start a new one just for them). Allow them to participate locally as ES personnel, instructors, or advisors on an ADY basis. If they accept command at region level,  or command or staff at national level, allow it to be in their earned
grade (this could include temporary command of a special activity, like Blue Beret or a Region Staff College or CLS). If they accept command at wing level or lower, maximum grade should be O-6.....if some general wants to command a squadron or group that badly, he/she can take the temporary 'bust'.

Please observe that I am not suggesting or allowing for such experienced officers to serve as vice commanders, deputy commanders, chiefs of staff or staff officers at region level or lower. If they chose to, it ought to be under existing CAP regulations (a region CV, CS or DCS can be a colonel).
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2007, 10:18:32 PM »

A couple of thoughts:

1) CAP colonel is a grade awarded by National Board only.....often is, but nor required to be, tied to corporate office....e.g., the gentlemen who developed SDIS was promoted to colonel; also, I think surviving coastal patrol members (long overdue, IMHO)

2) those who earn grades O-6 and above in the military should indeed be given equivalent grade in CAP. To get around the various problems this entails, such members should be enrolled as members of one of the several National HQ units (or start a new one just for them). Allow them to participate locally as ES personnel, instructors, or advisors on an ADY basis. If they accept command at region level,  or command or staff at national level, allow it to be in their earned
grade (this could include temporary command of a special activity, like Blue Beret or a Region Staff College or CLS). If they accept command at wing level or lower, maximum grade should be O-6.....if some general wants to command a squadron or group that badly, he/she can take the temporary 'bust'.

Please observe that I am not suggesting or allowing for such experienced officers to serve as vice commanders, deputy commanders, chiefs of staff or staff officers at region level or lower. If they chose to, it ought to be under existing CAP regulations (a region CV, CS or DCS can be a colonel).

So you're saying that prior military Colonels shouldn't be allowed to be a member of a local squadron as a Colonel unless they take a "bust", which puts them in the same position that they're in now.  What if they don't want to be a member of a "National HQ Squadron?

You are basically saying what I posted above, that if they are doing something "worthy" of the grade, they shouldn't wear it in CAP.  Which then goes to the position based grades...

TAGS - jimmy
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lordmonar
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« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2007, 11:45:53 PM »

We need to link rank to billet instead of PD. If we make it tougher to make rank, and only allow promotion through certain ranks unless billeted, we can get a better handle on this whole situation. It's nice to have prior service rank, and maybe that experience needs to be considered but... how difficult is it to have a General walking around while a 1st Lt is running the show.

Just food for thought

Well now....lets look at that then.  First to link rank with billets we need to link billets with mission.

Say....if you have 1 plane you need 10 pilots, 10 observers, 10 Scanners, and 30 mission base personnel.  If you have 1 van you need 5 GTLs, and 15 GTM.  Every unit  will be on task to provide x number of flight line marshalers, x number of radio operators.

Once you have that you then create your billets. 1 Major to command, etc and so forth.

but what happens to the squadron across the street?  The one with twice as many people as your squadron but they don't have a plane?  No plane, no billets, no billets no rank.

Yes it sounds nice to say you are going to tie rank to billets.....but it is a whole lot more complicated than that.  Can you imagine the personnel night mare managing this at a wing level?
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PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
RiverAux
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« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2007, 12:04:49 AM »

I am against all special appointments to any grade within CAP for whatever reason -- prior service, civilian skills, pilot skills, etc.  CAP is its own unique organization and while many of those receiving special appointments can offer a lot of great experience to CAP in very narrow areas they are no different than most of our other senior members in that regard.

CAP grade should only be based on CAP experience and training just as a new person joining most any other paramilitary organization (police for example) would face. 
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2007, 12:13:53 AM »

Whew...this "dilema" is really making me think, and I think I've come around full circle to the original starting point...here's my thought process.

1. If you link grade to position i.e. squadron commander = major and everyone else below them is of a lower grade eventually, the squadron commander is going to be changed.  Now, unlike the AF, where you either move up or out, you can stay in the squadron should you chose not to be squadron commander anymore.  It would be bad form to tell a volunteer to either move up or move out.  This leaves you in the same position you are in now, a major working for a captain.

2. If the grade was temporary, then there would be no point in it exept to show your current level of responsibility.  So you would end up with former wing commanders wearing 2d Lt if they just wanted to be someones assistant at a squadron.  So really, it makes the "grade system" useless.

So does that mean we should abandon the grade system all together and just have "positions?"  "Hi I'm Jim, Squadron Commander" or "Hi I'm Jim, Leadership Officer."

The recognition for holding command positions would be denoted on the ribbon rack with the command service ribbon for "commanders."
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RiverAux
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« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2007, 12:42:28 AM »

Quote
So does that mean we should abandon the grade system all together and just have "positions?"  "Hi I'm Jim, Squadron Commander" or "Hi I'm Jim, Leadership Officer."

Works great for CG Aux and they even have rank insignia linked with the position, though they don't use the name of that rank and they get to keep the insignia for the highest position they've held even after it is gone. 

You know, I've been on the CG Aux board at military.com for about 3 years and I don't recall hearing one complaint about that particular aspect of the program.  Whereas on CAP boards it is always a topic of discussion every few months. 

I know some will say, well thats CG Aux and they're different....well, that may be, but they are exactly the same in that the rank insignia hold exactly the same amount of weight as CAP insignia (none) and that the important fact is who holds a position within the administrative structure at any one point.   

Heres how it breaks down in my view:  The CG Aux doesn't even pretend to have rank and elects all its leaders and gets to work extremely closely with their parent service and wears almost identical uniforms while many CAP members place a great deal of importance on rank, there is a a very undemocratic structure, and the result is an organization that hardly ever really interacts with its parent service, which ensures that only a small number of CAP members can wear a uniform even remotely like the AF's.   
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2007, 12:48:25 AM »

Hold a second, many of you are talking as if every unit is "staffed" to the ideal and that people are hitting their head on the ceiling  jumping up for command.  Let's just be sure to include the realities of CAP.

In our unit, we took a two pronged attack 1) Staff the squadron...once people are comfortable with the idea of CAP and have taken a position,2)  we rotate command positions (if possible, viable and if staff officers are willing.)  The idea is to prevent burnouts.

I am afraid I must echo the sentiments of some others who maintain that the CAP rank and training system is pretty much its own and different animal.  Save for certain courses from the military that transfer (likely due to the fact their their CAP counterparts are designed to fill certain military requirements that non-priors do not have), everything about CAP is totally different.

There will always be a "precarious" issue with CAP rank since CAP is made up of Volunteers that don't leave or change out when they have moved up.

I look at the inactive and active Lt Cols and the like as having rank reflecting of their CAP training, skills or military service.

Just to stir the pot for discussion...suppose one promotes former military on a scale similar to the professional appointments.  Thus... enlisted bump up to 1st Lt, NCOs to Captains, Company Grade officers to Majors and Senior Officers to Lt Colonel.  Disgusted?  Yes?  So am I,   But beware, this is an example of how bad things can get if one fiddles with something like this and is subject to the likeliest of compromises.

BEWARE!!!
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2007, 05:26:27 AM »


So you're saying that prior military Colonels shouldn't be allowed to be a member of a local squadron as a Colonel unless they take a "bust", which puts them in the same position that they're in now.  What if they don't want to be a member of a "National HQ Squadron?

You are basically saying what I posted above, that if they are doing something "worthy" of the grade, they shouldn't wear it in CAP.  Which then goes to the position based grades...

TAGS - jimmy

Either I expressed it poorly or you misunderstood me:

1) Colonels & above are absolutely worthy of the grade they've earned in their years of service and sacrifice for our nation

2) The idea behind having such officers 'belong' to National is to place them outside the chain of command of the wing, group & region....it really would be awkward to have a squadron commanded by a CAP 1 Lt with a CAP Lt Gen as a member! But with that general officer as a mentor/advisor/instructor, formally assigned to another command, it could work

3) The CAP National CC is a Maj Gen now, and could live with a general officer (even a senior one) on National staff, or as region commander....however, i think it's a lot to ask a region or wing commander (normally a CAP colonel) to have a subordinate commander who was a general officer....so yes, I think if that general wants to exercise command of a CAP wing or subordinate unit, he or she needs to do so as a CAP colonel,,,,no disrespect intended for the officer's achievements, just trying to maintain some sense to the way things work.
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oldrugged
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« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2007, 12:36:07 PM »

I'm disappointed.  Most of the replies have to do with ways to get around the current system the way it is.  What I'm saying is change the system and disassociate totally the grade from the CAP job.  I don't want to be a Wing or National anything.  I just want to be able to hold the same grade in CAP that I earned in the military.  No other job in CAP is tied to grade except at a Wing or National level.  Nothing in the squadron or group is tied to grade.  Why do the Wing and National jobs have to be the only ones tied to the 0-6 and above positions.  I don't personally care how many 2-stars there are in CAP.  There will be only ONE national commander.  I don't care if colonels abound in CAP, there will still be only one wing commander.  In a squadron, there certainly does not have to be only one officer of the grade that a squadron commander holds.  Why does it have to be so at the wing or national levels?  What I'm saying is have a CONSISTENT policy, no matter what it is.  Don't make it accepting of military grade at SOME levels, and deny it at others.  I can see how CAP might want to cut off accepting grades above those allowed at the top.  For example, I can understand a policy that caps the CAP grades at 2-stars, because CAP isn't allowed to have Lieutentant Generals, Generals, and 5-star Generals of the CAP (??equivalent of General of the Army?).  But why does there have to be a very limited number of Colonels, Bridagier Generals, and Major Generals??  Frankly put, EGO is the only reason that makes sense to me from what I've been told so far.  The reasons I've received so far from command levels amounts to nonsense excuses, not reasons.  Like far too many other excuses in Corporate America, and believe me, the heirarchy of the CAP resembles Corporate America far more than Military America, it's basically, "We do it that way because we do it that way, and don't confuse us with facts."

