Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
October 21, 2018, 11:35:32 PM
Home Help Login Register
News:

CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Should the Safety Beacon be scaled back or discontinued?
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [All] Print
Author Topic: Should the Safety Beacon be scaled back or discontinued?  (Read 14854 times)
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,967

« on: July 10, 2014, 05:01:22 PM »

It has been pretty clear for a while now that NHQ's Safety folks ran out of ideas for things to talk about in the monthly issue of the Safety Beacon.  For several years now it has mostly been filler material stolen (well, lets give benefit of the doubt and assume permissions were obtained) from other organizations. 

A recent article that they printed was about why it was bad to leave your baby in the car on a hot day -- C'mon folks!  Couldn't someone up there have shown a minor bit of initiative and re-written it to talk about dangers of leaving ground teams in parked vans during summer SAREX's and missions?  It took less than 2 seconds for me to make that connection. 

To really be of use to CAP, we need to focus our safety efforts on preventing CAP injuries and accidents and lets face facts -- there are only a limited number of topics that really need to be discussed.  It doesn't help CAP to waste people's time reading about grilling safety. 

I would propose that the Safety Beacon be dropped back to publishing only once every quarter, but that it be filled with CAP-specific articles.  If we can't do that, we might as well drop the newsletter format.

To give NHQ credit, they know this is a problem and in the latest CAP Vector were attempting to get members to submit articles with the promise of it counting towards their monthly safety briefing, which isn't a bad idea, but its still quicker for me to take the same online safety briefing on electrical hazards for the 3rd time than it is to write an article. 

Logged
sardak
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,201

« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2014, 05:13:21 PM »

Well, there were two new online safety safety classes when I went to take mine this month. Hazard Identification and Risk Assessment for CAP Activities, which I took and the material was actually pretty good. The other is Hangar Rash, a topic that just won't die.

Mike
Logged
MajorM
Forum Regular

Posts: 119
Unit: WI-037

« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2014, 05:13:35 PM »

Newsletters are a dying medium in general.  They made sense when accessing information took time.  In essence newsletters are just curated lists.

Your methods must match your audience.  Granted, CAP has an audience from 12-90 years old so that's hard.  But that means you have to diversify your methods.

When was the last time you saw a safety item on NHQ's Facebook page?  Why not turn the Beacon into a blog?  Blogs are old school but at least they're not newsletters.  And once the content is accessible it can be replicated.  Give me 10 pieces of individual content and I can generate 10 posting on our wing Facebook site.  Give me one newsletter and you get one posting.

But the Beacon reflects my fundamental issue with safety in general... It's largely old and stale in its approaches, outreach and content.  Why?  I don't know for sure but have my suspicions. 

To quote Arthur C. Clarke, "where there is interest, there will be education"... When it's uninteresting, few people will learn anything.
Logged
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,101

« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2014, 05:33:58 PM »

Based on the content, both nationally and in my wing, the editors are stretching to fill the page, and
many times it is irreverent to CAP activities or operations.

CAP publications should be focused on CAP operations, not trying to advise me on medical issues,
protecting my kids, or even how to drive my POV.

1 vote for discontinue.
Logged


THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,874

« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2014, 06:12:27 PM »

I have to say can it. Like Eclipse said, they have been struggling to fill the space. With the FAA, EAA, AOPA and any number of other aviation safety related pubs out there, this just seems to get lost in the static
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,652

« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2014, 06:53:58 PM »

Don't read it if you don't want to.

If they kill it....then we all complain about how Safety never tells us anything at all until someone gets hurt and then it is too late.

That someone at NHQ is in fact doing their job.....publihsing safety rated information every month is a good thing.    Skim it.....pull out the stuff that is pertinent to your area.  Move on.

Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Pylon
Administrator

Posts: 5,165
Unit: NER-NH-038

Michael Kieloch, Marketing Communications & PR Leadership
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2014, 07:43:54 PM »

I think the suggestion is not to "kill it" but rather transition it to a format that it more accessible (in a digital format you don't have to try and "fill" a letter-sized page; you can publish at whatever length makes sense) and also for CAP/SE to develop material that is more relevant to Civil Air Patrol.
Logged
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP
Concord Composite Squadron, NH       
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,101

« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2014, 07:56:29 PM »

Monthly real-world discussions of actual 78s, including the ramifications, remediations, and steps to avoid would be of more value.
Logged


lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,652

« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2014, 08:13:34 PM »

Monthly real-world discussions of actual 78s, including the ramifications, remediations, and steps to avoid would be of more value.
I would certainly go for that.
Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,652

« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2014, 08:14:01 PM »

I think the suggestion is not to "kill it" but rather transition it to a format that it more accessible (in a digital format you don't have to try and "fill" a letter-sized page; you can publish at whatever length makes sense) and also for CAP/SE to develop material that is more relevant to Civil Air Patrol.
That is not what Riveraux suggested.
Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,967

« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2014, 10:42:09 PM »

I think the suggestion is not to "kill it" but rather transition it to a format that it more accessible (in a digital format you don't have to try and "fill" a letter-sized page; you can publish at whatever length makes sense) and also for CAP/SE to develop material that is more relevant to Civil Air Patrol.
That is not what Riveraux suggested.

Anything that gets us away from stuff like this (from just the last four months):
-What every parent should know about prom night
-Handing your teen the car keys
-inspecting your garage
-rip currents
-don't leave kids in hot cars
-fireworks safety
-grilling fire safety
-dangers of marijuana
-protect your online reputation
-suicide
-safe travel with electronic batteries

Quote
Don't read it if you don't want to.
.
I WANT a newsletter that I can read that highlights ways to make CAP safer. 
-
Logged
Panache
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,060
Unit: PAWG

« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2014, 12:47:50 AM »

My job's Safety department puts out a monthly newsletter and each newsletter comes with a 10-question quiz.  All employees, including Supervisors and Managers, must complete the quiz and turn it back to Safety.

In May, I was poking fun at the people who put out the newsletter because that month's newsletter and quiz was, word-for-word, exactly the same as May 2013.  The only difference was, in the corner, is said "MAY 2014" instead of "MAY 2013".  That was, literally, the only change.

I took my quiz from last year, made a copy, crossed out "13" and wrote "14".  It was accepted without comment.

So this month I check my email and find July's Safety Newsletter and Quiz.  Like May's, it is exactly the same as July 2013, with just the date changed.

When I asked, the answer I got back "Well, there's only so much we can talk about."
Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,956
Unit: of issue

« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2014, 08:35:28 AM »

Back when aviation was my full time job, I spent a lot of time with my nose in the monthly safety newsletter from Fort Rucker. I also read Approach Magazine from the Navy.

My reasoning was that if I didn't try to learn pretty hard for people who had already made mistakes, I might not live long enough to make my own.

Even now, I spend a lot of time reading the safety incident report in the back of Parachutist Magazine from USPA. Mostly because I feel it's the duty of an instructor to completely train his or her students. I think it helps to become a more well-rounded instructor by familiarizing myself with the many scenarios that lead to accidents and fatalities. Learn from the mistakes of others, so you can live long enough to make your own. Or not.

My unit has a safety officer who is pretty darn good. He works hard to bring good topics, he makes the discussions engaging, he's not the only one up there droning away every month, and he's realistic about it. That's not an easy thing. It doesn't just happen by itself.