Someone made a comment about my being badly treated in my home squadron.  Not so.  I've been well treated and well-received in my home squadron.  My beef is with CAP policy from the top, and the attitudes I've had expressed to me about my asking questions and stating my opinions regarding this issue, as well as the lack of involvement of the heatlhcare personnel in CAP.  It's a "don't ask, because we don't tell" kind of policy.
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oldrugged
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« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2007, 12:45:05 PM »

By the way, does anyone know how to change my "position" on this site?  I've gone in and tried to change my "position " from "recruit," but, although it lists it on my profile, I can't find any place in the "change" options that will allow me to change, or even list, my "position."  I don't even know where it came from as it is now.  For the record, I'm far from being a "recruit."
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MIKE
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« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2007, 12:57:50 PM »

Post more.  It's a post based ranking system.
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Mike Johnston
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« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2007, 01:07:18 PM »

Echoing what Mike said. It's absolutely not a reflection of anyone's experience, qualification, or maturity level. Only a reflection of how many times you've contributed to the forum via posts.


However, I bet we could start a thread about the unfair practices of the ranking system here.  >:D
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2007, 02:38:17 PM »

Quote
I don't want to be a Wing or National anything.  I just want to be able to hold the same grade in CAP that I earned in the military.

Quote
Why do the Wing and National jobs have to be the only ones tied to the 0-6 and above positions.

Quote
What I'm saying is have a CONSISTENT policy, no matter what it is... Don't make it accepting of military grade at SOME levels, and deny it at others.  I can see how CAP might want to cut off accepting grades above those allowed at the top.  For example, I can understand a policy that caps the CAP grades at 2-stars, because CAP isn't allowed to have Lieutentant Generals, Generals, and 5-star Generals of the CAP (??equivalent of General of the Army?).  But why does there have to be a very limited number of Colonels, Bridagier Generals, and Major Generals??
So as long as the policy included the grade you want to be?  "Don't make it accepting of military grade as SOME levels, and deny it at others..." - Sorry Lt. Gen So and so, you can't be one...see my point?

Quote
Frankly put, EGO is the only reason that makes sense to me from what I've been told so far.

Quote
By the way, does anyone know how to change my "position" on this site?  For the record, I'm far from being a "recruit."
apparantly...

Quote
Like far too many other excuses in Corporate America, and believe me, the heirarchy of the CAP resembles Corporate America far more than Military America, it's basically, "We do it that way because we do it that way, and don't confuse us with facts."
For a military man, you seem to have a problem with our "regulations."  You do what they say because they say so.  What would you say to one of your Airman that told you that your policies and procedures were bogus and too corporate...LOR?

It's probably a good thing that CAP (a non-profit CORPORATION) is somewhat corporate.

Again, drawing on your experience in the military, I'm sure that you can agree that the amount of responsibility on an O-5 compared to an O-6 is great.  Being promoted to O-6 in any military branch is a BIG deal, as it should be as well in CAP, as it doesn't represent what PME courses you've passed, or what support functions you've held, but rather that significant step into taking a true Command position, with actual responsibilities to the corporation.  You've already stated that you don't want to do anything near that responsibility level. Why is it so "insulting" to be a Lt Col?
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2007, 03:03:50 PM »

For what its worth, I agree with DNall.  Rank earned should be transfered to CAP.  Active duty colonels and generals whose rank transfers over can be placed in a special, nationwide unit and their duty can be to advise the National Commander and wing kings, and to serve as special project officers.

I am sure the USAF would agree to such an arrangement.
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Another former CAP officer
ZigZag911
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« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2007, 05:45:44 PM »

   Why do the Wing and National jobs have to be the only ones tied to the 0-6 and above positions. 

A similar (though by no means equivalent) question has been raised on other threads on this board, questioning why cadets completing their training program (earning the Spaatz) are promoted to cadet colonel, but seniors earning the Wilson can not similarly be promoted to CAP colonel.

We're told the AF wants to limit the number of colonels.

I wonder.....if I read my CAP history correctly, during WWII wing commanders (and no one  else!) were CAP majors....that certainly changed.

Personally, I tend to agree with you....let members wear the grade they've earned...as you say, no one is looking to supplant the established leadership.
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Flying Pig
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« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2007, 06:32:25 PM »

CAP members are always talking about being more like the military.  Where in the military do you have senior officers in units with a lower ranking commander? You dont.  In the miltary, like we all know, you either move up or move out.  The rank of Colonel is to denote someone who is the Wing or Region Command staff correct?  And stars denote the National Command.  Leave it that way.  If someone is so insulted by "starting over" maybe you should have joined CAP when you were a young 2Lt. 

Now what if your a military 1Lt. Pilot/CFI?  CAP regs allow for you to come in as a Capt.  So Im sure you support coming in as your military rank of 1Lt right?  Not accepting CAP Capt?  If you come in as a CAP Lt Col would you support a time frame to meet all the quals of a CAP Lt Col or be faced with reduction?

Im sorry, but in CAP, who cares what rank you have on your shoulder.  If your the Sq Commander, then we all know it and respect that.  Just like in the business world of being a manager.  Its not because some member has a gold oak leaf.  Our rank system denotes positions and qualifications.  Our promotion system is a reward for completing steps in the program.  There is really no "authority" that goes with it as in the military.  Ive said this before, the only authority CAP commanders have is that their subordinates want to be there.  As soon as they want to leave, your authority is over.  And with CAP, just because you were to have four stars on your shoulder doesnt mean you'll ever even be placed to run a squadron.  Nothing says we even have to give you a job in the Sq.

People are always making comments that CAP officers are NOT military officers.   Thats exactly right.  But in the same sense, military officers arent CAP officers.  Join the program, promote though CAP's established criteria and enjoy the path and let your reputation and experience speak for who you are.  There is already advanced promotion criteria set up for people with special quals.  Maybe we can develope another badge that denotes someone who used to be a military officer, aside from your blue DoD sticker.  If thats not enough, wear your blues with ribbons every meeting night.

As far as having Generals as some sort of National Advisor???  Come on!  Thats what I would want.  A think tank of retired generals with no authority.  If they are advisors, then the national Commander still makes the decision.  More meetings?  Thats great!

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JC004
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« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2007, 06:39:55 PM »

Orrrrr, we could kill rank names altogether and have more of a Coast Guard Auxiliary system.   :o

::ducks::
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MIKE
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« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2007, 07:32:18 PM »

Orrrrr, we could kill rank names altogether and have more of a Coast Guard Auxiliary system.   :o

I don't think that solves the problem.  I happen to be a Flotilla Staff Officer (FSO)... butter bar.  At the end of the year if I don't get appointed again I don't loose my bars, I can keep wearing 'em as long as I wear the Past Officer Device on my pocket flap.  Same deal for someone who has  held a much higher office in the past.
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Mike Johnston
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« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2007, 07:43:44 PM »

Orrrrr, we could kill rank names altogether and have more of a Coast Guard Auxiliary system.   :o

I don't think that solves the problem.  I happen to be a Flotilla Staff Officer (FSO)... butter bar.  At the end of the year if I don't get appointed again I don't loose my bars, I can keep wearing 'em as long as I wear the Past Officer Device on my pocket flap.  Same deal for someone who has  held a much higher office in the past.

I just like the lack "Colonel [captain]," etc...encourages a different mindset, I think.

How about this...we have little donut insignia for different levels? 
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Monty
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« Reply #37 on: April 14, 2007, 10:08:56 PM »

Perhaps, if we could *ahem* set egos aside, we should consult with Lt Col George Harrison, CAP.

Aside from having served as the National Staff College Provost in (at least) 2005, he goes by another moniker; and he has NO problem being a CAP Lt Col, so if he has no problem with it, nobody else should.

Oh....about that "other" moniker of CAP Lt Col Harrison's: http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5726
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acarlson
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« Reply #38 on: April 14, 2007, 10:23:15 PM »

I just want to be able to hold the same grade in CAP that I earned in the military.

Ok ... here's real fuel for you flammers...

If I were in the Army... and earned Maj... honorably discharged and
then joined the Air Force ...   would I be able to be a Maj in the Air Force because I was a Maj in the Army?
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Annette Carlson, 1Lt CAP
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JC004
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« Reply #39 on: April 14, 2007, 10:41:26 PM »

Perhaps, if we could *ahem* set egos aside, we should consult with Lt Col George Harrison, CAP.

Aside from having served as the National Staff College Provost in (at least) 2005, he goes by another moniker; and he has NO problem being a CAP Lt Col, so if he has no problem with it, nobody else should.

Oh....about that "other" moniker of CAP Lt Col Harrison's: http://www.af.mil/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5726

But he has all those cool ribbons!   >:D
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bosshawk
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« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2007, 12:52:36 AM »

Possible answer to acarlson's question.  Very unlikely that an Army Major would receive a discharge of any kind: but possible.  Usually, an officer of that rank would either transfer to the Guard or Reserve or go into the inactive reserve.  There are lots of things that would go into those possibilities.

If the Major transferred to the Air Force(done on occasion, but not frequently), there is every reason to assume that the transfer would be at the grade of Major.  I don't know the regs, but it might be that an outright discharge(honorable assumed)might or might not result in the awarding of Major to the person.

Confused: try dealing with Army or Air Force regs on the subject.

The whole point of this thread is that one officer feels slighted because he didn't get his active duty rank in CAP.  Neither did I , but I don't let that stop me from doing my very best for CAP.  I often jokingly say that I took a one rank demotion to join CAP.  Some of you are aware that rank doesn't play much of a role in my life in CAP.
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Paul M. Reed
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2007, 01:06:52 AM »

I just want to be able to hold the same grade in CAP that I earned in the military.

Ok ... here's real fuel for you flammers...

If I were in the Army... and earned Maj... honorably discharged and
then joined the Air Force ...   would I be able to be a Maj in the Air Force because I was a Maj in the Army?

And if you were in the ANG and went into active duty, you might get demoted...so what's your point.  The military is the military, all branches go off the same pay scale.  CAP is not the military, while your qualifications may be of some assistance to the CAP, it really doesn't give you any experience dealing with or commanding volunteers. 

If you demand someone does something in the military they don't really want to do, they do it.  If you demand someone does something in CAP they don't want to do, they leave.  Why can't "you" be happy about joining CAP and try to work your way through CAP instead of trying to circumvent the program?  Perhaps if people stopped thinking they were "better" than it we would have a better promotion system...
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DNall
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« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2007, 01:57:14 AM »

Possible answer to acarlson's question.  Very unlikely that an Army Major would receive a discharge of any kind: but possible.  Usually, an officer of that rank would either transfer to the Guard or Reserve or go into the inactive reserve.  There are lots of things that would go into those possibilities.

If the Major transferred to the Air Force(done on occasion, but not frequently), there is every reason to assume that the transfer would be at the grade of Major.  I don't know the regs, but it might be that an outright discharge(honorable assumed)might or might not result in the awarding of Major to the person.

Confused: try dealing with Army or Air Force regs on the subject.

The whole point of this thread is that one officer feels slighted because he didn't get his active duty rank in CAP.  Neither did I , but I don't let that stop me from doing my very best for CAP.  I often jokingly say that I took a one rank demotion to join CAP.  Some of you are aware that rank doesn't play much of a role in my life in CAP.
Grade doesn't necessarily transfer directly when inter-service transfering. If your MOS/AFSC is applicable so that you are capable of assuming the kinds of positions & leadership levels associated with your grade, and most importantly if there is an open slot you can work your name into... then for the most part they try to retain your grade & date of rank (year group). there's wierd stuff too. You can come over from Army WO pilot to the CG & direct commission to O-2 (which is still a paycut), but if you stay in the Army & got to OCS then they just make you a 2Lt, but then there's a system to resign your commission & convert it to varrious WO grades... you just thought CAP was complicated.

I don't see it as that big a deal. It really doesn't haev anything to do with the grade itself to me. We recognize military grade in general on the basis of the generalized military skill & experience we need in CAP as much as we need pilots. I think it would be a good idea to recognize Col-Gen by letting them keep their grade, and the main reason I say that is they tend (especially in the upper end of that spectrum) to retain influence at verious points on the DoD & state sides of the house that can be utilized to our advantage if we don't run them off from the start.
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oldrugged
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« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2007, 12:44:26 PM »

Don't put words in my mouth.  I don't care one whit how many 5-star generals there are in CAP.  My point is that IF IF IF IF IF IF CAP wants to cut it off at some point, it might be reasonable to cut of CAP grades at the point that CAP is allowed to have grade.  So far as I'm personally concerned, give it all to them if they've earned it.  I also have no argument with those who say, "NO MILITARY RANK CREDIT!"  Fine with me, although I think those who consider CAP a totally different organization with no military comparisons aren't living on this planet.  I agree fully that the CAP missions and military missions are different...somewhat....but I can also tell you that many jobs in the CAP aren't all that different.....mine, for example, except I can do far far far less in CAP than I can in any military branch I've ever belonged to.  I just attended the TX Wing Conference, and all the way up the line, including a discussion with the 2-star Pineda confirmed that there is really NO ROLE in CAP for any healthcare, especially physicians, because of their paranoid fear of liability.  So who pulls the folks out of the planes, the medically-trained ground crew?  If they're EMTs, fine.  But what exactly are they allowed to do.  Liability is liability.  CAP is on lost ground here with this one.  Point of all this is....training is training.  CAP doesn't have any ability to allow the best trained to do anything medically, and their policies are far far far far from consistent, not only with the ranking structure, but many others as well.   
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oldrugged
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« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2007, 12:50:25 PM »

I'm pretty sick of being accused of trying to circumvent the program.  It's the CAP that makes the policies of bringing in people at their military rank, not my policies.  But, their policy is not consistent.  That's my beef.  There is absolutely no logical reason to cut it off at 0-5.  I have no argument with those who say eliminate the program and bring everyone in at E-1 or O-1 and make them work their way up.  IF THOSE WHO ARE CRITICAL HAD READ MY ORIGINAL POSTING, they'd know what I actually said, instead of making unwarranted accusations regarding my motives.  My motive is twofold....but only one applies here....that is to make CAP have a consistent policy regarding their grading system for seniors.  Before you post a reply, at least do me and others the courtesy of knowing what I said in the first place.....go back and read the entire thing!!
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Monty
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« Reply #45 on: April 15, 2007, 01:56:51 PM »

I'm pretty sick of being accused of trying to circumvent the program.  It's the CAP that makes the policies of bringing in people at their military rank, not my policies.  But, their policy is not consistent.  That's my beef.  There is absolutely no logical reason to cut it off at 0-5.  I have no argument with those who say eliminate the program and bring everyone in at E-1 or O-1 and make them work their way up.  IF THOSE WHO ARE CRITICAL HAD READ MY ORIGINAL POSTING, they'd know what I actually said, instead of making unwarranted accusations regarding my motives.  My motive is twofold....but only one applies here....that is to make CAP have a consistent policy regarding their grading system for seniors.  Before you post a reply, at least do me and others the courtesy of knowing what I said in the first place.....go back and read the entire thing!!

Not too sure to whom you are speaking, but you'll likely figure out the "quote" feature when using this board, in time.  :)

With respect to my post (here: http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=1924.msg31893#msg31893), I really think it bears repeating; perhaps this is the gentleman with whom you might enjoy speaking about your suggestion(s).  Aside from being very approachable, he has a very interesting approach to the same situation you note.  (I won't give his words away...they're his and best heard from his mouth.)

:)
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brasda91
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« Reply #46 on: April 15, 2007, 02:41:29 PM »

I hadn't really given any thought to this subject.  But, I don't think any Senior member should be automatically promoted in CAP according to his/her active/reserve/ng rank or because of their civilian profession.  I've seen this in my squadron.  You have a new senior member join and get automatic promotion to 1Lt. because they're a nurse.  But the other seniors who joined as a SM are a 2Lt. and have a good working knowledge of CAP are having to explain CAP to the 1Lt.   The current rank structure is designed on your experience and knowledge of CAP, and I agree that's the way it should be.  I think we all agree that the only reason Wing Commanders are automatically promoted up to Col. is to have a senior ranking senior member in charge of the Wing.

I do agree of doing away of the rank all together, as previously suggested, and simply use the title of your job, all the way up the chain-of-command.
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #47 on: April 15, 2007, 04:19:31 PM »

I do agree of doing away of the rank all together, as previously suggested, and simply use the title of your job, all the way up the chain-of-command.

NO!  Rank was part of the original concept.  Leave it alone.  If you want to change rank, then change the PRO DEV.  Make it more difficult to become a LTCOL.  Make it that only CAPT's can be SQD CMDRS, after they complete CAP SPECIFIC Corespondence courses. 

Perhaps instead of automatic promotions, maybe they will be more difficult.  I am all for increasing the time in grade to make CAPT and MAJOR.   
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MattPHS2002
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« Reply #48 on: April 15, 2007, 06:00:39 PM »

Quote
NO!  Rank was part of the original concept.  Leave it alone.  If you want to change rank, then change the PRO DEV.  Make it more difficult to become a LTCOL.  Make it that only CAPT's can be SQD CMDRS, after they complete CAP SPECIFIC Correspondence courses.    

As it stands we only have ECI-13 that is required now and we have enough trouble, as evidenced by other threads in getting folks to take them, I hardly see people signing up for extra hassle that can be AFIDL, more people get what they applied for than don't but its only the times that the system breaks down that we hear about....
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1Lt Matt Gamret

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« Reply #49 on: April 15, 2007, 06:29:18 PM »


As it stands we only have ECI-13 that is required now and we have enough trouble, as evidenced by other threads in getting folks to take them... 

Matt,  I'm going to disagree with you here...  my experience is that we don't have trouble getting our members to take them.... our folks are at the ready and very willing to tackle the courses...
 our trouble lies with the red tape and lost paperwork at the middlemen, ie., Wing...  AFIADL and the TCO who administers the tests get the job done quickly, when, and I repeat *when* they receive the paperwork... 

in the last 12 months, I've enrolled at least 23 members in AFIADL courses... most of them the 13... others include ES, Safety, PAO, and Mission Scanner... (that includes 3 of my own courses) ...our bottleneck has always been at our Wing HQ ...  (let us lay the responsibliity where it belongs)... which causes frustrated members, who then give up on trying to get the course and/or test... and as a result, frustrated in further progressing in PD...

<sidenote:  after alot of followup, I have had success either circumventing the bottleneck, or simply getting a duplicate course or test sent out again, so that the member can and has successfully completed it.>

but alas, not the topic of this thread... so BUMP!
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Annette Carlson, 1Lt CAP
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arajca
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« Reply #50 on: April 15, 2007, 06:40:55 PM »

I'll chime in here about AFIADL. I've had very good success in getting folks enrolled (typically 2 weeks to received their materials after submitting the enrollment) and receiving tests (again about two weeks - including the pit stop at wing). You really can't do much better than that.

Oldrugged, CAP does have a consistant policy for military promotions - equal grade up to LT Col, anyone over that only gets Lt Col. It is applied equally throughout CAP without regard to which branch of the military the member comes from.

One major issue you're overlooking is those CAP members who are Col or higher have a great deal of knowledge about Civil Air Patrol. Military personnel, with a few exceptions, do not. Also, the grades of Col and higher indicate someone has served as a corporate officer. That is uniform and consistant throughout CAP. If I have a serious policy type question, I can go to almost any Col and get a good answer. I can do this because of the requirements to attain the grade of Col. If you open it up to military officers, the indicator of knowledge about CAP goes away.

Besides, all the military officers I know of in CAP who were O-6 of higher don't have a problem with being "demoted" to O-5. They understand the reasons behind it and accept them as valid. Just like they understand the requirements and reasons behind most military grade levels.
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MattPHS2002
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« Reply #51 on: April 15, 2007, 07:04:12 PM »


As it stands we only have ECI-13 that is required now and we have enough trouble, as evidenced by other threads in getting folks to take them... 

Matt,  I'm going to disagree with you here...  my experience is that we don't have trouble getting our members to take them.... our folks are at the ready and very willing to tackle the courses...
 our trouble lies with the red tape and lost paperwork at the middlemen, ie., Wing...  AFIADL and the TCO who administers the tests get the job done quickly, when, and I repeat *when* they receive the paperwork... 

in the last 12 months, I've enrolled at least 23 members in AFIADL courses... most of them the 13... others include ES, Safety, PAO, and Mission Scanner... (that includes 3 of my own courses) ...our bottleneck has always been at our Wing HQ ...  (let us lay the responsibliity where it belongs)... which causes frustrated members, who then give up on trying to get the course and/or test... and as a result, frustrated in further progressing in PD...