I also wish that CAP  would publish examples of safety incidents so that we can all learn from them and avoid reinventing the wheel ourselves. If Joe senior member new guy reads about an incident involving, say, towing, that actually happened with a CAP member using CAP-owned equipment, maybe he notice some thing amiss if he, too, is doing some towing with a CAP vehicle.

[edit: stupid autocorrect on phone]
« Last Edit: July 11, 2014, 11:38:16 AM by NIN » Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,874

« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2014, 10:35:51 AM »

Monthly real-world discussions of actual 78s, including the ramifications, remediations, and steps to avoid would be of more value.

That'd be great!
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
NC Hokie
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 912
Unit: MER-NC-057

« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2014, 10:52:15 AM »

Monthly real-world discussions of actual 78s, including the ramifications, remediations, and steps to avoid would be of more value.

That'd be great!

I concur.  We did this as part of our Safety Down Day this year and it led to some pretty lively discussion.  It was almost fun.
Logged
NC Hokie, Lt Col, CAP

Graduated Squadron Commander
All Around Good Guy
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,101

« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2014, 10:59:22 AM »

^ At least it's relevent.

Those Navy magazines are excellent - feature length articles on real-world events and the chain-of-causation.

I never saw anything in those about not leaving your baby strapped in the backseat of an F18.
Logged


Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #16 on: December 28, 2014, 04:02:35 PM »

SafetyBeacon could be relevant, but not unless National wants to make it a priority.  I think a vibrant news letter has a lot of value.  Unfortunately, to be "vibrant" and therefore useful, it requires investment.  Minus emphasis by national the message communicated in the cut and past product is that safety is not an emphasis item for CAP.  Instead, "Safety" is a "check the box" item on the management agenda. 
Logged
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #17 on: December 28, 2014, 04:16:32 PM »

It's pretty clear that NHQ doesn't make the Beacon a priority.  It's also clear (from the cut 'n paste content in the Beacon) that "Safety" is a "check the box" item. Too bad.  There are a lot of topics that could bear some serious discussion.  For example, current regulations do not discuss air crew PPE (fire resistant clothing, gloves, etc) yet several pages of manual direction are devoted to reflective vests.  We fly SE aircraft at night, in IFR, at low elevations over inhospitable terrain.  How can we use eDiscrepancies to reduce air crew risks? 

I agree with NIN that publishing a monthly or quarterly summary of safety incidents would be a great idea.  It's interesting that there are more CAP related mishaps published in the NTSB db than I've ever seen discussed in any CAP forum or Pilot Clinic.

I would like to see the Beacon brought back to life.  If National doesn't have the staff to write original articles, maybe a small investment in incentive items might encourage members in Wing or Squadrons to provide some interesting material?
Logged
MovingOnToOtherThings
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,300

« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2014, 03:53:53 PM »

That someone at NHQ is in fact doing their job.....publihsing safety rated information every month is a good thing.    Skim it.....pull out the stuff that is pertinent to your area.  Move on.

I think they do the best they can many of the times. I agree with you. If you do not like it you can skip it and move on.


Anything that gets us away from stuff like this (from just the last four months):
-What every parent should know about prom night
-Handing your teen the car keys
-inspecting your garage
-rip currents
-don't leave kids in hot cars
-fireworks safety
-grilling fire safety
-dangers of marijuana
-protect your online reputation
-suicide
-safe travel with electronic batteries

-

I disagree, I think the information can be helpful but can be approached in a different way and not made the primary content.

My job's Safety department puts out a monthly newsletter and each newsletter comes with a 10-question quiz.  All employees, including Supervisors and Managers, must complete the quiz and turn it back to Safety.

In May, I was poking fun at the people who put out the newsletter because that month's newsletter and quiz was, word-for-word, exactly the same as May 2013.  The only difference was, in the corner, is said "MAY 2014" instead of "MAY 2013".  That was, literally, the only change.

I took my quiz from last year, made a copy, crossed out "13" and wrote "14".  It was accepted without comment.

So this month I check my email and find July's Safety Newsletter and Quiz.  Like May's, it is exactly the same as July 2013, with just the date changed.

When I asked, the answer I got back "Well, there's only so much we can talk about."

This is very common all across the manufacturing industry as well. Most of the tests don't change a lot over the course of the year. They essentially change the date and maybe a few pieces of key information.

I currently have close to 30 finished Safety Tests that I use for my clients and all I have to do is change the background and the Company Name.


My unit has a safety officer who is pretty darn good. He works hard to bring good topics, he makes the discussions engaging, he's not the only one up there droning away every month, and he's realistic about it. That's not an easy thing. It doesn't just happen by itself.


It is difficult to make safety "fun and engaging", I try to interject different things into the discussions to break up the monotony. For example: The last time I did Ionizing and Non-Ionizing Radiation training I put a picture of myself on Luke Skywalkers body with the Jedi Sword. I was the "Laser Safety Jedi Master". Got some chuckles and lightened the training.



All together safety is a VERY difficult subject to approach and be active in. Even when people get hurt the injury goes away and many times their focus goes as well. You have to have people that are doing it because they enjoy the work and the challenge. Not because it is a Duty Assignment.

Just look at the threads dedicated to safety versus uniforms and that will tell you where our focus seems to be.

Safety can never be status quo and that is what happens most of the time even in CAP.

I like to offer alternatives as well. I have attached a Safety Beacon Format idea.....feedback welcomed.
Logged
Always seeking to learn.
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,101

« Reply #19 on: December 29, 2014, 04:25:46 PM »

The thing is, CAP safety Officers are, at best, SMEs on CAP subjects. The minute they start venturing into
discussing safety during non-CAP activities, they lose their audience, because that's not why people
are coming to a CAP meeting - there are better sources for that information, and regardless, it's not
CAP's lane (this gets back to the holistic fallacy of CAP involvement regarding health services, spiritual matters, etc., etc.)

Further, the primary audience are adults.  Adults who are not going to be inclined to change their behavior
over something they are already getting pounded over the head on constantly via PSAs and family do-gooders
just because a CAP SE copy/pasted it from the first website they found when Googling "safety topics".
Those topics just smack of someone who "can't be bothered" checking a box for the month.

These newletters also don't need mastheads, colorful graphics, wacky clipart, photos of the SE or what the
SE did over Summer Vacation, etc.    I've seen some that never get around to discussing anything relevent to CAP
in 3-5 pages.

Captive audiences like a required work briefing may need comic relief, CAP doesn't have the time
to waste, nor is the audience captive - they have no need or requirement to read the message, and most click
off as soon as it starts to waste their time.

A single, focused, well-written, forensic-style article on a real-world mishap would get a lot more attention then
anything being published today.  Whether it's schadenfreude or legitimate interest in not repeating mistakes,
either way you have the reader's interest.  Even see a break down of the "telephone game" between
"Story 1" and "Final report" would be interesting.

Considering the high number of 78s written every year, across all three missions, at one or two articles a month
there are years of subject matter sitting on the shelf, just waiting for dissection.  Just sitting here thinking about it
quickly I know of 4-5 situations that would fit that bill nicely (and no thank you on writing them, but don't let that stop you).
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 04:29:01 PM by Eclipse » Logged


Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2014, 06:11:45 PM »

Here's a note that recently circulated in my Wing based on the sparse information on the two aircraft mishaps described in the December 2014 'Beacon.  It generated some useful discussion, and a followup note from the Wing LGM that expanded on the thoughts offered in the initial note.  Perhaps something like this might be a useful way to learn from mishaps.  Of course, all of this material is minus grounding in the actual events - so perhaps including in the Beacon discussion some actual mishap investigation material would be helpful

re: aircraft mishaps that occurred in Oct which were described in the December Beacon's mishap discussion.
 