<sidenote:  after alot of followup, I have had success either circumventing the bottleneck, or simply getting a duplicate course or test sent out again, so that the member can and has successfully completed it.>

but alas, not the topic of this thread... so BUMP!

I stand corrected. Never said that it did not improve in that time, the whole web based this is nice.... very nice

Good old PAWG, I did get the books quickly and I'm going to our Group Admin (she used to be my Sq. Admin as well) so I know I should get my test this time, unless it hits aformentioned bottleneck
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1Lt Matt Gamret

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« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2007, 07:46:57 PM »

I do agree of doing away of the rank all together, as previously suggested, and simply use the title of your job, all the way up the chain-of-command.

Ummmmm ... well, okay.  Let's do away with yours, then, and that of everyone else who thinks we shouldn't have rank.   ;D  Me, I earned mine, and I would prefer to keep it.  (Okay, being retired, I'm not in any danger of losing it, but you know what I mean.)

Jack
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Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
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« Reply #53 on: April 15, 2007, 08:06:11 PM »

 Speaking as one of the end-user in question, 1LT Carlson has done a great job IMHO of clearing up the apparent bottleneck that existed previously.

 I'm personally aware of a number of AFIADL horror stories from the past resulting from said bottlenecks and experienced a pretty significant one myself a number of years ago.
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MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
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« Reply #54 on: April 15, 2007, 08:57:08 PM »

We've had little trouble with AFIADL. If your personnel officer doesn't have it down pat by now, or if you aren't willing to do your homework & guide them thru the process, then you don't deserve to take it. That's part of what's being tested IMO.

As far as officer grade coming over... we are a military based program with a deficiency of military training, skill, and experience. That means they bring a critical skill to our organization that's at least as important as when a CFI joins, possibly more.

It's also disrespectful to the hand that feeds us!!!! You understand w/o the respect & appreciation of the real mil for us, they will ask for less money to fund us, and we are dead in the water. That should be a key part of the thinking on this.

For people that aren't getting this... CAP is a military based organization that is supposed to function just like the military. I understand there are difs, particularly the legality that you are not a member of the armed services, but in every other sense it is supposed to be just like you are in the military. If your unit isn't functioning like that, then that's something to work on, and that's where we need the assistance of prior-service personnel, that's why CAP recognizes their grade.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #55 on: April 15, 2007, 10:14:11 PM »

Sorry, I've seen no evidence that former military officers of any grade are any better at fixing the problems in CAP than non-prior service and in some cases make things worse.  This isn't unique to former military as civilians that come in expecting a gung ho military organization are just as likely to mess things up. 

I don't see any great advantage in letting in a few Col. and General grade people ikeep their rank as a way to improve the organization overall.  Would it kill the organization?  Probably not, but it would cause some issues.  We already have enough problems with prior service people thinking their CAP rank is more real than that earned by non-prior service.  No need to make it worse. 
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CAPOfficer
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« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2007, 06:09:28 AM »

Grade has always been an important part of our organization and in my opinion always will be.  For those that feel grade has no place in our organization or it should be thrown aside, simply resign your grade and become a senior member. 

No one is ďforcedĒ to wear grade or to be promoted; if you sincerely do not wish to be a CAP officer, you donít have to.  I assure you, the rest of us will not be offended by your decision to toss it aside.

Those of us, who regard our grade in CAP as meaningful, we will continue to wear it.

As far as advancing members to the grade of colonel and above by virtue of previously holding that grade in the active duty, guard, reserve or any other entity, forget it.  CAP has a long standing tradition of reserving those grades for individuals serving in corporate officer positions.  For those who want to be a colonel or possibly even a general, the method is clear, all you have to do is become a corporate officer at the correct level in the organization to which matches the grade you wish to be.

There are thousands of members who will never receive the grade of colonel in CAP let alone anything higher.  Some of these members have served for decades knowing full well this realization but never complain.  At the last National Board, a couple of members who had flown on anti-submarine patrols during World War II were advanced to the grade of colonel.  Even this was a major exception to the rule.

An item which everyone took note of at the last National Board was the request and approval of extensions to the terms of office for wing & region commanders.  This request was submitted because of the problems in filling these positions with qualified individuals; positions which lead to the advancement in grade, that of colonel.  Yes, it also leads to an increased responsibility and a firm commitment of time as well (normally four years, unless you canít find a qualified individual to replace you, then you may be kept on even longer).

The bottom-line, if you want to be a colonel or more, by all means step up to the plate and become a wing or region commander for four or more years.  Afterwards, if you still feel that anyone (or everyone) should be a colonel (or more), you can utilize you new position on the National Board to make that recommendation; until then, the line begins at being a CAP officer first.
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SAR-EMT1
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« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2007, 06:28:19 AM »

I do agree of doing away of the rank all together, as previously suggested, and simply use the title of your job, all the way up the chain-of-command.

Ummmmm ... well, okay.  Let's do away with yours, then, and that of everyone else who thinks we shouldn't have rank.   ;D  Me, I earned mine, and I would prefer to keep it.  (Okay, being retired, I'm not in any danger of losing it, but you know what I mean.)

Jack


Nah, JACK, we'll just refer to you as " THE ADMIRAL"   :D


As for the Military - CAP rank issue:  Higher Rank means more responsibility.
True we have Senior Officers in units with subordinate ranking Commanders, but for the most part those Senior Officers got there. -- Even the Prior Service types I know still work hard to complete the CAP PD Levels. -- they dont just get the advanced promotion and sit still.

If you are willing to complete the PD levels AND serve CAP at a higher office - Wing  Region or National then yes, pin on the Eagles. But if not then wear the Oak Leaves. Most prior service types accept this. And for the most part arent holding high offices within the organization. - My hat is off to those folks that do. Along with my thanks.

Im in the CG AUX, I hold a staff position and wear the insignia, but I dont refer to myself as a CG j.g.   
I care more about advancing in the PD and doing a good job as a Personnel Officer then I do about what is on my shoulder.
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C. A. Edgar
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« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2007, 08:08:32 AM »

Sorry, I've seen no evidence that former military officers of any grade are any better at fixing the problems in CAP than non-prior service and in some cases make things worse.  This isn't unique to former military as civilians that come in expecting a gung ho military organization are just as likely to mess things up. 

I don't see any great advantage in letting in a few Col. and General grade people ikeep their rank as a way to improve the organization overall.  Would it kill the organization?  Probably not, but it would cause some issues.  We already have enough problems with prior service people thinking their CAP rank is more real than that earned by non-prior service.  No need to make it worse. 
I really don't know why you have such issues with prior service officers. I don't know if you've had a bad personal experience or what, but deal with it & move on.

We are ALWAYS going to recognize prior service grade if for no other reason than the political paying amage to the hand that feeds us.

We SHOULD do this for a couple other reasons, like not insulting them for one by telling them they are coming into a military based organization formally affiliated with and sponsored by the Air Force but their military career isn't important? That'd cause them to walk in a heartbeat. They've sacrificed their adult lives for BS pay & BS treatment at the hands of their govt. The luckiest of them gets screwed over worse in their first few years than you ever will in your entire CAP career, and what they get to show for it that other retirees don't is their grade & chest full of medals. So No, we're not going to deny them that & in turn make them feel unwelcome.

From a more practical purpose though, we need them here explicitly to militarize the program. We want it to function like the military & we want them to help make it that way. So we recognize their experience the same as we do pilots.
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2007, 03:02:56 PM »

Sorry, I've seen no evidence that former military officers of any grade are any better at fixing the problems in CAP than non-prior service and in some cases make things worse.  This isn't unique to former military as civilians that come in expecting a gung ho military organization are just as likely to mess things up. 

I don't see any great advantage in letting in a few Col. and General grade people ikeep their rank as a way to improve the organization overall.  Would it kill the organization?  Probably not, but it would cause some issues.  We already have enough problems with prior service people thinking their CAP rank is more real than that earned by non-prior service.  No need to make it worse. 


River:

I'm kind of surprised at your comment.

I have run into many CAP members who have not had prior service experience, or whose experience was in the lower enlisted grades.  They have a very steep learning curve to understand how to staff issues, how to write an operations order, the relationship between commanders and their staffs,  and the relationships of staff officers among themselves.  Having former officers in the mix, who have done the officer thing for real, clearly improves the overall performance of CAP and its members.

Not to even touch on the fact that cadets learn how things should be done in the military from someone who actually did it, rather than someone who read the same textbook they did, and who never served as an active-duty officer.

And military guys know a lot more about CAP than you might think.  The problem is, they know what CAP is supposed to be doing, and are surprised at the sometimes-inadequate capability that some CAP members and units exhibit.
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Another former CAP officer
oldrugged
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« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2007, 05:38:20 PM »

BOY!!  Had no idea that those of us who came into the CAP at a military grade didn't earn the grade!  Wow....and mine was in the USAF, too.  Incidentally, I was picked up as 0-5 in the Navy a year early, and was brought into the USAF as an 0-5.  So much for one service not honoring the grades from previous services.  Much of the banter here is irrelavent to the original topic.  As for the 'eagles' in the CAP 'knowing all,' so they deserve the eagles, I would suggest that, from the ones I've talked with have to refer to someone else to get me the answers.  If it isn't a direct question regarding uniforms or flying, they don't know, especially if it has to do with anything in the medical end of the CAP.  Maybe that's because there really isn't a medical end of the CAP.
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Rangersigo
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« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2007, 05:45:53 PM »

Sorry, I've seen no evidence that former military officers of any grade are any better at fixing the problems in CAP than non-prior service and in some cases make things worse.  This isn't unique to former military as civilians that come in expecting a gung ho military organization are just as likely to mess things up. 

I don't see any great advantage in letting in a few Col. and General grade people ikeep their rank as a way to improve the organization overall.  Would it kill the organization?  Probably not, but it would cause some issues.  We already have enough problems with prior service people thinking their CAP rank is more real than that earned by non-prior service.  No need to make it worse. 