Both mishaps are described as flat main gear tires resulting from tube failure upon landing.  It wasn't stated whether the aircraft were C172, C182, Gripps, or C206.  While neither event was attributed to pilot error, tube failure may have resulted from cumulative wear resulting from chronic low inflation.  In other words, a history of several individuals missing a critical pre-flight item that may, or may NOT be present on some aircraft pre-flight check lists. 
 
According to Goodyear Company, aviation tires are very susceptible to damage resulting from below recommended pressure.  Low pressure increases sidewall flex, resulting in potentially significant heat buildup during long taxis or during landing.  A few years ago a Goodyear Rep who spoke at the annual Mission Safety International/Moody Aviation safety stand down recommended junking tires that were allowed to run 10% or more below recommended values! 
 
FWIW, I have observed that tires on CAP aircraft are often under inflated by several pounds compared to recommended pressures in the POH.  It's not unusual for my handy tire pressure gage to find the tires on aircraft (CAP and otherwise) recently released from maintenance after 100 hour/annual with tire pressures below recommended values for the mains (on a C182 around 42 lbs) and nose (about 46 lbs).  In some cases during pre-flights I've found pressures on the main tires on C182 aircraft in the high 20's and low 30's... about 10-15 lbs (25-30%) below recommended.  Really low pressures seem to be more common during the winter, but I've found 10 psi under inflations in the summer as well.
 
Anyhow, some food for thought as we read about the misfortunes of other pilots.


The LGM comments follow:

The reason the tires get low after a time before or after the 100 hr/annual is because aircraft use rubber tubes inside the tire and by nature they will loose up to 4 lbs. a month.  Rubber is porous and the air leaks out through the tube itself.  Most  cars use tubeless tires that are synthetic and are not so porous thus do not loose air so fast.  Some maintenance people put nitrogen (same stuff used in the struts) in their tires because it does not have the moisture in it and the molecules are larger and seep less.
 
There are a lot of reasons for tube failure.
 
Under pressure.
Over pressure.
Wear beyond the tread of the tire.
Flat spots on the tire from locking the wheels on landing (excessive braking).
Hard landings
FOD on runway or taxi way
 
Use the recommended pressure and it should be adjusted for aircraft load, essential on larger aircraft.  It has an effect on braking and tire life.
 
Tires are not the only item that is missed.  Sloppy pre-flights have been around for a long time and it amazing that they have not caused as many accidents a they could.  They have caused some catastrophic accidents and have the potential to cause a lot more.  We have been doing a relatively good job in this arena but we have missed some important items over the years.  A good preflight requires really looking at the aircraft while reading the check sheet is imperative and standing back and looking at the overall condition of the aircraft will reduce accidents or lessen their impact.  It is the job of everyone around aircraft to see that the condition of the aircraft is OK for flight.  If you see a potential problem let the Pilot know he/she could have missed it.
 
Little problems lead to greater problems if not taken care of.  Keep up the good work.  We all could use improvement no matter how good you think you are, ATP to Student Pilot.  It is the job of anyone around aircraft to keep learning and keep safety in mind.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2014, 06:21:36 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
Private Investigator
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,159

« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2014, 09:33:02 PM »

Safety is what you put into it. My children did Little League and every year on opening day the paramedics took children to the hospital. My teams never had a serious injury. I saw plenty of unsafe activities by the other teams. The next year I got on the board and decided we will talk safety and put safety first. That year paramedic calls to Little League games, none. That year not a single child lost a front tooth. We had a few every year besides, broken ankles, dislocated shoulders and elbows.

Nobody says anything, somebody will get hurt. Just a reality check my friends.  8)
Logged
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,652

« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2014, 09:55:09 PM »

There is a big difference between not saying anything.....and getting hit over the head with asinine safety briefs, and asinine safety policy (the safety currency stuff).

   
Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2014, 10:48:27 PM »

There is a big difference between not saying anything.....and getting hit over the head with asinine safety briefs, and asinine safety policy (the safety currency stuff).

True.  So, what are some good examples you've seen of safety programs that are helpful, useful, and effective?  Been a safety officer, and really grumbled about some stuff you've mentioned.  So I started using real time accidents, watch outs, current events (there are good safety lessons in most news feeds).  Those seemed to catch people's eye and hold their interest.  I've found that repeating the same saw just makes for a dull saw.  But making the message fit the groups interest usually connects in a way that gets retention.  What have you found that works?
Logged
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,652

« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2014, 10:51:26 PM »

Personally the basic 8 common safety items plush 2 focus items a months 5 minutes max is just about right.

Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
MovingOnToOtherThings
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,300

« Reply #25 on: December 30, 2014, 12:48:27 PM »

I have attached an old poster I used when I was doing Safety Consulting work, I highlighted my feelings about safety. I have begun to realize more and more that others don't necessarily have the same thoughts. This is not bad per say but a little disheartening at times. The hardest part about safety is trying to maintain that positive outlook. The best part about safety is represented by that little boy.
Logged
Always seeking to learn.
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,652

« Reply #26 on: December 30, 2014, 12:55:25 PM »

Yep.....and that's the rub.    From a SAFETY point of view "You can never train too much.......",From my point of view you can.

Don't get me wrong....we need SE, we need Safety Training, we need to have safety briefings as part of our daily routine.  We don't need "safety compliance" as done by CAP.   We don't need to "waste" any more time on safety that is necessary.   

That is the end of my rant.
Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
Eclipse
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 29,101

« Reply #27 on: December 30, 2014, 01:05:14 PM »

"Safety" is a fundamental part of organizational excellence and culture, and therefore is taken as a given by those who
adhere to the idea of doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do, regardless of who is looking.

"SAFETY!" is just corporate rhetoric used in place of organizational excellence to protect the organization >after<
something bad happens.

CAP doesn't know the difference, and its internally conflicting regulations, not to mention "good of the corps" "look the other
way" operating policies such as with medical professionals, severely impact any message trying to leak out of the training.
There's also the issue of nearly nonexistent expectations of performance and lack of will in regards to disciplinary actions
when serious violations occur (or are discovered and stopped before the mishap.

Neither the carrot nor the stick is used, and safety is "had with a click" - not surprising you get mostly deaf ears.
Logged


MovingOnToOtherThings
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,300

« Reply #28 on: December 30, 2014, 02:42:15 PM »

Yep.....and that's the rub.    From a SAFETY point of view "You can never train too much.......",From my point of view you can.

Don't get me wrong....we need SE, we need Safety Training, we need to have safety briefings as part of our daily routine.  We don't need "safety compliance" as done by CAP.   We don't need to "waste" any more time on safety that is necessary.   

That is the end of my rant.

I would have to agree to an extent. There is a point of diminishing return when it comes to any kind of system or training. I do not necessarily view it as a waste of time, but a waste of focus.

"Safety" is a fundamental part of organizational excellence and culture, and therefore is taken as a given by those who adhere to the idea of doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do, regardless of who is looking.