Wow - you have got to be kidding me.  The formal professional military education that they go through makes the CAP weekend training look like comparring kindergarten to college.  I have never seen so much nepotism and cronyism from non-military members in CAP than I have anywhere in my life.  It is more a gray hair gentlemen's retirement club than an operational organization - and this is not from the military members>>>>
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #62 on: April 16, 2007, 06:33:08 PM »

BOY!!  Had no idea that those of us who came into the CAP at a military grade didn't earn the grade!  Wow....and mine was in the USAF, too.

Congratulations, you were promoted to O-6 in the Air Force.  We can all respect that.  But you seem to  be trying to emphasize that here, as though it alone will bring legitimacy to your argument.

Quote
Incidentally, I was picked up as 0-5 in the Navy a year early, and was brought into the USAF as an 0-5.  So much for one service not honoring the grades from previous services.

That's not what was said.  It was said that it is not always the case.  In fact one poster went to great lengths to explain it.

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Much of the banter here is irrelavent to the original topic.

Not true.  Your original topic was simply stating that you think CAP should have a consistent policy regarding prior/current military members promotions.

They do, as been pointed out.  All members of the military can be appointed to their prior service or current service grade, up to Lt Col.  CAP Grade of Col or Higher is reserved for corporate officers.  You are basically feeling "left out," "deligitimized," or rather "insulted," because your grade isn't in the "approved" grades.  If you retired as a Captain, I doubt we'd be hearing this.

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As for the 'eagles' in the CAP 'knowing all,' so they deserve the eagles, I would suggest that, from the ones I've talked with have to refer to someone else to get me the answers.

And just like in the military, the commander doesn't know all the details of every single persons job.  Correct me if I'm wrong here, but as an O-6 you were probably in charge of something.  Did you know who was working on a specific shift, or did you just concern yourself with that the schedule was filled?  If you couldn't answer someones question, didn't you send them to someone who could?  It sounds like you are upset because the Wing Commander sent you to talk to someone who could answer your questions?

No one here is trying to "deligitimize" your former grade.  No one said you didn't earn it.  What has been said is that such promotions aren't really earned in regards to CAP.  You didn't check off all the boxes that non-priors did.

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Wow - you have got to be kidding me.  The formal professional military education that they go through makes the CAP weekend training look like comparring kindergarten to college. 

Many CAP members are also graduates of Squadron Officer School, ACSC and AWC.

What people are contesting is that the PME doesn't have any CAP specific information included in them.  One would assume that someone wearing CAP Lt Col would have an inkling about CAP.  What happens in this case?  "Oh you'll have to go ask that 2d Lt, because I don't know."  Point brought up about the "eagles" above.

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I have never seen so much nepotism and cronyism from non-military members in CAP than I have anywhere in my life.

Hmmm...favoritism towards people who know about CAP from CAP members. Right, people that have gone through the CAP program and have more than a few months experience think that people should have a knowledge about CAP before being promoted. 

Last I checked, even at your job, someone who knows more about how to do your job will get promoted over you.  Is that nepotism? No, nepotism is promoting someone for the plain and simple they are related to you.  Ever hear of the boss that hires his nephew over the guy with the actual experience? Cryonism? Nah, I don't think so, they aren't wanting to promote someone solely because they are friends.  Maybe a more suitable word can be found.

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It is more a gray hair gentlemen's retirement club than an operational organization - and this is not from the military members>>>>

What get's tiring is everyone trying to make CAP into the Air Force.  If we wanted to be in the Air Force, we'd join.  What we want to do is help our communities as volunteers.

What makes an O-6 any better than a private sector CEO, or a fortune 500 company CFO?  How about a police commissioner?  Fire Cheif? College Dean?  Most have the same, if not more responsibility than said O-6, they don't get to be promoted to Lt Col?  We don't tell them they didn't "earn" their grade, and they are more than happy to work through the program.  Where do you draw the line?

If anything, people here are voting in favor of not having "special appointment" promotions(which would be consistent, and pertains to your original post).  If you look at the requirments for a CAP Lt Col  for everyone else, it sets the expectation that the person has CAP experience.  i.e. specialty track ratings, CAP specific courses, time in a staff position, teaching other people, etc.

So all of the posts here have been an opinion on which way to go if any.  Most agreed with one of your original posts saying start everyone at "O-1."
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« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2007, 07:30:38 PM »

No one here is trying to "deligitimize" your former grade.  No one said you didn't earn it.  What has been said is that such promotions aren't really earned in regards to CAP.  You didn't check off all the boxes that non-priors did.
Do you understand that view is insulting? The fact is they checked off more valuable & difficult boxes over a period many times longer than it took you to stand around with your name next to a position on a roster & no accountability that you do anything.

Plus, if you'll check that equiv chart you'll see their military courses count for everything they'd have to do in CAP. The only thing that could slow them down is time in command/staff positions, which again is a matter of a name on a list & not an accomplishment of any kind.

Quote
Quote
Wow - you have got to be kidding me.  The formal professional military education that they go through makes the CAP weekend training look like comparring kindergarten to college. 
Many CAP members are also graduates of Squadron Officer School, ACSC and AWC.

What people are contesting is that the PME doesn't have any CAP specific information included in them.  One would assume that someone wearing CAP Lt Col would have an inkling about CAP.  What happens in this case?  "Oh you'll have to go ask that 2d Lt, because I don't know."  Point brought up about the "eagles" above.
That is eaxctly reading from the same textbook & not experienceing the real training. And by the way the information in every PME I've ever taken is EXTREMELY applicable to CAP. Granted there will be tiny places that are not, and you should take those as better understanding of your boss. However, when you read in AWC about joint operations, you should be thinking ICS. When you read in ACSC about strategic resource mgmt, you should be thinking about CAP resources, when you read about core values & interpersonal communications in SOS, you should be thinking about Sq Mgmt. It doens't take a whole lot of imagination to understand exactly how these things apply. And by the way, they are not technical courses about how to manage CAP, neither are tehy technical courses about how to be a better Security Forces offficer or space missle officer. They are courses about generalized officership, and that should apply 99.995% of the time to what you are supposed to be doing in CAP. If it doesn't, then the CAP around you is wrong and part of why you take the course is to learn how to make it right.

Quote
Quote
I have never seen so much nepotism and cronyism from non-military members in CAP than I have anywhere in my life.

Hmmm...favoritism towards people who know about CAP from CAP members. Right, people that have gone through the CAP program and have more than a few months experience think that people should have a knowledge about CAP before being promoted. 

Last I checked, even at your job, someone who knows more about how to do your job will get promoted over you.  Is that nepotism? No, nepotism is promoting someone for the plain and simple they are related to you.  Ever hear of the boss that hires his nephew over the guy with the actual experience? Cryonism? Nah, I don't think so, they aren't wanting to promote someone solely because they are friends.  Maybe a more suitable word can be found.
NO no, that's not what he said. He said that behavior was rampant in CAP toward everyone, prior-service or not & regardless of CAP experience, and implied that prior-serivce officer are not as likly to be guitly of this, which maybe yes & maybe now. Either way it's a very serious breakdown in professionalism & core values best addressed thru application of military leadership.


Quote
It is more a gray hair gentlemen's retirement club than an operational organization - and this is not from the military members>>>>
What get's tiring is everyone trying to make CAP into the Air Force.  If we wanted to be in the Air Force, we'd join.  What we want to do is help our communities as volunteers.

What makes an O-6 any better than a private sector CEO, or a fortune 500 company CFO?  How about a police commissioner?  Fire Cheif? College Dean?  Most have the same, if not more responsibility than said O-6, they don't get to be promoted to Lt Col?  We don't tell them they didn't "earn" their grade, and they are more than happy to work through the program.  Where do you draw the line?

If anything, people here are voting in favor of not having "special appointment" promotions(which would be consistent, and pertains to your original post).  If you look at the requirments for a CAP Lt Col  for everyone else, it sets the expectation that the person has CAP experience.  i.e. specialty track ratings, CAP specific courses, time in a staff position, teaching other people, etc.

So all of the posts here have been an opinion on which way to go if any.  Most agreed with one of your original posts saying start everyone at "O-1."[/quote]
You did join the Air Force, you joine d the Air Force Auxiliary & you knew it when you came in. You knew there were uniforms, grade, saluting, and that you'd be volunteering to be part of a paramilitary system with which you'd be required to comply with. There are many other organizations better suited to volunteering your time to help your community, that is not what CAP is about, it's merely a side-effect of what we do.

And would you join the military? Were you good enough? Cause these people did join & did sacrifice the bulk of their lives to that career with little ever in return, and they were promoted on merit alone. You as a CAP member were promoted for paying your dues & showing up, merit never entered the picture.

Do other professions sometimes bring valuable skills, sure sometimes & you can put them in for a direct appointment based on that useful skill. They aren't experts though on the military system that we are supposed to be following.

Certainly military officers have to make some adjustments dealing with CAP & it is a real big let down when you realize the quality of the organization, but you soldier on & make the best of it while trying to nudge it toward better ground as you go. It's difficult, because you deal with people along the way that don't understand why their community service club has to be based on the military.

Just for perspective, I came up the CAP side first & my CAP grade/experience is much higher than my military grade, but I've seen both sides & can assure you that CAP leavves a lot to be desired in meeting the quality & training standards necessary to do the job.

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Major Carrales
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« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2007, 07:31:08 PM »

A post for continued Civility  ;)

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« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2007, 07:37:08 PM »

First, I see no problem with granting military grade appointments up to full Colonel.  I can understand why we don't, it's our policy, plain and simple.  It isn't demeaning, insulting, or degrading (well...okay, it kinda is the latter, technically).

As far as it being discriminatory, I think you should ask the person who joins as Enlisted grade.   I realize the policies on the Enlisted side of the house are going to be changing (about darn time too), but can you imagine the outcry if it worked the same way for military Officer appointments?
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dwb
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« Reply #66 on: April 16, 2007, 07:39:08 PM »

I'm fine with the policy as is.  Col -> Maj Gen have special meaning in the CAP world, and more importantly, CAP rank has only its shape and color in common with USAF rank.

Because CAP is a military auxiliary, there is a strong force in our CAP culture to want to somehow equate CAP rank with USAF rank. Obviously, it's not going to be an exact match, but the "rank commensurate with responsibility" thing comes from that.

That said, CAP officer grade is its own thing. The senior member professional development program is what it is, and progression in CAP rank means something different than progression in military rank.

While the desire is strong to align ourselves with our military brethren, we're not military, and we shouldn't pretend that CAP officer rank has some sort of equivalent outside of the CAP officer world. It doesn't, and, some would say, it shouldn't.

Good on you, Colonel, for making O-6.  But that doesn't mean there ought to be a one-to-one mapping of military grade to CAP grade, especially when CAP has assigned a specific meaning to people holding the grades of Col, Brig Gen, and Maj Gen.

You can't be a CAP Colonel not because we don't want to respect your accomplishments, but rather, because the structure of the organization doesn't accommodate it.

Nitpickers note: yes, I know, I used grade/rank interchangeably.  Don't hate me for it.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #67 on: April 16, 2007, 08:05:20 PM »

Do you understand that view is insulting? The fact is they checked off more valuable & difficult boxes over a period many times longer than it took you to stand around with your name next to a position on a roster & no accountability that you do anything.

See, you are already saying that someone with military experience is more valuable to the organization than someone who doesn't.  Not always the case.  You are also confusing the difference between a poorly managed squadron and one that isn't.  In one that isn't, staff members take their roles seriously and have accountability.

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Plus, if you'll check that equiv chart you'll see their military courses count for everything they'd have to do in CAP. The only thing that could slow them down is time in command/staff positions, which again is a matter of a name on a list & not an accomplishment of any kind.

Except SLS and CLC, which teaches about CAP specifically.  When they get to the upper levels, the PME kicks in, because as you state below the management theories etc, apply broadly.

I'm glad to know that you think that running a squadron/group/wing is not an accomplishment of any kind, and those in those positions are just names on a list.

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That is exactly reading from the same textbook & not experienceing the real training. And by the way the information in every PME I've ever taken is EXTREMELY applicable to CAP. Granted there will be tiny places that are not, and you should take those as better understanding of your boss. However, when you read in AWC about joint operations, you should be thinking ICS. When you read in ACSC about strategic resource mgmt, you should be thinking about CAP resources, when you read about core values & interpersonal communications in SOS, you should be thinking about Sq Mgmt. It doesn't take a whole lot of imagination to understand exactly how these things apply. And by the way, they are not technical courses about how to manage CAP, neither are they technical courses about how to be a better Security Forces offficer or space missle officer. They are courses about generalized officership, and that should apply 99.995% of the time to what you are supposed to be doing in CAP. If it doesn't, then the CAP around you is wrong and part of why you take the course is to learn how to make it right.

Correct.  Again, no one is doubting their abilities, or what they've earned or 'checked off.'  I would be glad to have a handful of experience military personnel in my squadron. 

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NO no, that's not what he said. He said that behavior was rampant in CAP toward everyone, prior-service or not & regardless of CAP experience, and implied that prior-serivce officer are not as likly to be guitly of this, which maybe yes & maybe now. Either way it's a very serious breakdown in professionalism & core values best addressed thru application of military leadership.

Please clarify...he said nepotism and cryonism...

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You did join the Air Force, you joined the Air Force Auxiliary & you knew it when you came in.

I joined Civil Air Patrol, a non-profit volunteer organization chartered by congress, that happens to perform missions for the USAF, and during the times it does hold the title of USAF Auxiliary.

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There are many other organizations better suited to volunteering your time to help your community, that is not what CAP is about, it's merely a side-effect of what we do.

So if CAP isn't for helping the community, what is it about?  What other organizations would you recommend?  Boy, I thought in these past 10 years I was helping my community...all the local cadets, all the local ES missions, all the local disaster relief, all the local volunteering at various community events...

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And would you join the military? Were you good enough? Cause these people did join & did sacrifice the bulk of their lives to that career with little ever in return, and they were promoted on merit alone. You as a CAP member were promoted for paying your dues & showing up, merit never entered the picture.

I was going to join the military, however, they don't like to take you if you have a steel rod in your spine.  So yes, I was/am good enough in aptitude and intelligence, and to this day I can do better on a PT exam than a lot of military members.

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Do other professions sometimes bring valuable skills, sure sometimes & you can put them in for a direct appointment based on that useful skill. They aren't experts though on the military system that we are supposed to be following.

But if management skills and leadership skills are so easily transferred over to CAP then the customs and courtesies stuff should be a cinch for them to pick up.  Our 'military' system only vaguely resembles the military.

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Certainly military officers have to make some adjustments dealing with CAP & it is a real big let down when you realize the quality of the organization, but you soldier on & make the best of it while trying to nudge it toward better ground as you go. It's difficult, because you deal with people along the way that don't understand why their community service club has to be based on the military.

Sometimes I wonder why my 'community service club' is trying to become the AD Air Force.  There is a reason that this organization is comprised of volunteers.  Because those volunteers want to improve their nation as volunteers, not enlisted members of the military.

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I've seen both sides & can assure you that CAP leaves a lot to be desired in meeting the quality & training standards necessary to do the job.

Again, this all depends on your experience in CAP.  I have had Active Duty Officers tell me that the 'CAP PME' courses I have directed have been the most professional thing they've experienced in their time in the military.  It all depends on who is doing the job.

I have been to some awful CAP training, and I will be the first to admit that a lot of CAP members do not have the aptitude to do what their 'grade' recommends.  So, I agree with the orgininal poster that something should be done about the way 'grade' is earned in CAP, I just think that it should be positional or start everyone at the beginning.

 ;)

EDIT 1: Change is to isn't first paragraph.
EDIT 2: Put in the edits :)
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dwb
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« Reply #68 on: April 16, 2007, 08:42:29 PM »

You as a CAP member were promoted for paying your dues & showing up, merit never entered the picture.

Do you understand that this view is insulting?  Yes, CAP has its trouble children, but the vast majority of CAP field grade officers I've seen have been hard-working, dedicated, professional volunteers that have donated their time, talent, and sweat to the organization.

They earned their grade based on years of meritorious service in staff and command positions, at professional development activities, and some through the long, thankless, unpaid hours of emergency services.

How can you say merit never enters the picture?  So you've met come CAP officers that didn't impress you... well let me say, I've met some military folks I'm not impressed with.  There, now we've made our generalizations and can dispense with such things.

There are many other organizations better suited to volunteering your time to help your community, that is not what CAP is about, it's merely a side-effect of what we do.

So what is CAP about, oh wise CAP expert?  I'm pretty sure CAP was founded so citizens, civilians, could help their country and their community.
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Rangersigo
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« Reply #69 on: April 16, 2007, 08:59:45 PM »

I think we are getting off track here.  I would argue that this is not just an issue with advancement or promotion based on military service.  I have seen a SM with no military service go to being a Wing CC in 5 years.  Did he really do all the jobs that need to be done to reach that level in 5 short years in CAP? Maybe.  Did he bring in the fact that he is well accomplished on the commercial side and has led organizations operationally, you bet.  Was he advanced quick because of this - absolutely.  Do I have a problem with it - not in the least.

I can tell you from personal experience that I am more than likely on my way out of CAP.  Why, because of a lack of standards, professionalism, and yes nepotism, cronyism and self promotion.  Please no definitions - I know exactly what each mean and am using them VERY correctly.

I never expected CAP to be like the military - I simply wanted to continue to serve as I left the Active Army due to a combat related injury - and if you did not experience something similar - hold your tong on this as you are not qualified in any small way to comment.

I joined to fulfill a side of me that was lost because of this and to provide an example to my sons who will not remember when dad got up in the morning and came back a year later.  And why I did it. 

What I experienced was an organization that was not concerned about mission, men (women), and then themselves, but have it backward in every way.  My point was that this is a simple concept that most that have served in the military learn early on, usually from a CSM that bumps them on the head when he says it.

As far as former military members being able to wear the grade when the join - absolutely!!  They earned it just like the badges and unfortunately the scars.  If a solely CAP member can't come to grips with that - and my case they could not.  That is where the lack of service in a uniformed service shines bright.  For me, I was advanced to CAPT based on my years of service, and if you think for a minute that my qualifications are less than a SM who came into CAP cold, you are right!  But how long do you think that will take to be reversed?

Again - a lot of people serve - in CAP, Active Military, wherever, if they out rank me they get a salute and the courtesy due them.  If they do not, I give them everything that I have learned and expereinced.
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dwb
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« Reply #70 on: April 16, 2007, 09:44:45 PM »

Rangersigo,

I don't know how long you have been in CAP.  I'm coming up on 15 years myself, and my paltry 15 years pales in comparison to others on this board.

I think what you'll find is that, at any given time, somewhere up or down the chain of command, there are bozos.  They're at all levels, and they work just as you've described (putting mission and men behind self).

However, there is also the silent majority -- the volunteers who just want to help.  Parents, former cadets, prior service, pilots, radio geeks, random people off the street, they're all here, working hard to conduct the business of CAP.

If you want to last decades in this organization, I'm convinced there are only two ways to do so:

1. Be a backstabbing ladder-climber (which doesn't work in all cases)
2. Be part of the silent majority, and just do your best for the organization

I'd like to think I'm firmly in category 2 (heck, if I'm in category 1, I'm not doing a very a good job of moving up the ladder!)

Our participation will vary based on life and CAP political circumstances, but we're always here.  I've met more good people in CAP than bad, and even the bad weren't all that bad, most were just annoying.

FWIW, another perspective on the issues you bring up.

Cheers,
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #71 on: April 16, 2007, 10:07:35 PM »

I think we are getting off track here.  I would argue that this is not just an issue with advancement or promotion based on military service.  I have seen a SM with no military service go to being a Wing CC in 5 years.  Did he really do all the jobs that need to be done to reach that level in 5 short years in CAP? Maybe.  Did he bring in the fact that he is well accomplished on the commercial side and has led organizations operationally, you bet.  Was he advanced quick because of this - absolutely.  Do I have a problem with it - not in the least.