This concept did not start to get a good footing until around 2008. This is when the "drive or push" around organizational safety really started. In my opinion we are still in an infancy stage with most organizations. You can have all the policies and programs you want and if you don't hold people accountable for their actions then the system is no good.

"SAFETY!" is just corporate rhetoric used in place of organizational excellence to protect the organization >after< something bad happens.

Unfortunately you are correct on a large scale. Safety is rarely important until something happens and then everyone wants to talk about it and how important it is. Then they can say "We have a safety program in place and adamant about it, we have meetings every month and talk about it a lot. But do we truly grasp the concept and importance. This is very much so in the Manufacturing Environment and many non-profit organizations. They like the status quo because it is easy to deal with. Safety should be look at and addressed as a challenge but businesses are afraid to address real issue for fear of bad publicity and the perception of their failure.

CAP doesn't know the difference, and its internally conflicting regulations, not to mention "good of the corps" "look the other way" operating policies such as with medical professionals, severely impact any message trying to leak out of the training. There's also the issue of nearly nonexistent expectations of performance and lack of will in regards to disciplinary actions when serious violations occur (or are discovered and stopped before the mishap.

You may be surprised that there are a lot of organizations that approach the subject in the same way. One of the senior managers from a Company that I audited wanted me to create what I call an "Area 51 Document", they found out they were getting Audited by a Governmental Agency and wanted me to "create" a training roster for a class I did not teach, it would be a repeat offense for them and would get heavily fined. I refused to do it and the Senior Manager sent me a very nasty and unprofessional email.

Neither the carrot nor the stick is used, and safety is "had with a click" - not surprising you get mostly deaf ears.

You are unfortunately correct. I did a Safety Briefing at a Conference several years ago and everyone was excited about getting their safety done for their 15 minutes. When I held a Safety Breakout Session I had 1 person show up and was visited by the National Commander at the time. I was even offering "the carrot", free safety vests for each attendant and a Massive Trauma Kit worth $500. I had over $1500 worth of items that I was giving away and no one wanted to attend. I gave many of the vests to a new Squadron that was forming.

I have offered up many suggestions and things I felt we could do to maybe spark some interest in Safety.

1) Safety News Letters for the Wing that offered a more specific perspective and explanation as suggested earlier about Root Cause Analysis and Hazard Mitigation
2) For the uniform and bling folks: A Mission Safety Officer Badge similar to the Ground Team and IC Badge.
3) Safety Award with Criteria
4) Pocket Safety and ORM Cards
5) Free GAP Analysis of Safety Surveys
6) Encampment Emergency Response Plan Template

My Commanders at the time were great and supportive....they died above that

Passion does not equal progress when progress requires self-assessment.....and we don't want the results.

Safe to say "Rant over I am done"......pun intended
Logged
Always seeking to learn.
FlyNavy
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SWR-OK-001

Oklahoma Wing
« Reply #29 on: December 31, 2014, 12:06:40 AM »

I personally feel that the CAP Safety Beacon should be continued for several reasons:

1) For an organization to be so devoted to safety, it needs to continue to have an official publication; The Beacon is just that.

2) Forums are a great tool to discuss thoughts, ideas, etc...but they are also very convoluded at the same time. They also have the ability to present too much information at once. The Safety Beacon, although rudimentary, is an effective way to bring into focus a topic for discussion amongst all CAP members.

There are many items in CAP that may seem obsolete, but they are there for a good reason. I feel that although the safety beacon is "oldie", it is still a "goodie"
Logged
Director of Emergency Services, Oklahoma Wing
Qualifications: MP, MO, MS, AOBD, MSA, MRO, MSO, TMP, UDF, WS

Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #30 on: December 31, 2014, 12:18:44 AM »

I personally feel that the CAP Safety Beacon should be continued for several reasons:

1) For an organization to be so devoted to safety, it needs to continue to have an official publication; The Beacon is just that.

2) Forums are a great tool to discuss thoughts, ideas, etc...but they are also very convoluded at the same time. They also have the ability to present too much information at once. The Safety Beacon, although rudimentary, is an effective way to bring into focus a topic for discussion amongst all CAP members.

There are many items in CAP that may seem obsolete, but they are there for a good reason. I feel that although the safety beacon is "oldie", it is still a "goodie"

WELL SAID.
Logged
MovingOnToOtherThings
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,300

« Reply #31 on: December 31, 2014, 06:26:01 AM »

I personally feel that the CAP Safety Beacon should be continued for several reasons:

1) For an organization to be so devoted to safety, it needs to continue to have an official publication; The Beacon is just that.

2) Forums are a great tool to discuss thoughts, ideas, etc...but they are also very convoluded at the same time. They also have the ability to present too much information at once. The Safety Beacon, although rudimentary, is an effective way to bring into focus a topic for discussion amongst all CAP members.

There are many items in CAP that may seem obsolete, but they are there for a good reason. I feel that although the safety beacon is "oldie", it is still a "goodie"

Agree as well.
Logged
Always seeking to learn.
Private Investigator
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,159

« Reply #32 on: December 31, 2014, 06:31:56 AM »

I have attached an old poster I used when I was doing Safety Consulting work, I highlighted my feelings about safety. I have begun to realize more and more that others don't necessarily have the same thoughts. This is not bad per say but a little disheartening at times. The hardest part about safety is trying to maintain that positive outlook. The best part about safety is represented by that little boy.

Jim, that gets peoples attention. I would like to place that at my job site.   :clap:
Logged
Private Investigator
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,159

« Reply #33 on: December 31, 2014, 06:32:51 AM »

I personally feel that the CAP Safety Beacon should be continued for several reasons:

1) For an organization to be so devoted to safety, it needs to continue to have an official publication; The Beacon is just that.

2) Forums are a great tool to discuss thoughts, ideas, etc...but they are also very convoluded at the same time. They also have the ability to present too much information at once. The Safety Beacon, although rudimentary, is an effective way to bring into focus a topic for discussion amongst all CAP members.

There are many items in CAP that may seem obsolete, but they are there for a good reason. I feel that although the safety beacon is "oldie", it is still a "goodie"

I concur and welcome to CAP Talk. Very awesome first post   :clap:
Logged
MovingOnToOtherThings
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,300

« Reply #34 on: December 31, 2014, 06:40:27 AM »

I have attached an old poster I used when I was doing Safety Consulting work, I highlighted my feelings about safety. I have begun to realize more and more that others don't necessarily have the same thoughts. This is not bad per say but a little disheartening at times. The hardest part about safety is trying to maintain that positive outlook. The best part about safety is represented by that little boy.

Jim, that gets peoples attention. I would like to place that at my job site.   :clap:

I can post the pic when I get to work. I will take my info off.
Logged
Always seeking to learn.
MovingOnToOtherThings
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,300

« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2014, 09:36:19 AM »

I have attached an old poster I used when I was doing Safety Consulting work, I highlighted my feelings about safety. I have begun to realize more and more that others don't necessarily have the same thoughts. This is not bad per say but a little disheartening at times. The hardest part about safety is trying to maintain that positive outlook. The best part about safety is represented by that little boy.