I agree, we are getting off track here, but I would say that the "underlying" issue here is that many CAP members feel that a lot of prior military personnel join the organization without a true understanding of what it is (actually, how many of us really do...), request, sometimes demand their promotions, just to turn around and leave after realizing that it isn't what they bargained for, or 'get' their grade and never do anything productive for the organization. 

CAP isn't about being in the limelight or huge tasks you perform, but the small tasks we perform on a day to day basis.  We can't say "we took over Iraq," but we can say, "We made a difference in that kid's life today." 

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I can tell you from personal experience that I am more than likely on my way out of CAP.  Why, because of a lack of standards, professionalism, and nepotism, cronyism and self promotion.

That's a shame, I'm sorry if you feel that way, not every unit is like that.  Frequently those in a position to help don't get themselves into a position to change the very things they don't like.

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I never expected CAP to be like the military - I simply wanted to continue to serve as I left the Active Army due to a combat related injury - and if you did not experience something similar - hold your tong on this as you are not qualified in any small way to comment.

Thank you for your service and sacrifice.

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I joined to fulfill a side of me that was lost because of this and to provide an example to my sons who will not remember when dad got up in the morning and came back a year later.  And why I did it.

I'm sure that your sons will be proud of who you are and what you've done no matter what.  Again, thank you for your service.

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What I experienced was an organization that was not concerned about mission, men (women), and then themselves, but have it backward in every way.  My point was that this is a simple concept that most that have served in the military learn early on, usually from a CSM that bumps them on the head when he says it.

Or at least someone who knows a better way of doing things.  There are a few, definitely not the majority, of people in CAP in it for the wrong reasons, your squadron from what it sounds, has more than its share of them.  But at the same time, is it because they don't do CAP 'full-time,' so they don't have enough time to plan and execute as they would like? Or is it sheer incompetence?

There are many things in CAP I wish were 'fixed', but the things I have no say in, all I can do is 'salute and execute.' (and gripe here :) )

I think I've said enough on this topic, and apparantly it is making us all a little 'flustered,' that is not the image I wish to portray.  I apologize to anyone that thinks I was degrading them or insulting them, it was not my intention.

So again, thank you for your service and dedication to this country, I appreciate it more than you know.
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #72 on: April 16, 2007, 10:34:37 PM »

College deans and CEO's the same as military officers?

Not on your life.

I have never seen a college dean up at 0-Dark-30 with his pack ready to go on a deployment to some third-world hellhole hoping that he did all the planning and preparation right and hoping to God that his decisions over the next hours/days/weeks/months are correct, because if not one or more of the sleepy-eyed young men boarding the back of the Big Jet with him will die.

And don't you DARE compare a military officer with the CEO's of corporations, who produced such morally-deficient men as the executives of ENRON.

Being "Qualified" to be a military officer and being able to run pretty in your Nikes does not make you an officer.  You become an officer when you are willing to accept the responsibility for the lives of others and responsibility for a mission on behalf of your country.

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Ned
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« Reply #73 on: April 16, 2007, 10:55:04 PM »

John, my guess is that you were a little angry when you posted this.  I hope with reflection you will agree that it was a " little over the top."


And you essentially make DNall's point for him, I think.


College deans and CEO's the same as military officers?

Nobody ever said they were the same.  But they can certainly be compared in some respects.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister

I have never seen a college dean up at 0-Dark-30 with his pack ready to go on a deployment to some third-world hellhole[ . . .]

Of course, I don't think I have ever seen a CAP Corporate Officer do that either.  ;)

Which I think is sort of the point here.  Miltary experience is similar to, but in some important respects is NOT the same as CAP experience.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister

And don't you DARE compare a military officer with the CEO's of corporations, who produced such morally-deficient men as the executives of ENRON.

Steady there.  I think you would have to agree that the military has produced its fair share of "morally-deficient men [and women]"  Neither the military nor the corporate world have a exclusive lock on morality.

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister

Being "Qualified" to be a military officer and being able to run pretty in your Nikes does not make you an officer.  You become an officer when you are willing to accept the responsibility for the lives of others and responsibility for a mission on behalf of your country.



Absolutely true.

And you become a CAP Officer when you are willing to accept the responsibility for the lives of others and responsiblity for our CAP missions.



Peace.

Ned Lee
MAJ, IN (ret)
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ZigZag911
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« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2007, 12:06:54 AM »

The only thing that could slow them down is time in command/staff positions, which again is a matter of a name on a list & not an accomplishment of any kind.


In your eagerness to give military service its due recognition, Dennis, please don't diminish the contributions that many of us (including you!) make in CAP command and staff positions. Some CAP folks work quite hard, are very dedicated, and are accountable, if to no one else, to themselves for the quality of their service.
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2007, 12:20:23 AM »

College deans and CEO's the same as military officers?

Not on your life.

I'm sure that a college dean has more responsibility than the 0-5 that runs the admin squadron.  Why is it when anyone thinks of a 'military officer' immediately they think of 'combat' orientated officers, for lack of a better term?  That O-5 by the way would get their grade transfered, probably no questions asked.  However, the dean, only being a professional educator would become a Captain.  The Dean, probably has more people (students and faculty) to look after, as well as a larger budget to manage than said officer.

You are trying to compare apples and oranges here.  Simply look at responsibility level, management experience required, not ability to kill an enemy(which CAP does not need as a skill set).

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And don't you DARE compare a military officer with the CEO's of corporations, who produced such morally-deficient men as the executives of ENRON.

Point made above, no sense in reposting it.

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Being "Qualified" to be a military officer and being able to run pretty in your Nikes does not make you an officer.  You become an officer when you are willing to accept the responsibility for the lives of others and responsibility for a mission on behalf of your country.

A military officer yes, but as we all know, there are varying definitions of an 'officer.'  My point was that 'military' officers are not the end all and be all of knowledge and responsibility.  Would you say that the POTUS would not be qualified to be a CAP Lt Col?  Or maybe that Bill Gates would not be able to 'manage' a CAP region?  Maybe John McGuire (president and CEO of the Red Cross, former Marine Captain) would only be qualified to be a CAP Captain, and a squadron commander?

These civilians make a far greater 'impact' on today's society than a lot of members in the military, you can not just 'discard' their accomplishments because they are civilians.  Their experience, inginuity, management skills, etc. give them qualifications that many military members will NEVER get.

Again, I appreciate the dedication and sacrifice our military members make on a day to day basis, please don't discard the qualifications of civilians strictly because they are civilians.

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DNall
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« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2007, 01:04:37 AM »

See, you are already saying that someone with military experience is more valuable to the organization than someone who doesn't.  Not always the case.  You are also confusing the difference between a poorly managed squadron and one that isn't.  In one that isn't, staff members take their roles seriously and have accountability.
Yes I am. I understand there are excpetions to the rule. There are indeed occasional prior-service officers that stink, and every so often a non-PS officer that's pretty good. As a rule though it's just not possible to gain the kind of officership skills in CAP alone that are necessary to competently accomplish our missions, which is the primary thing holding us back. In general, yes, people with significant military leadership backgrounds are far and above more important to CAP than half our planes & pilots.

If I had my way, you couldn't be an officer w/o a couple years of college, you couldn't rise above Capt w/o a degree, you couldn't rise to field grade w/o having been a real military officer, and you couldn't command a Wg or higher unless you'd been a real field grade officer.


SLS is an introduction that SHOULD be part of Lvl I. CLC is mostly a repeat with a few things cut & covering the rest in a bit more detail. Both are quite useless. Neither is remotely a leadership or management course. I hadn't spent much time on teh new stuff so I couldn't comment on that. Everything in the PD program can be waived based on previous outside experience.

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I'm glad to know that you think that running a squadron/group/wing is not an accomplishment of any kind, and those in those positions are just names on a list.
You really have to take that to the extreme? You know very well members that hadn't been to a meeting in two years are posted to positions & will have no problems taking that time credit for their progression. Why should the 20 years a mil officer spent as a safety or PAO not count the same?

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Correct.  Again, no one is doubting their abilities, or what they've earned or 'checked off.'  I would be glad to have a handful of experience military personnel in my squadron. 
Actually, some people here said they hadn't checked off what you had so they aren't worthy, that the PME isn't applicable to CAP, and that their knowledge & experience as advanced leaders has any bearing on CAP. I appreciate though that you can see the critical value they bring to the program & how much more difficult it is to function w/o people like that around.

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Please clarify...he said nepotism and cryonism...
Yes he did, & he said CAP raised officers are more often guilty of it than professionally built mil officers. That's a little harder to substantiate, but you know those factors exist strongly across CAP. They are conerstones of the politics that cripple us.

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You did join the Air Force, you joined the Air Force Auxiliary & you knew it when you came in....

There are many other organizations better suited to volunteering your time to help your community, that is not what CAP is about, it's merely a side-effect of what we do.

I joined Civil Air Patrol, a non-profit volunteer organization chartered by congress, that happens to perform missions for the USAF, and during the times it does hold the title of USAF Auxiliary....

So if CAP isn't for helping the community, what is it about?  What other organizations would you recommend?  Boy, I thought in these past 10 years I was helping my community...all the local cadets, all the local ES missions, all the local disaster relief, all the local volunteering at various community events...[/quote]

Civil Air Patrol is the Auxiliary of the Air Force. It exists to support the Air Force, and if excess capabilities are left over after that is done with then they can be used with discression & inside limits to support things that state/local govts can't do for themselves. The unintended bonus on the side of that does benefit the community, but we don't focus on that.

It bothers me when units sell the org as a non-military based community service club. That is unacceptable. I realize there is significant debate about our identity, but you know as well as I that we have significant military roots that cannot be denied.  

I've done quite a lot in CAP for going on 14 years, and I've seen it from the military side too, as well as from the political side. I'd tell you if you really want to help your community there are at-risk youth programs, fire/LE reserve programs, private SaR teams... a list of about a hundred things that are each dramatically more effective than CAP. The one and only thing we have that makes us special is that we get to help the Air Force, and that's it.