Jim, that gets peoples attention. I would like to place that at my job site.   :clap:

Here you go.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Logged
Always seeking to learn.
Private Investigator
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 2,159

« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2015, 04:57:18 AM »

I have attached an old poster I used when I was doing Safety Consulting work, I highlighted my feelings about safety. I have begun to realize more and more that others don't necessarily have the same thoughts. This is not bad per say but a little disheartening at times. The hardest part about safety is trying to maintain that positive outlook. The best part about safety is represented by that little boy.

Jim, that gets peoples attention. I would like to place that at my job site.   :clap:

Here you go.

Thank you sir and have a great New Year.
Logged
JC004
[Insert Cool Title Here]
Global Moderator

Posts: 4,519

« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2015, 06:18:09 AM »

*startled waking snore*  I'm sorry...what's going on in this thread?  I fell asleep when I saw "safety."   >:D
Logged
NIN
VIP

Posts: 4,956
Unit: of issue

« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2015, 01:20:38 PM »

As I had said earlier, sometimes specific incident reports (sanitized of names, locations, etc) can help others when they read it and can put themselves into the circumstances or see similar circumstances in their specific operations.

The attached US Parachute Association incident report was in this month's issue of Parachutist Magazine. This particular incident occurred at my DZ in August, so I was fairly intimately familiar with it.

Even so, there were aspects of this incident, thru a 3rd party, dispassionate lens, that are far more salient 5 months later.  For example, most of us close to the incident never really got the full skinny on what was found with the gear.  The problem illustrated here can happen to ANYBODY if they're not paying attention to certain aspects of gear maintenance.

We need these kinds of summaries to help illustrate that the problems and circumstances we face in one part of the country (as it pertains to aircraft and ground ops) may not be unique and that things can bite us when we least expect it.


Logged
Darin Ninness, Lt Col, CAP
Sq Bubba, Wing Dude, National Guy
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2018 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2015, 03:46:06 PM »

*startled waking snore*  I'm sorry...what's going on in this thread?  I fell asleep when I saw "safety."   >:D

You can go back to sleep now. 
Logged
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2015, 04:06:30 PM »

We need these kinds of summaries to help illustrate that the problems and circumstances we face in one part of the country (as it pertains to aircraft and ground ops) may not be unique and that things can bite us when we least expect it.

Agree.  For example, some years ago I learned the "correct way" to check for fouled controls during my initial flight instruction.  Turns out it was not an effective technique for detecting control fouling.  After reading some NTSB reports of fatal accidents involving rigging and controls, talking with persons knowledgeable about those accidents, and several conversations with some very experienced pilots I revised my control check procedure... About two years ago the experience of others paid off when I caught a potential fouling problem during a pre-takeoff check.  I've picked up other useful checks from reading accident reports and safety articles, and from talking with other experienced pilots.  Several years ago an AI friend mentioned he'd found a loose horizontal stabilizer on a plane he'd just landed.  His boss took him out and showed him the up and down movement in the air foil that the AI missed in his pre-flight.  In 2011 I checked the horizontal stabilizers on a CAP 182 during my pre-flight and found substantial oil canning on one.  It turns out that someone had made a practice of moving the plane into its parking spot by pushing down on the tail - and in the process pulled TWELVE rivets through the 2nd and 3rd ribs on the left HZ. 

We learn from our experiences, but it's a far better strategy to learn from the experiences of others.  Better to avoid the pain and cost of our own personalized mishap, doncha think?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2015, 04:15:14 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,426
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #41 on: January 02, 2015, 12:42:10 AM »

When I was in the Navy, I perused their safety magazine, Approach, every month. Over my career, it helped me avoid some safety issues that I might not have otherwise known about. I also passed these bits on to others.

I think the Beacon has merit, but the suggested change, to incorporate more BTDT articles, would improve both its quality and readership interest.
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
lordmonar
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,652

« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2015, 01:17:22 AM »

When I was in the Navy, I perused their safety magazine, Approach, every month. Over my career, it helped me avoid some safety issues that I might not have otherwise known about. I also passed these bits on to others.

I think the Beacon has merit, but the suggested change, to incorporate more BTDT articles, would improve both its quality and readership interest.
Most USAF safety magazines were like that too.   But then there was an incentive for people involved in safety incidents to write up their BTDT stories and get them published.  OPR and EPR fodder.

Without a steady stream of publication ready articles....you are just not going to get that quality out of CAP.

Having said that though.....we can still go the USPA route and do a factual break down of the incidents with maybe a paragraph's worth of safety recommendations.

Logged
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP
Pacific Region
SarDragon
Global Moderator

Posts: 10,426
Unit: NAVAIRPAC

« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2015, 04:39:35 AM »

When I was in the Navy, I perused their safety magazine, Approach, every month. Over my career, it helped me avoid some safety issues that I might not have otherwise known about. I also passed these bits on to others.

I think the Beacon has merit, but the suggested change, to incorporate more BTDT articles, would improve both its quality and readership interest.
Most USAF safety magazines were like that too.   But then there was an incentive for people involved in safety incidents to write up their BTDT stories and get them published.  OPR and EPR fodder.

Without a steady stream of publication ready articles....you are just not going to get that quality out of CAP.

Having said that though.....we can still go the USPA route and do a factual break down of the incidents with maybe a paragraph's worth of safety recommendations.


Exactly!
Logged
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret
MovingOnToOtherThings
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,300

« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2015, 10:04:41 AM »

After reading this thread several times and several other safety related threads I have to think about my approach and feedback for myself.

I have been on both sides of the table when it comes to inspections. I have had my Policies, Programs, and Systems torn apart, questioned, and even once told I was flat out wrong. This is not an easy thing to sit through or accept. I have also been the Inspector on the other side of the table giving feedback to facility leaders and other EHS Managers. From the regulatory side most of the information is pretty cut and dry, from the cultural perspective.....not so much.

CAP just like many other organizations have policies and procedures that seem contrary to "common sense" (I do not like this term), and it just doesn't seem to fit the bill for what we perceive as what needs to be done. This is in regards to training, inspections, validation, and the like. However: most of this is more than likely driven with the intent of going overboard in some areas because of someone's mistake or accident. We also have to look beyond the surface of what we see and think is the reasoning they do what they do, but to be honest we REALLY don't know that much. Even for the Volunteer members that are part of the National Safety Team and others at NHQ, I am sure they receive their direction from someone appointed over them. The system we have is not going to fit 100% of every scenario or be accepted by 100% of our members. Overall I think it does a pretty good job.

In the last several months CAP has shown that they are looking at the Safety program by doing an Internal GAP Analysis and focusing on the FAA program as described. I had the chance to read over the program while I was on vacation and found it to be a comprehensive approach that will help move our system forward. It will not alleviate every perceived risk that we have, but it seems like a good place to start. I have seen the same approach from other industries that are difficult to define, build, and narrow down. Even OSHA takes 8-10 years to update a Safety Standard. Perhaps our individualized opinions are based on single input and do not have to be vetted by so many different levels both inside and outside CAP.

My region commander and I had a great conversation (Col Bedgod) about the state of the Safety program over a year ago. He recommended me for the National Safety Team and I was appointed shortly after that. During my conversation with him I voiced part of my thoughts and concerns about the "State of Safety". One of the things he told me as we were talking was the difference between Safety Evolution and Safety Revolution. Out of all of the CAP Safety related conversations I have had in 14 years in CAP, that was probably one of the best discussions I have had the pleasure to be part of.

Perhaps we have to work within the context of what it is, we like CAP cannot make everyone happy, but we can try our best to keep them safe.

Hats off to the National Safety Team and their push to move forward
Logged
Always seeking to learn.
LTCinSWR
Member

Posts: 72
Unit: SWR-NM-060

« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2015, 11:52:09 AM »

I believe the Safety Beacon should be continued for two reasons: generational behavior and learning methods.

The demographic of many of our pilots come from a day when magazines were a preferred method of delivering a focused message. Habits die hard, and even with modern technology, using an 'e-zine' (I know, that term seems archaic as well) is the best way to approach some people.

Secondly, using adult education (andragogy) theory, this appeals to the visual learner, as opposed to the kinetic and auditory. Most pilots are kinetic - visual by nature, so giving them the visual gives them something to consider which they reinforce and enhance by kinetic follow-up.

There is no sense in pulling a tool out of the tool box without having a better tool to replace it.
Logged
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.
 John Quincy Adams

L.A. Nelson Lt. Col. CAP
Homeland Security Officer
NM Wing Headquarters
FlyNavy
Recruit

Posts: 17
Unit: SWR-OK-001

Oklahoma Wing
« Reply #46 on: June 12, 2015, 12:06:22 PM »

The Safety Beacon is still relevant; however it needs to be "upgraded" in my opinion.

Each military branch has its own monthly safety publication (I know the Navy and Air Force do).

The following is a selection of sources from each branch that I frequent:


Air Force: Combat Edge Magazine
Army: Knowledge Magazine
Navy & Marines: Approach Magazine

What do all of these have in common? They all have relevant topics and stories that teach valuable safety knowledge. I understand that Civil Air Patrol is not the military, however CAP could revamp the current Safety Beacon and turn it into a very relevant document.

A month ago, an article was posted on "Pilot's personal minimums." That is one of the first articles I have seen in the beacon in a long time that taught something relevant, useful, and will prevent somebody from making an error that could kill. Articles of this calibre need to be authored more frequently.

We are all professionals. If we are going to commit ourselves to executing our missions successfully and safety, we need a safety publication that meets that high standard. The Safety Beacon as an idea is still very relevant. I believe that it needs to be taken to the next level.


Logged
Director of Emergency Services, Oklahoma Wing
Qualifications: MP, MO, MS, AOBD, MSA, MRO, MSO, TMP, UDF, WS

rsuncloud
Recruit

Posts: 8

Safety Consulting
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2015, 08:59:36 AM »

I read a lot of great suggestions and people saying someone else should do this or someone should do that.

How about YOU write something interesting, provocative, educational and send it to National or present it at your next meeting
Logged
My Goal is to find, develop and distribute world class training that not only meets the letter of the law, but teaches fundamental principles which allow employees to make safer, more economical decisions
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2015, 12:56:03 AM »


During my conversation with him I voiced part of my thoughts and concerns about the "State of Safety". One of the things he told me as we were talking was the difference between Safety Evolution and Safety Revolution. 

Perhaps we have to work within the context of what it is, we like CAP cannot make everyone happy, but we can try our best to keep them safe.

Hats off to the National Safety Team and their push to move forward

It'll be interesting to see how the safety program evolves.  The Safety Program is creature of a large bureaucracy so doubt"revolution" is a term likely to be more than unrealistic rhetoric.

There's abundant research and reams of data to support four and five point harnesses in aircraft, and even helmets for aircrew in some circumstances.  Our prior Wing Commander said he'd retrofit the older aircraft with four point harnesses.  New commander, new direction, and it doesn't look likely to happen.  Helmets are really a good idea if we're flying over broken, inhospitable terrain.  It would be a nice evolutionary step to allow members to wear 'em...  but they're not mentioned in 39-1, even in passing.  For several years the NTSB has listed engine failure as second most frequent "defining event" for aircraft accidents.  In September 2013 my Wing had three (3!!!) engine failures within a 24 hour period.  I heard rumors that other CAP wings in the Region were likewise enjoying a spate of engine problems.  I'm really surprised that no report addressing engine problems, maintenance, etc. hasn't been shared with aircrews and custodial squadrons.  Yet, we have several pages of direction in the national safety regs that describe in excruciating detail the type of reflective vests we must provide, and when/where they must be worn.  Maybe it's because the operations side (aircraft, anyhow) are their own fiefdom where Safety Officers (even at the National level) fear to tread.  At the moment I'm more than a bit skeptical that CAP is capable of having a meaningful, risk driven safety program.  I still hear slogans as the norm, rather than thoughtful assessments of risk, benefit, and mitigation.
Logged
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,967

« Reply #49 on: August 12, 2015, 04:26:55 PM »

Is there any data on the problems and benefits of wearing helmets in small aircraft like ours?
Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,471

« Reply #50 on: August 12, 2015, 04:31:14 PM »

Is there any data on the problems and benefits of wearing helmets in small aircraft like ours?

Not sure about actual statistical date, but I think it would be common sense to believe a helmet would decrease your chances of a head injury in the event of an accident. But in a 182, that's a very obnoxious thing to be wearing in that small proximity.

Risk Mitigation vs. Feasibility and Cost
Logged
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #51 on: August 12, 2015, 06:59:03 PM »

Is there any data on the problems and benefits of wearing helmets in small aircraft like ours?

There are other studies out there that the one listed below.  But this one is recent and on point.  Something to consider is the time we (search pilots and aircrew) have at our search altitude to brace for a crash if the engine hiccups or quits.  Basically, what is in front of us is what we'll hit.  In addition to SAR, we do SEL night and IMC flights, often over unlighted and inhospitable terrain.  A helmet in those circumstances will boost survival odds, perhaps by that small but critical margin.  Partial power loss is not all that uncommon in piston aircraft, nor are total engine failures.  FWIW, the NTSB lists engine issues as the second most prevalent "defining event" for GA aircraft accidents and fatalities.  While CAP might (????) be a bit better than the average for all GA, we don't have any silver bullets in our gun.  How many of us fly with our seat belts and shoulder harnesses tightened to 'crash' tensions?  Not many.  I can't reach the fuel shutoff or trim controls if my shoulder harness is really tight.  AND it's not very comfortable to be all bound up for extended periods of time. 

Do a google.com search on: 

Fatal and Serious Injury Accidents in Alaska: A Retrospective of the years 2004 through 2009 with Special Emphasis on Post Crash survival

By

Federal Aviation Administration, Aviation Safety
Alaskan Region

December 2010

« Last Edit: August 12, 2015, 07:09:23 PM by Live2Learn » Logged
THRAWN
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,874

« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2015, 08:42:54 AM »

This comes up from time to time. There have been big advances in the materials and design of helmets that are specifically designed for GA. Organic headsets, lighter materials, increased protection...all good things to prevent head injuries. The down side is the cost. Basic models cost about a grand. You also have to take into consideration that the materials don't last forever, so there is a certification period that needs to be remembered. I've always been kind of an advocate for helmets, in the air, on the bike, when you need it you'll wish you had it.
Logged
Strup
"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2015, 10:33:48 AM »

It would be really helpful if CAP would negotiate some price discounts with helmet retail or wholesale sellers.  Gentex helmets are used by a lot of crop dusters, but they are worth more than their weight in gold.  Alpha Eagle is likewise a bit pricey, and also heavy.  Some of the LSA helmets are lighter (probably very adequate for the energy dissipation needs in light, SE piston aircraft) and less spendy.  I've talked with some suppliers who say they might offer a 10% discount if multiple units were purchased. 