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And would you join the military? Were you good enough? Cause these people did join & did sacrifice the bulk of their lives to that career with little ever in return, and they were promoted on merit alone. You as a CAP member were promoted for paying your dues & showing up, merit never entered the picture.

I was going to join the military, however, they don't like to take you if you have a steel rod in your spine.  So yes, I was/am good enough in aptitude and intelligence, and to this day I can do better on a PT exam than a lot of military members.

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Do other professions sometimes bring valuable skills, sure sometimes & you can put them in for a direct appointment based on that useful skill. They aren't experts though on the military system that we are supposed to be following.

But if management skills and leadership skills are so easily transferred over to CAP then the customs and courtesies stuff should be a cinch for them to pick up.  Our 'military' system only vaguely resembles the military.

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Certainly military officers have to make some adjustments dealing with CAP & it is a real big let down when you realize the quality of the organization, but you soldier on & make the best of it while trying to nudge it toward better ground as you go. It's difficult, because you deal with people along the way that don't understand why their community service club has to be based on the military.

Sometimes I wonder why my 'community service club' is trying to become the AD Air Force.  There is a reason that this organization is comprised of volunteers.  Because those volunteers want to improve their nation as volunteers, not enlisted members of the military.

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I've seen both sides & can assure you that CAP leaves a lot to be desired in meeting the quality & training standards necessary to do the job.

Again, this all depends on your experience in CAP.  I have had Active Duty Officers tell me that the 'CAP PME' courses I have directed have been the most professional thing they've experienced in their time in the military.  It all depends on who is doing the job.

I have been to some awful CAP training, and I will be the first to admit that a lot of CAP members do not have the aptitude to do what their 'grade' recommends.  So, I agree with the orgininal poster that something should be done about the way 'grade' is earned in CAP, I just think that it should be positional or start everyone at the beginning.

 ;)

EDIT 1: Change is to isn't first paragraph.
EDIT 2: Put in the edits :)

[/quote]
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DNall
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« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2007, 01:11:24 AM »

The only thing that could slow them down is time in command/staff positions, which again is a matter of a name on a list & not an accomplishment of any kind.

In your eagerness to give military service its due recognition, Dennis, please don't diminish the contributions that many of us (including you!) make in CAP command and staff positions. Some CAP folks work quite hard, are very dedicated, and are accountable, if to no one else, to themselves for the quality of their service.
CAP operates FAR FAR below the minimum operating standard that would be acceptable in the national guard from teh worst people they have, and our people aren't that bad. Our system is pretty screwed though & it certainly does not create competent leaders up from the inside out.

I was useless for 3-5 years, no way in hell I deserved anything close to officer grade. It took a series of real officers & NCOs as well as upper level cadetts below me all combining to develop me into something that might be minimally functional as a 2Lt in the real world, but I was a Capt at the time. Now I'm a Major & I can tell you I think I'm about highspeed mid-level Captain capable. Yet there's still a lot of I missed coming up & that I'll get to pick up the second time thru as a real junior officer.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2007, 01:14:38 AM »

Folks, in general (no pun intended) I've got no problem with prior service personnel, especially those that have been out for a number of years.  Where I have seen problems is mostly with those who have left the service in the not so distant past and have not realized that CAP is not actually a military organization and that their CAP rank does not give them the sort of authority that an equivalent rank would in their former service.  These folks are often those that take least account of the fact that CAP is only one of many activities that members participate in and that CAP work does not automatically trump other committments.  

The other weird factor is that I have had many good experiences with currently serving military officers (usually of Captain rank and below) who join CAP.  They seem to fit in real well and do a great job.  

My primary problem is with giving advanced CAP rank to ANYONE who has not earned it as part of the standard program, whether they are a doctor, pilot, nurse, or former military officer.  I know that running CAP at any level isn't rocket science and that doing it the "hard way" doesn't grant anyone some sort of moral superiority, but I just don't think it is right to have to explain basic CAP procedures to someone from one of these special categories who has been in CAP for 5 minutes and got a rank it will take most CAP members years to earn.  

Besides the unfairness of the program, I don't think it actually accomplishes its supposed purpose of attracting these skilled individuals to CAP.  And, I'm not sure how much we really want people who would join CAP in part because they would get to start at an advanced rank.
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2007, 01:23:24 AM »

Regradless of how much military training one has, SLS and CLC are non-waiverable.  The incoming military officer will still get the CAP-unique training.
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RiverAux
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« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2007, 01:27:46 AM »

Only if they want to advance higher....
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JohnKachenmeister
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« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2007, 01:36:49 AM »

That's where, River, you don't understand officers.

Officers are professionals.  They will avail themselves of the training once they realize that they need it to carry out their missions.

This is more true as one moves up the food chain. 

I came in as a captain.  I soldiered for my rank.  I had three years of company command time and many more years of staff time at battalion level and at the general staff level.  Once I got settled in an assignment, I saw to my training.  I put in for my waivers, and waited for the SLS/CLC classes to be offered.

I knew a lot, but I still had to learn the CAP way of doing things.     
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jimmydeanno
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« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2007, 01:45:50 AM »

It bothers me when units sell the org as a non-military based community service club. That is unacceptable. I realize there is significant debate about our identity, but you know as well as I that we have significant military roots that cannot be denied.  


We may have significant roots with the military, but what we were and are today, is a civilian organization.  Those subchasers in WWII weren't military pilots, the cadets during the 40's weren't in the military, they were Civilians.  The organization has always been oriented around civilians, not retired military personnel.  Those civilians that give their time freely to aide their nation.

These civilians for the past 65 years have lead CAP.  They may not be cut out to command a special forces team, or command the 8th Air Force, but the one thing they have proven is that they can work with volunteers.  If CAP grade means anything it would be that these people can be successful in an all volunteer environment, through adversity, scrutiny, and doubt; doubt in their abilities as leaders, followers, and volunteers.

All the civilians may not come from a military background, but I don't care what you say, a military background does not make you more valuable than the mother who goes and chaperones a cadet activity, or the civilian that directs a flight academy.  
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aveighter
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« Reply #83 on: April 17, 2007, 01:55:14 AM »

John, Dennis, why are you wasting your time?  It is obvious from many of the posts here that you are engaged with the self-inflated and unteachable.

Remember what Grandmother aveighter said; Never wrestle with pigs.  You only get dirty and the pig enjoys it.
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Major Carrales
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« Reply #84 on: April 17, 2007, 02:55:50 AM »

Fellows, is this all really getting us anywhere?

Maybe we need a break.

I have seen some very disturbing comments here from priors and non-priors alike.  We should be working together and concentrating on the missions.  It is those missions and their successful completion that will lead to better training and maybe a platform to change the rank/grade structures.  All this is showing is just how divided it is.

Earlier this week some hammered a PAO "glitch" where someone made some comments in print against a Reserve Center that was charging a long time unit rent.  Some things said in this thread make that look like a non-event.  Please, think before you post.  "One upping" someone for a quick satisfaction at the expense of image of CAP is almost "treasonous" to the furtherance of the organization.

I think a break might give everyone a chance to think clearly and maybe find a solution instead of vitriolic exchanges. (and maybe take back some of the meshuggah things that were said by both sides) ;)
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mikeylikey
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« Reply #85 on: April 17, 2007, 02:57:29 AM »

That's where, River, you don't understand officers.

Officers are professionals.  They will avail themselves of the training once they realize that they need it to carry out their missions.

This is more true as one moves up the food chain. 

I came in as a captain.  I soldiered for my rank.  I had three years of company command time and many more years of staff time at battalion level and at the general staff level.  Once I got settled in an assignment, I saw to my training.  I put in for my waivers, and waited for the SLS/CLC classes to be offered.

I knew a lot, but I still had to learn the CAP way of doing things.     

I don't know about you, but I became an Army Officer so I could drink at the O-Club on quarter beer nights, get the parking space right next to the Company building, get paid HUGE amounts of $$ for moving myself during a PCS, finally get unlimited PX and Commissary use and of course CLASS SIX (more cheap beer), wear prettier uniforms, ALLWAYS get a BOQ/DV guest room while traveling or on vacation (more beer in the minibar), get a MIL ID (that has holograms on it), be able to buy a brand new car after Commissioning (LT mobile) even though I had HUGE amounts of debt, get a nifty .mil email address, then sign up for extra email addresses to impress my friends and family, Make people Call me Lieutenant and now Captain (even strangers I randomly talk to in Walmart), demand salutes from men and women who have been in the service way before I was even born, get that blue little sticker under the DOD decal for the car that denotes Officer status, wake up way after my battery has started morning PT and role into work while they are just finishing a 5 mile run, blame everything that goes wrong on my Platoon SGTs and new LT's, regularly send my subordinate LT's to meet with the Battalion CO with some excuse why I can't be there (when really I am hung over), and finally use my GSA card to buy new rims for my car and bid on Star Trek figurines on EBAY.

Actually I became an Officer because:

I enjoy leading young men and women in training to go to war.
I feel I am making a difference in the lives of those who trust me with their lives.
The sense of purpose and belonging I get from waking up at 4:30AM and going to do 2 hours of PT, followed by a quick shower, then breakfast at the dinning facility, followed by anywhere from 6 to 8 more hours of; preventive maintenance OR maneuver training OR (MY FAVORITE) actually getting to the range and firing off some HE rounds from one of six howitzers I am responsible for.  After that I have a final informal meeting and call it a day and hopefully get to the retreat ceremony and then off post before the traffic gets to bad.

I can see where many Senior Officers who want to come into CAP may be put out that their rank will not transfer over.  I can't speak for all of them, but if they are a Colonel, they have worked [darn] hard to get that.  BUT, CAP although not Hugely different from the military does have it's unique quirks I suppose.  Take what is offered, and use your military background to better the organization.  It is not very often that a 14 year old kid can get some one on one leadership advice from an AF Colonel. 

The first set of reasons on why I became an Officer are an exaggeration (except for some of the beer references) (CADETS, disregard any and all beer references!!!)
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MIKE
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« Reply #86 on: April 17, 2007, 03:27:47 AM »

Lock.
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Mike Johnston
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CAP Talk  |  General Discussion  |  Membership  |  Topic: "...up to Lt. Col....." Insulting and discriminatory
 


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