Awhile back I asked the National Commander to evaluate four and five point harness retrofits of our older aircraft, and to evaluate helmets as an OPTIONAL piece of PPE.  As might be expected, I heard nothing back, not even acknowledgement of my question and request.  Since then some concession was made by the outgoing Wing Commander to allow helmets as a personal option.  As I mentioned, the previous Wing commander said he'd put retrofitted harnesses "in the budget".  What goes in the budget is just as easily dropped.  I think the absence of a coherent policy on aircrew PPE comes back to the CAP Safety Program.  Is "safety" really a priority for CAP, or is it just another check the box function.  Regretfully, the later appears by word and deed to be the real motivation for the Safety Program.
Logged
A.Member
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,616

« Reply #54 on: August 13, 2015, 10:49:48 AM »

Is there any data on the problems and benefits of wearing helmets in small aircraft like ours?
Seriously?!

Start by making the case that this is something even worth discussing, then we can go from there.  You'll have a difficult time convincing me and I'm guessing nearly all pilots that this is a problem in need of a solution.

That said, this is well off topic.
Logged
"For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return." - Leonardo da Vinci
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,471

« Reply #55 on: August 13, 2015, 10:59:27 AM »

Is there any data on the problems and benefits of wearing helmets in small aircraft like ours?

There are other studies out there that the one listed below.  But this one is recent and on point.  Something to consider is the time we (search pilots and aircrew) have at our search altitude to brace for a crash if the engine hiccups or quits.  Basically, what is in front of us is what we'll hit.  In addition to SAR, we do SEL night and IMC flights, often over unlighted and inhospitable terrain.  A helmet in those circumstances will boost survival odds, perhaps by that small but critical margin.  Partial power loss is not all that uncommon in piston aircraft, nor are total engine failures.  FWIW, the NTSB lists engine issues as the second most prevalent "defining event" for GA aircraft accidents and fatalities.  While CAP might (????) be a bit better than the average for all GA, we don't have any silver bullets in our gun.  How many of us fly with our seat belts and shoulder harnesses tightened to 'crash' tensions?  Not many.  I can't reach the fuel shutoff or trim controls if my shoulder harness is really tight.  AND it's not very comfortable to be all bound up for extended periods of time. 

Do a google.com search on: 

Fatal and Serious Injury Accidents in Alaska: A Retrospective of the years 2004 through 2009 with Special Emphasis on Post Crash survival

By

Federal Aviation Administration, Aviation Safety
Alaskan Region

December 2010

That's an all-too-common issue, and it's a reasonable debate on both sides of the argument. On one end, you have the published way of what needs to be accomplished (regs), reinforcing standards (policies and procedures), and traditionally-taught way of doing things (best practices). On the other end, you get the "it doesn't work that way very well" crowd. Not every way of doing something works for everyone.

You ever go up with one instructor who says "Who taught you to do that?" You respond with "My last instructor." They say "Yeah, don't do that anymore...do it this way..." It's a cycle that repeats itself. Who's right?

When it comes to safety especially, some things just don't always work 100% of the time, including the measures put in place to protect you from hazards. That's where it needs to be decided whether or not it's a control that is reasonable enough to prevent injury without causing further impedance to performance. Sometimes the control heavily outweighs the performance end, and sometimes the control starts to diminish performance and quality. It's pertinent to not only have experts on the control side, but also those who perform that task on a regular basis to discuss how it might affect their ability to perform.

The advocacy side is even more difficult because now you have to convince someone that your way is better than how they've always been doing it. It's even more difficult when the cost of doing so lands on you, not the person telling you to do it this way.

Flight suit, helmet, headset, initial training costs...all stuff that you have to pay for yourself, not CAP. It starts to become "one more thing" you get stuck with.

I don't agree with ever reducing advocacy, because it comes back to bite you in a liability sense. It comes to me all the time in my job as a safety auditor. "Well, they should have known it wasn't a safe practice." "So how do you advocate not only being safe, but reporting unsafe acts by the individual that might go unnoticed." Major importance. But at the same time, when it comes to budgets, safety is often the first thing that starts to get slashed when people start feeling like it doesn't seem to apply much any more and it's becoming a waste of time and resources to impose.

Is there any data on the problems and benefits of wearing helmets in small aircraft like ours?
Seriously?!

Start by making the case that this is something even worth discussing, then we can go from there.  You'll have a difficult time convincing me and I'm guessing nearly all pilots that this is a problem in need of a solution.

That said, this is well off topic.

Kind of agreed. As a pilot, I wouldn't be wholly opposed to wearing a helmet, if supplied. But do I need one? Do I have to pay for it myself? Meh...

And is there any topic on here that stays on track?  :P
Logged
Alaric
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 782

« Reply #56 on: August 13, 2015, 12:41:20 PM »

Is there any data on the problems and benefits of wearing helmets in small aircraft like ours?

There are other studies out there that the one listed below.  But this one is recent and on point.  Something to consider is the time we (search pilots and aircrew) have at our search altitude to brace for a crash if the engine hiccups or quits.  Basically, what is in front of us is what we'll hit.  In addition to SAR, we do SEL night and IMC flights, often over unlighted and inhospitable terrain.  A helmet in those circumstances will boost survival odds, perhaps by that small but critical margin.  Partial power loss is not all that uncommon in piston aircraft, nor are total engine failures.  FWIW, the NTSB lists engine issues as the second most prevalent "defining event" for GA aircraft accidents and fatalities.  While CAP might (????) be a bit better than the average for all GA, we don't have any silver bullets in our gun.  How many of us fly with our seat belts and shoulder harnesses tightened to 'crash' tensions?  Not many.  I can't reach the fuel shutoff or trim controls if my shoulder harness is really tight.  AND it's not very comfortable to be all bound up for extended periods of time. 

Do a google.com search on: 

Fatal and Serious Injury Accidents in Alaska: A Retrospective of the years 2004 through 2009 with Special Emphasis on Post Crash survival

By

Federal Aviation Administration, Aviation Safety
Alaskan Region

December 2010

That's an all-too-common issue, and it's a reasonable debate on both sides of the argument. On one end, you have the published way of what needs to be accomplished (regs), reinforcing standards (policies and procedures), and traditionally-taught way of doing things (best practices). On the other end, you get the "it doesn't work that way very well" crowd. Not every way of doing something works for everyone.

You ever go up with one instructor who says "Who taught you to do that?" You respond with "My last instructor." They say "Yeah, don't do that anymore...do it this way..." It's a cycle that repeats itself. Who's right?

When it comes to safety especially, some things just don't always work 100% of the time, including the measures put in place to protect you from hazards. That's where it needs to be decided whether or not it's a control that is reasonable enough to prevent injury without causing further impedance to performance. Sometimes the control heavily outweighs the performance end, and sometimes the control starts to diminish performance and quality. It's pertinent to not only have experts on the control side, but also those who perform that task on a regular basis to discuss how it might affect their ability to perform.

The advocacy side is even more difficult because now you have to convince someone that your way is better than how they've always been doing it. It's even more difficult when the cost of doing so lands on you, not the person telling you to do it this way.

Flight suit, helmet, headset, initial training costs...all stuff that you have to pay for yourself, not CAP. It starts to become "one more thing" you get stuck with.

I don't agree with ever reducing advocacy, because it comes back to bite you in a liability sense. It comes to me all the time in my job as a safety auditor. "Well, they should have known it wasn't a safe practice." "So how do you advocate not only being safe, but reporting unsafe acts by the individual that might go unnoticed." Major importance. But at the same time, when it comes to budgets, safety is often the first thing that starts to get slashed when people start feeling like it doesn't seem to apply much any more and it's becoming a waste of time and resources to impose.

Is there any data on the problems and benefits of wearing helmets in small aircraft like ours?
Seriously?!

Start by making the case that this is something even worth discussing, then we can go from there.  You'll have a difficult time convincing me and I'm guessing nearly all pilots that this is a problem in need of a solution.

That said, this is well off topic.

Kind of agreed. As a pilot, I wouldn't be wholly opposed to wearing a helmet, if supplied. But do I need one? Do I have to pay for it myself? Meh...

And is there any topic on here that stays on track?  :P

No
Logged
RiverAux
Too Much Free Time Award

Posts: 10,967

« Reply #57 on: August 13, 2015, 06:02:12 PM »

Is there any data on the problems and benefits of wearing helmets in small aircraft like ours?
Seriously?!

Start by making the case that this is something even worth discussing, then we can go from there.  You'll have a difficult time convincing me and I'm guessing nearly all pilots that this is a problem in need of a solution.

That said, this is well off topic.

All I did was ask if there was any data to back up the proposal made in a previous post. 
Logged
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #58 on: August 14, 2015, 01:47:05 PM »



All I did was ask if there was any data to back up the proposal made in a previous post.

Your question was a good one, and NO this discussion of PPE is not "off topic".  If the Beacon is to be relevant it has to address and discuss topics like personal protective equipment and cockpit modifications/accessories that increase survivability and reduce injury.  CAP mission profiles are definitely higher hazard and higher risk that the average GA flight. 

As far as 'data' is concerned, there's a ton of data compiled the military that addresses helmets (why do we see helmets in all tactical aircraft...?)  I've heard that a discussion of helmets, with recent accidents as fodder, is nearing publication in the FAA Alaska Region. 

NOAA also has some interesting stuff from which indicated PPE and related cockpit accessories can be drawn.  Do a google search on "NOAA small aircraft crash survivability" and see what you get.  One very interesting power point by Dr. Anthony Brickhouse of Embry Riddles's Daytona campus is titled "The Science of Survivability".  It's a down loadable PDF.



Logged
TheSkyHornet
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,471

« Reply #59 on: August 14, 2015, 02:28:07 PM »



All I did was ask if there was any data to back up the proposal made in a previous post.

Your question was a good one, and NO this discussion of PPE is not "off topic".  If the Beacon is to be relevant it has to address and discuss topics like personal protective equipment and cockpit modifications/accessories that increase survivability and reduce injury.  CAP mission profiles are definitely higher hazard and higher risk that the average GA flight. 

As far as 'data' is concerned, there's a ton of data compiled the military that addresses helmets (why do we see helmets in all tactical aircraft...?)  I've heard that a discussion of helmets, with recent accidents as fodder, is nearing publication in the FAA Alaska Region. 

NOAA also has some interesting stuff from which indicated PPE and related cockpit accessories can be drawn.  Do a google search on "NOAA small aircraft crash survivability" and see what you get.  One very interesting power point by Dr. Anthony Brickhouse of Embry Riddles's Daytona campus is titled "The Science of Survivability".  It's a down loadable PDF.

As always, the data may exist, but the next step is to convince someone going off of that data to consider the option, accept is as the best course of action, and implement it.

That's the very, very challenging part of safety. Awareness is generally easy. Advocacy, on-paper, is easy if you have an audience willing to hear you out. Getting them to actually go by your message is a whole new ballgame.
Logged
Live2Learn
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 667

« Reply #60 on: August 14, 2015, 04:56:54 PM »

As always, the data may exist, but the next step is to convince someone going off of that data to consider the option, accept is as the best course of action, and implement it.

That's the very, very challenging part of safety. Awareness is generally easy. Advocacy, on-paper, is easy if you have an audience willing to hear you out. Getting them to actually go by your message is a whole new ballgame.

Yep.  Nice summary of the issue and a follow up problem statement.  When I hear CAP "safety officers" among the apologists for the status quo it's clear there ain't likely to be much movement in view point or action.  I don't think mandating helmets would be necessary to see increased adoption.  Some level of adoption would like occur if CAP would negotiate a preferred price schedule with a couple of suppliers who offer equipment at different cost strata.  I tried a Faro helmet last winter that was fairly comfortable, with ANR included priced about  $400.  that.  That's a whole lot more palatable than a Gentex at $1600.  David Clark's helmet is known to have made at least three 'saves' in Alaska.  I'm told it's comfortable, but the company says it won't handle LightSpeed or Bose headsets.  Bummer.
Logged
rsuncloud
Recruit

Posts: 8

Safety Consulting
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2015, 08:36:21 PM »

I sat in a meeting today and listened to an Introduction To Behavior Based Safety.  The speaker told us the way to get Buy In was to ask the Employee (read volunteer) what needs to change to be more safe.
Is there value in BBS.
Can CAP find a way to use this?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2015, 11:26:26 PM by JC004 » Logged
My Goal is to find, develop and distribute world class training that not only meets the letter of the law, but teaches fundamental principles which allow employees to make safer, more economical decisions
MovingOnToOtherThings
Salty & Seasoned Contributor

Posts: 1,300

« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2015, 09:10:32 PM »

I sat in a meeting today and listened to an Introduction To Behavior Based Safety.  The speaker told us the way to get Buy In was to as the Employee (read volunteer) what needs to change to be more safe.
Is there value in BBS.
Can CAP find a way to use this?

BBS is an excellent approach to developing and improving a Safety Culture. There are a couple of things that are key in the implementation of BBS.

1) The people that are instructing BBS have to be SME in their approach and able to show you and the organization how it can be beneficial within your current organization. '
2) It is not a system that can be approached overnight and expect immediate results. It may only take months to do the base training for it, but it will take years for it to work within the culture. Old behaviors and attitudes are difficult to address.
3) BBS is on the baseline program. It gives you a guide on how to address the behavior but the people and their participation are the most important cultural element.
4) BBS processes and approach have shown significant  results and then kind of level out. it is very important to keep the "program" alive through retraining and new approaches. The "Cycle" of success will last about 3 years and then it will need a reboot.
5) The program MUST be spearheaded by the Organizational Leadership, they have to be active or it will die quickly.

Safestart is a BBS program and an excellent organizational tool to address known behaviors.....it has to be implemented in their methodology.

I have been lucky in that within my 25+ plus years of Safety that most of that has been spent teaching and implementing a BBS system with very large corporations and several years as a Safestart Instructor.

Excellent programs if properly utilized.
Logged
Always seeking to learn.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [All] Print 
CAP Talk  |  Operations  |  Safety  |  Topic: Should the Safety Beacon be scaled back or discontinued?
 


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP SMF 2.0.14 | SMF © 2017, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.308 seconds with 25 queries.
click here to email me